WWYD Horse Traders edition OT
Just looking for some general advice on relative "fairness" and what I should do in a sticky situation.
I have known this horse trainer for about 3-4 years. I first kept a horse I purchased at her boarding barn.. paid faithfully each month and paid her to give me lessons and work with the horse. Ulitmately I decided to sell that horse and she helped me sell him and I paid her a 10% commission.
Fast forward a year or so later.. I went back to her for a horse she had listed for sale. Paid her asking price plus paid for 30 more days of training.. had about 5500 in the horse at that time. Horse was young... but she said he was quiet and I rode him once at her place.. and then brought him home to my place.. Well.. as we knkow life gets in the way.. horse didn't seem totally quiet the first few days.. so I just worked with him on the ground etc.. but he wasn't as settled as he could have been. I had hopes of finding someone to come help me at home (I was a few hours from her place now.. so that wasn't an option).. but found that difficult.. horse becomes a pasture ornament for about a year and a half.. (during which my DH and I both ended up with some health issues etc.. ).
Finally got to the point where I told my DH we needed to sell him if we weren't going to be able to use him. (side note.. had a neighbor that gave the horse a lot of treats.. which made him more nippy than he should have been.. long story hard to get this guy to stop doing it.. but felt getting the horse gone would be part of that solution).
So.. called this trainer.. hey.. can you sell him? he hasn't been doing much of anything in a year or so.. so would need refresher.
She said.. "yes.. I have a market for a horse like that.. can probably get you what you paid. I might buy him myself and rell or. shoot.. I may even want to keep him for myself or ride him through the summer and sell him as a hunt horse in the fal.. I will come get him tomorrow".
No outright talk of comission.. but I paid 10% prior.. and she made it seem like a quick sale was probably likely. or she would buy him and resell him.. or maybe keep him.
She comes to get him and when she ties him in the trailer.. he spooked and ended up running around the property like a moron for over an hour.. not letting us catch him... yeah.. not his finest moment.. but the WORST thing he had ever done that I have ever seen... and I think it was that he wasn't used to the trailer and she just did it too quick and had him tied tight and he got scared.. then us trying to catch him.. and she got mad that I suggested using food in a bucket to lure him.. it was a bit of a crap show.. but we got him loaded.
Anyway.. I don't hound her for info.. figure I will give her time to asess him at her place and that she will let me know what she thinks when it's convenient to her..
About 3 week in she sends me a text.. he is settling in.. ground is frozen but she will try to ride him soon.
It's 3 weeks more.. I finally contact her to see how he is doing. oh.. he is walk, trot cantering fine.. comes galloping to her in the field.. all good.
another month.. and she says.. he is riding ok.. but not settling as much as she hoped.. (again.. it's literally weeks between me hearing feedback and nothing bad really) Maybe she would send him to a sale? She said she thought he could sell between 3 and 7K.. probably in the higher end.. basically.
Then radio silence again..
Finally she says he sold.. but she "didn't know the sales math".. and then come to find out... SHE didn't take him to a sale.. she sent him to some sale out of state... so she had to pay to have him hauled there.. fee for the lady.. fees to the sale house etc.. AND the lady let him get sold for less than she thought he should have gotten.
She said she would be getting check from the sale barn the next week.. would let me know.
again.. I patiently wait for an update.. a bit irritated that she didn't give me full disclosure on what she was doing.. but hoped for the best.
Horse sold for 4300 she said (later said 4200.. so story changed a bit).. gave me a rundown of fees that totaled about 900 bucks.. so I asked what she thought was fair.. would 3K be fair.. she got kind of "well.. i'm losing my ass on this.. but that's fine)
over the next coupld MONTHS as I try to follow up on where my money is from the horse.. she starts giving me all sorts of extra things that went wrong.. he broke round pen panels.. broke a gate.. kicked a farm hand.. she had to send him out to another trainer to ride (which she never told me about.... which seems to be a pattern at this point).... she will just send some other horses to the kill auction (obv to make me feel bad about wanting to be paid for the horse I trusted her to sell for me.. a horse that she had sold to me and already made money on once before)..
She doesn't have stamps.. that goes on for weeks.. I offer to send her a self addressed envelope.. weeks again later and I still didn't have anything..
Anyway.. I finally got the envelope from her.. a signed blank check..........
I sent her a text... asking her if she wanted me to fill it out.. she said.. yes.. that I could write it for "whatever.. but she has already lost money.. even if I didn't take a dime for the horse)..a horse she supposedly sold for over 4K.. she made "nothing"..
I wrote back that I thought we had agreed on $3K which was like 1300 less than the horse brought at auction.. and honestly and while I didn't say it to her,.. I felt that she didn't give me full disclosure on all of it.. I didn't think I should lose more because she never told me she was sending him OUT OF STATE.. I thought she was taking somewhere more local herself.. she made the decision to send him with someone.. and later tells me she sent him to a trainer (she is a trainer herself).. I didn't "OK" those extra costs.. and I'm sorry her panels got broken.. but as a horse trainer.. those kinds of things are par for the course.. sometimes a horse will break your equipment.. it's not like I had any choice in how she was handling him.. who knows what caused it all.. he never broke out of my pens or fences?
so she says if I write a check for $3K it will pretty much wipe her out.. and she has lost apparently thousands on this horse.. which.. I'm not really 100% believing. and if it was that bad.. why didn't she tell me before?
The worst she told me is he got nippy and that was due to the treats.. now she is saying he got "mean".. and honestly.. he was not much different in attitude than when I got him.. so I feel like she maybe wasn't totally honest when she sold him to begin with.
So.. sorry for the long saga.. this has been going on since early FEBRUARY.. I "think" the horse was sold in April (never provided any documentation ... just going by what she is saying to me). She has been stringing the "check in the mail" game with me since May timeframe.
So.. do I write the check for $3k and hope it cashes... knowing I may never get another check from her again?
Do I write the check for some amount less.. 2500?
Do I just let her off the hook and take no money?
I don't worry about working with her again.. after this experience.. no way.. but I am trying to be fair.. and it kind of pisses me off now she is expecting I'm going to reimburse her for trainer fees to someone else.. months after the fact when I was told nothign about it.. being asked to replace equipment when I hadn't heard a thing about that either till I started "hounding" her about pmt..
I feel like I'm just hearing a lot of stories.
And... I also am not interested in going to court over this... I would love to know more of the truth of what he really sold for.. but in the end.. I don't think it would get me far.. to go that route.. and honestly.. I just want to take my small amount of money.. whatever that is and put it behind me.
what would you guys do? what would you write the check for? or would you believe her full sob story and let her keep it all?
(just a side note.. my DH is out of work right now.. this money really would help us make ends meet)
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Comments
I would take the 3000 with no
I would take the 3000 with no hesitation. Try not to let your kindness get in the way because this is a business deal. She's been giving you the runaround for too long and she has my hinkeymeter twitching. Are you sure he sold for the price she quoted?
i really have no idea.. she
i really have no idea.. she told me 4300 once.. then 4200 another time.. all the other costs like the broken panels and trainer fees (which I never gave her permission to spend).. those are all coming up after the fact.
I guess I could try to contact the sale barn.. not sure if they would release any information to me.. since the horse was sold under her name.. or maybe even under the name of someone else she sent the horse with.
but.. in the end... I am not sure I want to know..lol.. I have a feeling that might not even be the truth.
I would think $3,000 would be
I would think $3,000 would be fair for you to cash the check at.
She can't expect you to pay for expenses that you did not previously agree to, that's absurd. If she was having issues and had to change the plan or couldn't sell the horse as was originally discussed she should have communicated that with you to figure out a plan B. That lack of communication is on her, not you.
I would feel bad that it's going to "wipe her out" but that was of her own making, she made the decisions that led to all of this without communicating, and is on her. Not to mention she agreed to $3,000. Her financial decisons/issues are not your own, there are so many people these days that are financially irrisponsible and living beyond their means or prioritizing wants over needs. She very well may be one of those people, and it is not your responsiblity to support her.
Her choices are her own and
Her choices are her own and her passive aggressive attempts to guilt you into paying her more than what she earned or what was fair is something that only you can check by putting the amount you believe the experience to be worth. I would do your due diligence and call the place that sold the horse to find out how much exactly he sold for, the fees are and calculate it from there. Send her the check and make sure you put "Final Payment for Services in FULL" on the MEMO line.
This all sounds extremely
This all sounds extremely scammy. She sold you this horse, under what I believe were false pretenses, since he wasn't as good as she promised. She made money on you once. Then you decide to ask her to help you sell him and you make a deal. She fails to communicate, changes the plan, and then tries to guilt you out of your money due to "issues" that she didn't communicate at the time they occurred, but instead, months later when payment came due. Something doesn't add up. Makes me think that she may be scamming and needed your money to settle a different debt so she is claiming "issues" to try to get you to compensate. A "rob Peter to pay Paul" if you will.
I would cash the check for $3k. That is what you both agreed to. Once she picked that horse up, any damages or changes to the plan are on her and at her expense. If she was struggling with the horse being destructive or struggling to sell him, then she should have communicated that so a different plan could be sorted out. All of this is on her and if it bankrupts her, then so be it, but personally, I think she is scamming and you aren't her first victim.
I don't know anything about
I don't know anything about horses or the horse business, but if she is running a barn and training facility no wonder she is losing her ass. And your horse has nothing to do with it. She surely deducts cost of facility repair on her taxes, carries insurance for the farm hand, etc. These can't be unusual occurences. She's probably got herself into a financial pickle unrelated to your horse.
Sure, the business details should have been sorted up front. But she was trustworthy before so understandable. Is there a way to find out how much the horse sold for? I think I'd put a little time into that to see how big the lie is that she's telling you. If it sold at the top of the range, then you can lose any guilt whatsoever over cashing her check. If at the low end, you can decide what you are comfortable with.
She's provided you with excuses -- not evidence of expenses or revenue. Not exactly a healthy business practice.
Write the Check…
For $3K. That was the deal she agreed to. You are taking a big hit, even at that number. Her decisions to send the horse out of state are on her. She told you SHE would sell the horse or keep it. SHE changed the terms.
Can she accuse you of stealing the cheque?
I don't get why she sent a blank cheque. You could put $30,000 or $0 or $3,000. It just strikes me that there has to be a catch here somewhere but since I'm not in the USA I don't know what the potential problem could be.
I don't think it's illegal if
I don't think it's illegal if I could show the intent was for me to fill in an agreed amount. I mean.. you go to the grocery store and they have those automated check printer things.. that you just sign the check but don't have to fill it out..
My personal feelings about her doing it are in two camps.
First.. she knows I'm a fairly honest person.. and a "nice" person and that I would probably contact her when I got it to confirm what she wanted me to do.. and that she would have another swing at making me feel like a jerk for wanting to get a fair amount back from her selling my horse.. and that I might just write off the whole thing and not try to cash it for "anything".
Second,
She has had excuse.. after excuse about "check in the mail" with me.. She has literally been stringing me on with "waiting for sale yard proceeds in May".. through "I don't even have a credit card.. never go to the post office.. have no stamps" (so I finally mailed her a self addressed stamped envelope).. to it was "on the counter.. my DH was supposed to mail it".. to no answer.. to me finally getting a blank check in August.. like 4 months after she supposedly sold the horse. so, maybe she thought I would put it in the mail back to her asking her to fill it out? extending and delaying again when I would have to be paid.
I just really think she was hoping I would feel sorry for her and take nothing though.. she even went through a "my husband left me" during one of our exhanges.. when the next exchange.. it was that "he was supposed to put it in the mail".. so who knows if he left.. came back.. never left.. who knows if she really spent money on a trainer.. if the horse really was an ahole and broke some panels.. because I hear none of that until after the horse is supposedly sold.. and she is whining about losing her a$$.
Hindsight is 20/20.. but since I dealt with her before.. she had sold the horse to me (so he should have been a somewhat known quantity to her).. I expected the same type of outcome.. obv.. not the same outcome.
And.. honestly.. I don't think I would have such a problem if she had been more up front and communicated how things were going.. other than telling me "fine".. then finding out later.. things were not fine.. that she barely spent any time with the horse herself before shunting him over to some third party that I didn't know about.. then getting him listed on an auction before she had even asked me.. and when she did ask me about the possibility.. in no way did she provide any details.. I told her to let me know w hat she decided was best.. she never did.. but I think the horse was sold prior to that anyway.
3K was the deal
Id put that amount in.
She sounds fishy. I dang well hope the check doesnt bounce. I mean who gives a person a blank check. Maybe someone with no money in that account? Hope Im wrong.
Good luck
Whatever amount you decide
Whatever amount you decide take it to her bank if possible to cash vs. depositing into your account. That way you know right away if it is good or not and no fees on your end.
The horse market is
The horse market is absolutely insane right now. I would bet she #1 got more money than low $4s unless it was a desperation sale, #2 incurred said expenses elsewhere and #3 that horse was sold well before she informed you.
I'd put money on her offloading that horse at the first opportunity because she needed the funds elsewhere, stringing along your monthly expenses to bring the balance due to you as low as possible.
Regardless of what name the horse was sold under, paperwork exists. Whether he showed up to the sale vetted or the barn vet was there, someone pulled a coggins. If he crossed state lines he also had a health certificate (which is valid for a limited number of days). Any decent auction house keeps records. Despite what the "end slaughter" movement would suggest, most auction houses are not run by shady evil-doers.
I'd be a dog on a bone regardless of the money. If she "doesn't know" anything about what/where/when that animal sold she certainly doesn't care that the horse was misrepresented. He absolutely was.
When you're down to just the money side of things, I'd confirm in writing (text, email, whatever) that the $3k was what was agreed so you don't know why she sent it blank but that's what you'll be doing. Then do it.
$4300 subtract x months in board, subtract (from the sounds of it) a handful of training rides, and then 10% commission = less than $3k. I'd believe she was out more than $1,300 if I didn't think she dumped the horse ASAP. She should be able to provide you with sales paperwork to prove otherwise, though. She won't, because she's not being honest. Consider it a lesson learned. Just make sure you get confirmation of the $3k = closed deal in some form of writing.
Ugh. All of us horse people are crazy in one way or another but man the dishonest ones just ruin it for everyone.
What I ended up doing (and
What I ended up doing (and fortunately almost all communication was via text or facebook messenger) was ask her for confirmation that she wanted me to fill out the check.. she said yes... I then asked if she wanted me to fill it out for 3K as we agreed (which I do have prior messages re that). She said.. "I don't care.. you write it for zero.. I lost money.. then listed what she claims happened.. panel damages.. sent to a trainer etc.. ).. I then said.. well we had agreed on $3k.. but I will go ahead and do it for $2500 to cover that out of pocket trainer cost you are claiming.. too.. She said "that's fine".. so that's what I have gone with.
I have reached out to the auction house to see if there is any way they can provide me with information regarding the horse sale... but haven't heard back from them as of yet. Not because I would try to get more.. but just to try to understand what happened in reality.
I did do an online deposit.. still have the actual paper check in my possession.. i deposited yesterday.. so hopefully it will stay "in" my account.
Horse people can be super crazy.. and lots of gray area in how things can be relayed or represented. In this case.. I'm pretty sure that I'm not getting much of the story since she has not given me one piece of proof of any of it.. the only things I have found have been from my own digging... like seeing his picture on that sales facebook page after she at least told me where he had gone.
I kind of agree.. she did not keep him long.. she has a breeding operation and sells her other horses.. for well over $5K to over 10K. I think she probably needed to make some bill payment and my horse ended up being convenient.. or he was a butthead and she didn't feel like messing with him.. or he hurt her (part draft is a big horse..lol).. and she didn't want to admit it. It's frustrating that she was not as forthright as she should have been... certainly.. why would you send someone's horse to another trainer if you are a trainer yourself.. especially without letting the owner know you are doing that.. just really odd and super poor business practices.
I don't think I will be hearing from her much in the future.. lol.. at least I hope not. I hope the check just stays cashed.. and I can just move on.
I grew up with horses and while I don't have any now,
I grew up with horses, and while I don't have any now, my sister makes her living in the horse world. I ran this by her and she said she thinks you should take the $3,000 as that is what was initially agreed. It was her choice to send the horse out of state to sell and broken panels are the cost of doing business in the horse world. My sister also thinks this whole thing sounds very shady. It is like this woman got in over her head with the horse and is trying to make you pay the literal cost.
I would make a copy of the check, or take a picture of it, and agree taking it to her bank would be a good idea. The horse world can sure be a difficult place and there are lots of "less than reliable" people in it. Sorry you had to deal with all of this!