Poll and Opinion.. Other Parent's custody time issues.
So, this is not me.. but someone I know.... and she is the BM...but wants to know what is appropriate.. boundaries.. etc.. re her Exes' custody time. Specifically.. when her children have sporting events.
BM and EX have two kids.. ~9 and ~4 years old. Both kids play sports... the team games tend to be on the same days though not at the exact same times. EX is a coach for one of the teams his kid plays on. They are not on the best terms.. but have been able to communicate "some". Custody time has been set.. but some things are in the process of being finalized with their divorce/custody details. (just to paint the picture).
BM wants to be supportive of her kid's activities and wants to go see them when they play... even if the game falls on a weekend that is her Exes' custody time. My POV is that is fine, but not an obligation on her part... but here are the Poll issues.
1. If you go see your kid's games and there is a long break between one kid's and the other kid's.. should the (at the moment.. they have joint.. 50/50.. so I just mean it's not their weekend) NCP parent stay at the ball field for the long break between games? Is it ok to leave, then come back for the 2nd game later in the day?
2. If you get to the game and find that one of your children (the younger one) is being looked after by another mother on the team, do you step in and "take your child" from them. The EX is there at the game, but is busy coaching.. so he has arranged competent care.. but is it your right to step in and "take" your kid to watch them.. or do you sit there and watch your other child.. letting the other person care for your kid? This is again, the younger kid.. he can't just watch by themselves.
My own personal POV on this is that this is your Exes's time.. it is their right and obligation to care for the kids without interference by the other parent. I do think it's ok for parents to go to a game to watch when it is the other parent's time, but to not overly step in and be actively participating with the kids.. again.. not to overstep.
So, for 1. my vote is.. it's perfectly fine.. and in fact preferable if the NCP leaves for the long break between games.. it is the Exes' responsibility to care for and to take kids for a meal.. whatever.. it's his time.
2. It's a bit mixed here. I know it is hard for her to see someone else watching her child... but it's her Exes' obligation ... responsibility to ensure his kids are supervised.. I am confllicted in that I don't think the BM should necessarily interfere.. and this doesn't really rise to the ROFR kind of situation.. because the Ex IS present.. just not able to primarily supervise.. but could easily step in at any moment if needed. In fact.. BM should not want such a restrictive ROFR policy.. because does that mean that the EX gets to override her choice of letting her father or grandparents watch the child?.. or other trusted people.. if she is only not there for a short period of time? I mean.. is her stepping in and relieving the other person's obligation to watch her child.. good or bad? I'm a bit stumped at what is the right answer here. Is she interfering with her Exes's decisions by doing it.. or is she just taking on a responsibility she should have as a Bio parent?
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You can not dictate
What another adult person should do. If they stay or leave and come back. Is one not your concern, life may dictate staying one day and leaving another day. What a parent does on there custody time, also is not your concern. She arranges for someone to watch her kid. At a game she is 20 feet away. Is not your concern. Actually that something that is great. She could just sit the kid in a chair by themselves to watch the game
I am asking more from the BM
I am asking more from the BM POV.
Should she "parent" her kids if it is not her time.. if she happens to be in the same vicinity.. like going to watch them play sports?
I can see the logic for stepping in and watching your child vs just sitting back and having a non-related person watch them..
I can also see how it might be confusing to young kids.. mommy ignoring me..
But, it's also the other parent's custody time.. and while I think it's ok to go watch the kids play.. it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be going overboard.. interfering with their ability to have time with their kids.
So, maybe the right thing is to take the responsibility of watching the younger child from the teammate's mom while you are there.. but when the game is over.. and you leave... you pass back control to that person(or your EX if he is now freed up).
But.. watching the game doesn't mean you constantly try to have your children's attention.. they are there to play the game.. and any "parenting" should generally be primarily the person whose custody time it is... so in the situation where he had another parent watching the younger while he coached the older kid's game.. it was ok for her to step in and help since she was there? but once EX is free.. she backs off again? and doesn't hang about between games to spend time with her kids.. since it's dad's time.
I was a BM but I think my
I was a BM but I think my opinion on this is a one off. I would have been good w/ Dad showing up to everything. But when I showed up to cheer on the kiddo and it was Dad time? I'd have gone as a spectator. Unfortunately that never happened even once because dad sucked lima beans.
Now my Mr,'s situation? He and I would do cheer on his son on Mom time but we were spectators. We didn't parent on her time. We went watched, waved or said hi then left. On her time she was the parent in charge. She hated it when we went but she hated everything so ......
I guess the issue I see is if
I guess the issue I see is if the younger child is like “I want to go be with mommy”, “I want to sit with mommy”, “why can’t I go be with mommy!” Is that really a hill the “caregiver” and the ex are going to die on? If so then yeah the BM should probably leave in between games.
That was a bit the way I was
That was a bit the way I was leaning.
When dad asked another parent to watch his younger child while he was coaching.. BM was not there. When she got there to watch the game.. she went and got the younger from the person her EX asked to watch the child. Dad was "there" but obviously not focused on the younger since he was coaching.. he would have been able to step in if need be.. but you can't just trust a 5 yo kid to sit quietly and not get into things. So he asked another parent to help.. if BM had been there... he might have asked her I guess.. but apparently the caregiving ask happened before she arrived.
In this case.. the "hey.. thanks for watching YK.. I will take him while we are watching the game".. but once the game would be over.. and her EX was available.. the younger kid is sent over to dad.. and she should probably busy herself elsewhere rather than hang around and be a distraction for her kids.
This is kind of a new situation for everyone.. I don't hate that she took the kid from the other parent.. like.. "hey.. just got here.. I can watch him till EX is done coaching" but any more hanging about and taking her kid's attention from their dad on "his" time is overstepping.. and she needs to know that.. even if kids want her to take them to lunch.. whatever.. she needs to respect that it's her Ex'es time.
I also cautioned that you don't want ROFR to be too stringent.. because you don't want it coming into play if you want to go on a date for the evening and get a babysitter necessarily.. or let your parents take their grandkid for a daytrip or something..If you are going to be unavailable.. basically the whole custody time.. then.. yeah.. perhaps then.
That has never specifically
That has never specifically come up for me (multiple kids with games at same event), but i'll give my 2 cents as a BM of now adult kids. I would go and spectate for the game. I wouldn't sit by my ex or horn in with the other kid and whoever is sitting with them. I would maybe go say hi and give them a hug and say "Ok, go sit with Ms. X, i'll see you on (whatever day!) Love you!" I wouldn't hang around between games unless i had other people to hang out with. Otherwise it might be tempting to go hang around the other kid. If the kid was like "Mommmmeee!!!" I would matter-of-factly and cheerfully say "You're with your dad this weekend, and Ms. X is watching you. Stay with her and do what she says." Don't look sad or worried, make it sound like it's all part of the plan and the adults have everything under control.
I'm all about just applying
I'm all about just applying common sense, but I know a lot of people cannot do that in a divorce, especially early on.
1. Yes, I agree that she should leave between games.
2. I think that if the coparenting relationship is contentious, this is a lose-lose situation. If she "ignores" her kid, she risks the child thinking she doesn't care about him AND being painted as a disinterested, deadbeat mom by the other parents. If she proactively steps in and takes over care of her kid, then she risks upsetting her ex and being accused by observers of overstepping.
In a normal situation, she could shoot her ex a text in advance and say, "do you need someone to watch younger kiddo during the game? I'm happy to help if you'd like." And then respect whatever his response is. But if he's going to twist that into her being overbearing, then what can she do? It sucks, but I would show up right when the game starts, take a seat, and only engage with my younger child when they approached me. As a mom, I can't even begin to say how much I would hate that, but I think it's really her only option unless the ex can behave like a rational adult.
I have a recently divorced friend whose ex regularly sends their kids to spend the night with other families on his time. It isn't unusual for her to arrive at a social gathering where people have brought their kids and discover that her children are there because they were spending the night with another family in attendance. Her ex isn't there, none of us are friends with him and never will be. The situation is super awkward for her because if he finds out she "parented" in any way during "his time" he will go out of his way to make her life hell. To the point that if her kids ask if they can have a soda, she'll have to say, "that's up to <mom you're spending the night with>" lest he find that she said they couldn't have a soda or whatever. It's the most insane and inflexible dynamic I have ever witnessed and it is simply terrible for the children. It raises my blood pressure just thinking about how infuriating the whole thing is.
I’m curious
if dad make the request to the team parent prior to the game or was it just a "hey, watch my kid while I coach your kid" situation (which I have had done to me... grr...) If it was prearranged and he had provided books, cars, snacks, etc. then no, because he was still parenting his kid. If the younger kid was just expected to sit there, then yeah, it would be appropriate for mom to offer her services. My kids were five years apart and so we had to deal with the bored younger and factor his needs into his older brother's schedule.
Just my take.
A KISS thing I think.
1. BM should do whatever she wants to do. Stay between events. Leave between the events. Have a gourmet catered foody lunch brought to the sports fields for herself. Etc... Okay, maybe not that.
2. I think that this is kinda a non issue. If BM wants to sit by her younger child to watch the elder child play, she should do it. It is not a matter of interfering in the other team mom watching the younger kid, or even that it is dad's time. It is not about Daddy's time Vs BM's time. The thought of sitting away from and ignoring my youngest as a BM (which I clearly am not) is so far beyond passing the smell test that I would not consider it. Sit with your kid. Not a ROFR thing IMHO. Just a "Hey kid, how is the game going?" and sit down thing. Talk with the team mom. BM wants to get a drink, get up and get a drink. Then return to sit with the kid. The kid wants something? Bring it back when the BM returns from the snackbar.
So much of blended family/CO life is so over complicated against how simple it is in reality that IMHO BM should not even worry about it.
If coach daddy saw BM sitting with the youngest and took exception, it would be game on for me if I was BM in this scenario.
But what if you were stepdad
But what if you were stepdad and the Spermidiot showed up to things and horned in? Dealing with joint custody, especially 50/50, where both parents live near each other can be so disruptive and messy. If everyone involved tries to be respectful of each person's CO'd time, it just goes easier. A parent will always want to show up for their kids but nobody needs drama at every T-ball game. Preparation and boundaries go a long way in preventing that.
The stated situation is simple IMHO. Though not all are.
It would be something entirely different if BioDad had a DW there with the younger COD and BM "horned in". That would clearly be over stepping IMHO.
Watching a kid's sports event or any other COD school event is IMHO not horning in on or disrespecting the other parent's time in a local visitation situation. The parent whose time it is not, attending, sitting in a different section from the parent whose time it is allows all the parents/Sparents/SSibs/halfsibs/GPs, etc... to attend respectfully.
Fortunately, DW had full physical and legal, and we never lived within 1200 miles of the SpermIdiot. That, and not once in 16+ years did anyone in the SpermClan ever engage in SS's life beyond long distance visitation in SpermLand. Not even a graduation card, birthday card, etc. The only SPermClan member who ever was in our area of residency was a GGF who would fly to pick SS up and return him to SpermLand for visitation. Once the GGPs all passed, and before SS reached the age where he could fly unaccompanied it was some random friend of SpermGrandHag's or it was the Hags daughter's MIL who had an adult child in our city who would pick up and escort SS to SpermLand visitation. There were occasional requests for early pick ups, etc... because the SpermClan friend doing the favor had some conflict. Nope. The schedule is the schedule.
I completely agree that boundaries are the critical success factor in local 50/50 situations. Those boundaries are very different than long distance full physical and legal custody CP and limited visitation NCP situations.
The nearly infinite variables that can occur in CP/NCP/SParent/etc... situations makes it critical for a clear capability to identify reasonable Vs unreasonable in the blended family world. There is no one size fits all anything. Unfortunately the gray matter required to recognize what is overstepping and what is not overstepping is oddly a rarity for many.
For that reason, full separation and each parent staying the hell away during the other parent's time keeps it simple.
"Unfortunately the gray
"Unfortunately the gray matter required to recognize what is overstepping and what is not overstepping is oddly a rarity for many."
Agree. 50/50 can be so hard if the parents are more worried about competing to be the favorite parent or competing with their ex's SO, than doing what's best for the kids. But it really doesn't have to be that hard. At least not if those incolved are reasonable, but most of us are on this site because someone (or everyone) is not. In 15 years of local 50/50 in my case, there was not once an issue with either ex's SO, or with extracurriculars, or with the schedule, etc. We didn't have to communicate more than maybe weekly if that. Some people just make everything hard.
Yep. And when they make
Yep. And when they make everything hard, I make everything painful. For them. At least in our blended family life. Which blessedly we are long past.
The entire Cold War was managed on the premise of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). I took that position with the caveat that they would suffer total destruction and we would not..
Knowing the enemy and knowing the rules, regs, history, facts, etc.... is such a decided advantage that it is extremely unlikely that the other side can prevail. Particularly when they never read the CO.
Idiot botton 10A%ers of the legal profession on the family law bench not withstanding of course.
An insane number of people who live under a CO never read it. They wing it and then get all pouty when they get smacked in the face with a rolled up copy of the CO when they overstep and are unreasonable.
For some reason it is rare for these types to ever learn how to be reasonable.
So, they suffer.
'Activities" will always be a
'Activities" will always be a big thorn in my side.
But here it goes, When my ex had his visitation, I was not snooping around where he was 'just in case'.
Ex's, both dads and moms seem to forget that Visitation is designed to spend time as a family, doing what that family does on any given day.
The courts assume that parents can manage.
I believe that bm should avoid showing up during her childrens time with their dad. PERIOD. End of the year game that falls on HIS weekend would be the exception, or end of year recital etc.
jmo
Mom in this case seems like a
Mom in this case seems like a hoovering helicopter parent.
Like girl it's the dads weekend. Go to the spa, go on a date, do something else besides cling to your kid
What if dad had his new gf or whatever or just wants to have his time without her observing, clinging, and taking partial custody during his weekend.
Stick to the court order
The orders have not been finalized, and it doesn't sound at all
The orders have not been finalized, and it doesn't sound at all like she is clinging or taking partial custody. She is simply going to her kids ball games and was wondering how to handle it if another parent was watching her kid while her ex was coaching. I can understand why she might not be sure quite how to handle things. I don't think it is wrong for a parent to attend a sporting event on the other's time, these are actual games, not just practice.
It also seems that the ex and his family are trying to make it look like she doesn't have enough time for her kids because she works, so it could be used against her if she doesn't go to games, even if they are on his time. She is in a tough position and still trying to figue things out.
Agreed. Going to games,
Agreed. Going to games, competitions, or performances does not make someone a helicopter parent. That's just normal, supportive parenting. My DD is often in shows that play 4 times a week for 6 weeks, and I'm in the audience for every single one of them. XH is present for most, unless he's out of town. Not attending would be painful for us and hurtful to my DD. I can't imagine taking issue with that.
I don't think I said going to
I don't think I said simply going to kids games makes a parent a helicopter parent because that would make every parent of a student athlete a helicopter parent.
My point is....
Kids will have so many events and games that these will fall on moms time and dads time.
And in this particular case, I have a hard time believing this mom doesn't have any games she can attend during her parenting time or structure the parenting schedule so she can have her own time with said kid at a game.
I wouldn't be opposed to my kids parent coming to an event on my weekend to support the kid as long as they stay in their lane.
Interfering, causing problems, unsolicited supervising, collecting intel for the next court hearing, or doing anything that looks like taking custody during the other parents custody time is out of order
IMO
Mom showing up to games on dads parenting time is more likely to cause issues than her requesting her own separate game day custody time if she doesn't have this already
IDK i admittedly read the original post and not the follow up posts so maybe I'm missing something.
My DD is often in shows that
Sounds like you and your ex have an agreement of how attendance at extracurriculars during each others parenting time will be handled or you both are mature enough to let things work out naturally.....UNLIKE the people described in the original post
When there is a contentious divorced then imo it's best to keep parenting times separate...each parent split games like they split weekends OR agree in advance how to handle things if they both want to be present at the same event
She is simply going to her
She should do nothing (except watch and cheer and wave and smile).
It's not her parenting time so these are not her choices and decisions she should be putting herself in the position to even have to make.
Dad's parenting time and dad determined the coach or another parent will watch the kid when he's busy ... unless it's an emergency or those people are abusive/neglectful then she should absolutely step in
His parenting time = his choice on what to do with the kid
When it's her parenting time and a game happens then she can make parenting choices.
I wonder why dad let the coach and other parent be responsible with the mother there? Either because this woman showed up unannounced and he didn't know she was there or he didn't want her interfering during his parenting time.
Her presence and possible attempt to undermine the dad during his parenting time under the guise of supporting the kid can and will backfire on her.
Excellent post, ESMOD!
Excellent post, ESMOD!
My DH and I went out for dinner, years ago, when my son was about 6 years old. My ex, the boy’s father, happened to be dining with a lady friend at the same restaurant and our son spotted me and was visibly longing to greet me. My ex allowed the boy to come to my table but after a smooch and a cuddle, I sent him back to his dad; it was clear to me that I did not have the right to interfere with his custody and evening out.
However, after reading the details of BM’s persecution by her monied ex-husband and his controlling family, her attendance at the boys’ games is understandable, in that she is attempting to protect her parental rights against the exe's suggestion of her neglect.
Maybe surprising from me. Some views are not worth the climb.
We had one of these in our blended family years. As part of the visitation element of the CO, my DW was awarded 10days of time with SS mid way through the 5wk SpermClan summer visitation. SpermGrandHag never recognized DW's demands for that COd time and would disappear with SS and go radio silent during the 5wks.
We could have turned that into a fire bombing of the Hag in court. We didn't. We adapted. We just told them when their summer visitation would start regardless of when the Hag wanted it to start. She did not like that and tried to play the "I get to tell you when it will start!" game. At which point we told her, true, but you have to notify us in writing 60days prior to the start of any visitation your idiot son intends to take. No SpermIdiot so according to the CO we did not have to honor any visitation request as they were never made in writing. We gave her the choice, STFU and take what we told her or, no visitation as she failed to comply with the requirements of the CO. She never wanted to have to stand in court and explain why her idiot son was nearly completely absent in the entire situation. Threats to her carefully crafted facade in the community was very important to her.
Battling over the 10 days and the Hag's interference in it, was not worth the climb. We could deal with it in other ways that were effective in facilitating what we wanted.
In the concerned friend's situation, it sounds as if there is not a major issue with her attending her kids' sports events, she is being aware of the overall situation, and doing her due diligence to minimize drama. I applaud that. Going to her children's sports events is the right thing. Keeping it as a spectator as other have advised is the right move.
IMHO of course.