Poll and Opinion.. Other Parent's custody time issues.
So, this is not me.. but someone I know.... and she is the BM...but wants to know what is appropriate.. boundaries.. etc.. re her Exes' custody time. Specifically.. when her children have sporting events.
BM and EX have two kids.. ~9 and ~4 years old. Both kids play sports... the team games tend to be on the same days though not at the exact same times. EX is a coach for one of the teams his kid plays on. They are not on the best terms.. but have been able to communicate "some". Custody time has been set.. but some things are in the process of being finalized with their divorce/custody details. (just to paint the picture).
BM wants to be supportive of her kid's activities and wants to go see them when they play... even if the game falls on a weekend that is her Exes' custody time. My POV is that is fine, but not an obligation on her part... but here are the Poll issues.
1. If you go see your kid's games and there is a long break between one kid's and the other kid's.. should the (at the moment.. they have joint.. 50/50.. so I just mean it's not their weekend) NCP parent stay at the ball field for the long break between games? Is it ok to leave, then come back for the 2nd game later in the day?
2. If you get to the game and find that one of your children (the younger one) is being looked after by another mother on the team, do you step in and "take your child" from them. The EX is there at the game, but is busy coaching.. so he has arranged competent care.. but is it your right to step in and "take" your kid to watch them.. or do you sit there and watch your other child.. letting the other person care for your kid? This is again, the younger kid.. he can't just watch by themselves.
My own personal POV on this is that this is your Exes's time.. it is their right and obligation to care for the kids without interference by the other parent. I do think it's ok for parents to go to a game to watch when it is the other parent's time, but to not overly step in and be actively participating with the kids.. again.. not to overstep.
So, for 1. my vote is.. it's perfectly fine.. and in fact preferable if the NCP leaves for the long break between games.. it is the Exes' responsibility to care for and to take kids for a meal.. whatever.. it's his time.
2. It's a bit mixed here. I know it is hard for her to see someone else watching her child... but it's her Exes' obligation ... responsibility to ensure his kids are supervised.. I am confllicted in that I don't think the BM should necessarily interfere.. and this doesn't really rise to the ROFR kind of situation.. because the Ex IS present.. just not able to primarily supervise.. but could easily step in at any moment if needed. In fact.. BM should not want such a restrictive ROFR policy.. because does that mean that the EX gets to override her choice of letting her father or grandparents watch the child?.. or other trusted people.. if she is only not there for a short period of time? I mean.. is her stepping in and relieving the other person's obligation to watch her child.. good or bad? I'm a bit stumped at what is the right answer here. Is she interfering with her Exes's decisions by doing it.. or is she just taking on a responsibility she should have as a Bio parent?
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You can not dictate
What another adult person should do. If they stay or leave and come back. Is one not your concern, life may dictate staying one day and leaving another day. What a parent does on there custody time, also is not your concern. She arranges for someone to watch her kid. At a game she is 20 feet away. Is not your concern. Actually that something that is great. She could just sit the kid in a chair by themselves to watch the game
I am asking more from the BM
I am asking more from the BM POV.
Should she "parent" her kids if it is not her time.. if she happens to be in the same vicinity.. like going to watch them play sports?
I can see the logic for stepping in and watching your child vs just sitting back and having a non-related person watch them..
I can also see how it might be confusing to young kids.. mommy ignoring me..
But, it's also the other parent's custody time.. and while I think it's ok to go watch the kids play.. it doesn't necessarily mean that you should be going overboard.. interfering with their ability to have time with their kids.
So, maybe the right thing is to take the responsibility of watching the younger child from the teammate's mom while you are there.. but when the game is over.. and you leave... you pass back control to that person(or your EX if he is now freed up).
But.. watching the game doesn't mean you constantly try to have your children's attention.. they are there to play the game.. and any "parenting" should generally be primarily the person whose custody time it is... so in the situation where he had another parent watching the younger while he coached the older kid's game.. it was ok for her to step in and help since she was there? but once EX is free.. she backs off again? and doesn't hang about between games to spend time with her kids.. since it's dad's time.
I guess the issue I see is if
I guess the issue I see is if the younger child is like “I want to go be with mommy”, “I want to sit with mommy”, “why can’t I go be with mommy!” Is that really a hill the “caregiver” and the ex are going to die on? If so then yeah the BM should probably leave in between games.
That was a bit the way I was
That was a bit the way I was leaning.
When dad asked another parent to watch his younger child while he was coaching.. BM was not there. When she got there to watch the game.. she went and got the younger from the person her EX asked to watch the child. Dad was "there" but obviously not focused on the younger since he was coaching.. he would have been able to step in if need be.. but you can't just trust a 5 yo kid to sit quietly and not get into things. So he asked another parent to help.. if BM had been there... he might have asked her I guess.. but apparently the caregiving ask happened before she arrived.
In this case.. the "hey.. thanks for watching YK.. I will take him while we are watching the game".. but once the game would be over.. and her EX was available.. the younger kid is sent over to dad.. and she should probably busy herself elsewhere rather than hang around and be a distraction for her kids.
This is kind of a new situation for everyone.. I don't hate that she took the kid from the other parent.. like.. "hey.. just got here.. I can watch him till EX is done coaching" but any more hanging about and taking her kid's attention from their dad on "his" time is overstepping.. and she needs to know that.. even if kids want her to take them to lunch.. whatever.. she needs to respect that it's her Ex'es time.
I also cautioned that you don't want ROFR to be too stringent.. because you don't want it coming into play if you want to go on a date for the evening and get a babysitter necessarily.. or let your parents take their grandkid for a daytrip or something..If you are going to be unavailable.. basically the whole custody time.. then.. yeah.. perhaps then.
My Thoughts
1) Yes, attend game. Sit away from the ex and family. Leave on long breaks.
2) No, do not help with kids nor offer to help with kids. If her ex asks, then yes. But this is his parenting time. Walking over and taking the child is an over- step. It's up to the ex to care for his kids on his time. Another possible choice - she askes her ex FIRST if he wants her help. Is it weird? Yes but it's divorce which brings new life lessons to teach our kids.
We SMs here deal with BMs constantly overstepping the biological father's visitation time. It's his time. He's within the vicinity of his child. He provides adequate child supervision. The BM can use this as an opportunity to show her children how important quality time is with their father. Point out the value of being with their dad for that weekend, and honoring his authority in their lives as their father.
I truly believe this type of behavior softens the pain of divorce, shows each parent's respect of each other and over time, a new parental relationship can be made. It's how my former husband and I handled things. Today, we all get along and have a beautiful blend with both of us remarried.
Best to your friend. It's never easy starting this journey.
Yeah.. absolutely I thought
Yeah.. absolutely I thought that for long breaks.. that the mother should have left.. I think she did..
As far as showing up and someone else is watching your child (another parent on the team).. that I was a little more mixed because certainly... why should that other parent "have to " watch that child if there is a bio parent there. They were asked by the dad because he was busy coaching.. so I think that was ok for him to do.. and probably "ok" for bm to step in and watch her own child while she was there..but it would also have been fine to just sit in the stands and observe... which was her role tbh.. but I can see the awkward.. gee.. do I make this other parent watch my child.. if I'm there and capable of doing it.. (knowing the ex/dad was coaching and had arranged for the other parent to help when BM wasn't present).
If they could work it out
If they could work it out ahead of time that would be ideal. If the dad doesn't want BM watching the kid on "his" time, talk to the kids ahead of time. Say "I'm going to be there watching but it's your dad's weekend. So i'm going to wave to you and say Hi Johnny!, and you can wave back and say Hi Mom!" Then practice the wave with the kid. Make it kind of like a fun game. If the dad wants the help, BM can go and sit with the kid. But i can see it getting awkward if Dad starts dating again and SM is sitting with the kid. But if the mom doesn't act all sad or worried, the kid probably won't, either.
If it was a SM with the kid I
If it was a SM with the kid I probably would have thought differently.. but my understanding is that it was another parent of a kid on the team.. Dad was coaching one kid.. so needed help watching the younger one during the older one's game. the BM didn't tell him she would be there.. so I'm guessing he just did what he needed to to have his younger kid supervised.
I definetly gave my opinion that this was dad's time.. and that the BM should do nothing to interfere with that.. so SHOULD leave (she wondered if it would look bad).. between games since it was a decent stretch of time.
unfortunately this is a small community.. the other parents there are pretty aligned with her EX.. so she really doesn't have people to hang with .. that would make it easier for her.
She felt awkward having taking her younger son.. but also felt it would be awkward if she didn't.. (since dad was busy coaching)..
She is really sensitive that people would think she is a bad mom for not watching her own child.. even though.. yeah.. this is DAD's time.
In my opinion.. she probably should not go to every game on dad's time... it would be easier.
Yeah. I can see it being
Yeah. I can see it being awkward but i can also remember having small kids and wanting to go to everything. I can imagine if this is Dad's thing and he is coaching, it's probably mostly his friends there. It never really came up for me since my ex wasn't super involved, but i was and he would come to things and either just spectate from a distance or say a quick hello. I don't remember it ever being an issue but i think it's because neither of us got the kids all worked up about missing them/us. The 50/50 thing was just accepted by everyone. The CO spelled everything out and we never considered there was any other option, since it was signed by a judge.
I know they are still going
I know they are still going through court....and the dad and his family are trying to paint a poor picture of BM... she is kind of being ganged up on there.. so she feels her absence at her kid's sports would look bad.. so really tries to make the games.. practices.. different story.. it's just to
cheer em on.
IMHO... the EX has a lawyer who is a dirty trick kind of guy.. so her slightly over stepping to be at the game and to watch the 5 yo was probably ok.. but I did say she should leave for the intermission..that's dad's time to grab a hot dog with them...etc.
Of course, on her time.. dad will automatically be there since he coaches.. so it is a bit tit for tat in that regards.
Fortunately.. they are trying to both look like adults in front of the kids.. so they aren't doing "scenes".. but if one of them starts dating at some point.. it will probably change the dynamic.. a lot.
Ugh. If they could just do 50
Ugh. If they could just do 50/50 and stop with the mud-slinging it would be ideal. Is this guy trying to get primary custody? Unless one parent is a drug addict or criminal, in my area it's automatic 50/50. I get that 50/50 is disruptive, but if both parents are really involved with the kids it's the only way. These kids are young, too, with a long road ahead.
Came back to add, my youngest was about 4 when my ex and i split. If both parents want to be present fulltime and they can stand each other at all, they should probably try to work things out. I've been single for 15 years (i've dated but never lived with anyone) and have lived less than a mile from my ex this whole time. Had to be same school district for bussing otherwise it would have created drama. I can't imagine having remarried while my kids were still at home. It's just, really, a lot harder than people realize to "start fresh" and not have the kids pay the price.
They have 50/50 set at the
They have 50/50 set at the moment.. but it also comes with some CS obligation for the EX (plus some spousal was awarded)... but it has not all been finalized yet... The EX and his family were trying to get full custody.. and like you.. I was gobsmacked that they thought that was in any way possible. The BM is full time employed.. with no drug or alcohol issues.. I think it was probably more motivated by money. The guy's mother watches the kids a lot after school etc.. so I'm sure they were just trying to paint her as "not being there to watch her kid.. so MIL had to".. when the reality is that yes.. working her schedule to be able to do school transport had to be worked out.. she did manage it. But, he also has a job that could keep him away as well... and he also relies on his mom to watch the kids when he gets called out in the middle of the night .. for work. etc..
They have been together almost 10 years.. I, like you.. really hoped they would figure out how to keep it together.. because it's just not ideal for the kids.. and both of them (the parents)will have a harder time going forward.. financially etc.. But, they just couldn't stay together.. a lot was due to her Ex being abusive and controlling.. she put up with a lot of crap from him.. from his family.. and I think his actions and behavior killed any chance of this working out.. this is not the first time she has tried to leave... but I think it's going to stick this time.. she has actually gotten out of the home.. and away from him. TBH.. weirdly enough.. the kids seem to be doing better without the stress of their parent's homelife.. so maybe it won't be the end of the world.
Also, like you.. if both of them could just hammer out a fair situation..and walk away and go live their lives.. would be best too.. but he doesn't want her to get "anything".. so he is fighting it all.. costly as heck with lawyers.. and tbh.. in the end.. she will legally entitled to a share of the house.. his pension etc... and there is not a lot he can do to counteract that.. so he should probably just sit down and work out something between them.. because I'm sure she would be willing to take less than if they end up fighting it all out in court!
That sounds like a tough
That sounds like a tough situation. He sounds like kind of a jerk with a family of oversteppers. I would advise her to, if at all possible, avoid having her ex MIL watch the kids on her custody days. I know that's hard, as you have to pay for before/after care every day, even if you don't use it.
As far as the kids seeming better with their parents apart - i get that. If there is a lot of tension in the home, that makes sense. My kids actually told me "Whatever you do, please don't get back together with Dad!" It was not their business to say, but at that time i was seriously considering reconciling "for the kids." They told me that at least for half the time, they are away from his mood swings and yelling.
But yeah. About MIL. The less she watches the kids on your friend's time, the better. Some expenses (daycare for me) are well worth the sacrifice, and having peace without the monster-in-law sounds worth it to her whether she knows it or not.
That has never specifically
That has never specifically come up for me (multiple kids with games at same event), but i'll give my 2 cents as a BM of now adult kids. I would go and spectate for the game. I wouldn't sit by my ex or horn in with the other kid and whoever is sitting with them. I would maybe go say hi and give them a hug and say "Ok, go sit with Ms. X, i'll see you on (whatever day!) Love you!" I wouldn't hang around between games unless i had other people to hang out with. Otherwise it might be tempting to go hang around the other kid. If the kid was like "Mommmmeee!!!" I would matter-of-factly and cheerfully say "You're with your dad this weekend, and Ms. X is watching you. Stay with her and do what she says." Don't look sad or worried, make it sound like it's all part of the plan and the adults have everything under control.
I'm all about just applying
I'm all about just applying common sense, but I know a lot of people cannot do that in a divorce, especially early on.
1. Yes, I agree that she should leave between games.
2. I think that if the coparenting relationship is contentious, this is a lose-lose situation. If she "ignores" her kid, she risks the child thinking she doesn't care about him AND being painted as a disinterested, deadbeat mom by the other parents. If she proactively steps in and takes over care of her kid, then she risks upsetting her ex and being accused by observers of overstepping.
In a normal situation, she could shoot her ex a text in advance and say, "do you need someone to watch younger kiddo during the game? I'm happy to help if you'd like." And then respect whatever his response is. But if he's going to twist that into her being overbearing, then what can she do? It sucks, but I would show up right when the game starts, take a seat, and only engage with my younger child when they approached me. As a mom, I can't even begin to say how much I would hate that, but I think it's really her only option unless the ex can behave like a rational adult.
I have a recently divorced friend whose ex regularly sends their kids to spend the night with other families on his time. It isn't unusual for her to arrive at a social gathering where people have brought their kids and discover that her children are there because they were spending the night with another family in attendance. Her ex isn't there, none of us are friends with him and never will be. The situation is super awkward for her because if he finds out she "parented" in any way during "his time" he will go out of his way to make her life hell. To the point that if her kids ask if they can have a soda, she'll have to say, "that's up to <mom you're spending the night with>" lest he find that she said they couldn't have a soda or whatever. It's the most insane and inflexible dynamic I have ever witnessed and it is simply terrible for the children. It raises my blood pressure just thinking about how infuriating the whole thing is.
I’m curious
if dad make the request to the team parent prior to the game or was it just a "hey, watch my kid while I coach your kid" situation (which I have had done to me... grr...) If it was prearranged and he had provided books, cars, snacks, etc. then no, because he was still parenting his kid. If the younger kid was just expected to sit there, then yeah, it would be appropriate for mom to offer her services. My kids were five years apart and so we had to deal with the bored younger and factor his needs into his older brother's schedule.
Just my take.
A KISS thing I think.
1. BM should do whatever she wants to do. Stay between events. Leave between the events. Have a gourmet catered foody lunch brought to the sports fields for herself. Etc... Okay, maybe not that.
2. I think that this is kinda a non issue. If BM wants to sit by her younger child to watch the elder child play, she should do it. It is not a matter of interfering in the other team mom watching the younger kid, or even that it is dad's time. It is not about Daddy's time Vs BM's time. The thought of sitting away from and ignoring my youngest as a BM (which I clearly am not) is so far beyond passing the smell test that I would not consider it. Sit with your kid. Not a ROFR thing IMHO. Just a "Hey kid, how is the game going?" and sit down thing. Talk with the team mom. BM wants to get a drink, get up and get a drink. Then return to sit with the kid. The kid wants something? Bring it back when the BM returns from the snackbar.
So much of blended family/CO life is so over complicated against how simple it is in reality that IMHO BM should not even worry about it.
If coach daddy saw BM sitting with the youngest and took exception, it would be game on for me if I was BM in this scenario.
But what if you were stepdad
But what if you were stepdad and the Spermidiot showed up to things and horned in? Dealing with joint custody, especially 50/50, where both parents live near each other can be so disruptive and messy. If everyone involved tries to be respectful of each person's CO'd time, it just goes easier. A parent will always want to show up for their kids but nobody needs drama at every T-ball game. Preparation and boundaries go a long way in preventing that.
The stated situation is simple IMHO. Though not all are.
It would be something entirely different if BioDad had a DW there with the younger COD and BM "horned in". That would clearly be over stepping IMHO.
Watching a kid's sports event or any other COD school event is IMHO not horning in on or disrespecting the other parent's time in a local visitation situation. The parent whose time it is not, attending, sitting in a different section from the parent whose time it is allows all the parents/Sparents/SSibs/halfsibs/GPs, etc... to attend respectfully.
Fortunately, DW had full physical and legal, and we never lived within 1200 miles of the SpermIdiot. That, and not once in 16+ years did anyone in the SpermClan ever engage in SS's life beyond long distance visitation in SpermLand. Not even a graduation card, birthday card, etc. The only SPermClan member who ever was in our area of residency was a GGF who would fly to pick SS up and return him to SpermLand for visitation. Once the GGPs all passed, and before SS reached the age where he could fly unaccompanied it was some random friend of SpermGrandHag's or it was the Hags daughter's MIL who had an adult child in our city who would pick up and escort SS to SpermLand visitation. There were occasional requests for early pick ups, etc... because the SpermClan friend doing the favor had some conflict. Nope. The schedule is the schedule.
I completely agree that boundaries are the critical success factor in local 50/50 situations. Those boundaries are very different than long distance full physical and legal custody CP and limited visitation NCP situations.
The nearly infinite variables that can occur in CP/NCP/SParent/etc... situations makes it critical for a clear capability to identify reasonable Vs unreasonable in the blended family world. There is no one size fits all anything. Unfortunately the gray matter required to recognize what is overstepping and what is not overstepping is oddly a rarity for many.
For that reason, full separation and each parent staying the hell away during the other parent's time keeps it simple.
'Activities" will always be a
'Activities" will always be a big thorn in my side.
But here it goes, When my ex had his visitation, I was not snooping around where he was 'just in case'.
Ex's, both dads and moms seem to forget that Visitation is designed to spend time as a family, doing what that family does on any given day.
The courts assume that parents can manage.
I believe that bm should avoid showing up during her childrens time with their dad. PERIOD. End of the year game that falls on HIS weekend would be the exception, or end of year recital etc.
jmo
Mom in this case seems like a
Mom in this case seems like a hoovering helicopter parent.
Like girl it's the dads weekend. Go to the spa, go on a date, do something else besides cling to your kid
What if dad had his new gf or whatever or just wants to have his time without her observing, clinging, and taking partial custody during his weekend.
Stick to the court order