Parent Responsibility (MI School Shooting)
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The parents of the Michigan school shooter have been charged with involuntary manslaughter. I haven't read enough to know whether that's solely because the murder weapon was available to him or if there's more involved.
I'm not posting to discuss whether that's right or wrong, but just because I've seen posts on here lately about unstable skids who, based on what I read of their behavior, I could see harming others. It made me wonder how much responsibility (legal, not moral), if any, a stepparent living in the home would have. Anyone know?
Interesting thought…
It does cause pause to think and revaluate risk of being involved in dysfunctional family dynamics for more reasons than the obvious we all here deal with.
If it is factual that they did inform it was a gift for Christmas for their underage son...they should be charged.
I was just reading that
I was just reading that article. They bought the kid a 9mm pistol on Black Friday and gave it to him. He was having a disciplinary meeting the day of the shooting and his parents were present for it. He had drawn pictures of people being shot. He had the gun on him in the meeting, went back to class and did the shooting.
They deserve to be charged.
Those facts are pretty
Those facts are pretty egregious. The article I saw didn't go into any of that; just that dad bought the gun 4 days earlier.
Well, this article doesn't
Well, this article doesn't say they handed it to him, but basically:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school...
This just keeps getting worse and more unbelievable.
Detroit Freep has reported that when the father heard the news there had been a shooting at the high school his behavior was strange.
Rather than try to call his son to see if we was ok as most parents did he drove home to see if the 9mm was gone from home. When he discovered it in fact was, he called 911 and indicated that he thought his son could be the shooter. This family is more than dysfunctional.
After reading this I am so angry for the students who were killed and the ones who were there to experience such horror. These parents could and should have prevented it.
After the parent meeting that morning his mom emailed him and told him she wasn't mad but next time he needed to be more careful. This after a teacher seeing him browsing ammo online. This is insane!
Yeah, she told him "I"m not
Yeah, she told him "I"m not mad at you, you have to learn not to get caught". And posted pictures of "mother son day trying out his new Christmas Present". She also texted him "don't do it", after he well, already did it.
These parent are nuts. Around here he would have been long-term suspended or at least until he was evaluated. And they sent him back to class with a gun in his book bag.
It appears that this school has….
Some tough questions to answer.
All around a mess and what not to do.
Dad
Did I read correct he is step dad? His son left and went back with BM. Said he got along with the boy. I can't remember where I read this so posing as question.
I just read that there's an
I just read that there's an 18 year old half brother living with his mother in FL. So he and the shooter share a father but have different mothers. Article said the half-brother insinuated that he went back to his BM last March because of issues with his stepmother (the shooter's mother).
Thank You
For the clarification.
And both parents had legal
And both parents had legal issues in the past.
No words…
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/oxfor...
Egregious indeed. Those
Egregious indeed. Those parents need to be held accountable for the part they played in the tragedy.
Now apparently they are on
Now apparently they are on the run - were supposed to turn themselves in but didn't. I'm sure they feel like victims.
https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/oakland/2021/12/03/james...
I live in MI about 30 minutes
I live in MI about 30 minutes from where this happened. The parents fled and a statewide manhunt took place. Their photos and license plate were plastered everywhere. They were picked up by police in a closed commercial building in the middle of the night last night.
Yeah, I've been reading this.
Yeah, I've been reading about them.
Sounds like the mother of this kid was quite the nutjob - and father wasn't anything great either. Their kid is facing life in prison and all they can think about is their own hides.
The parents absolutely failed
The parents absolutely failed this kid. The school failed this kid and every other kid in that school. Sad situation for everyone involved.
Around here, there is such a
Around here, there is such a low tolerance in the schools, he would have been removed from school pending a psych evaluation just for the picture alone, most likely. The sad part is that he clearly was depressed and asking for help.
Same in the schools I grew up
Same in the schools I grew up in. And if the schools had known about any rumors of violence, they would have shut the whole district down until the source was verified and the rumors were unsubstantiated. Many kids said they didn't go to school that day because there were rumors something was going to happen and they didn't feel safe. This kid would have been involuntarily admitted for evaluation and not even allowed to return to class to get his belongings. It's sad that they just let him go back to class.
My DH was raised in a very
My DH was raised in a very bizarre family. After the event he said that even his crazy parents wouldn't think of giving him a gun. These people...
I am very familiar with a neighborhood where these sad events took place. It's extremely pro-gun area and I wouldn't be surprised if there are ton of other kids carrying guns in their pockets and backpacks at that school. Metal detectors are the must.
Well I teach high school myself and we do not have metal detectors. And it's also very pro-gun area and in addition to it our parents are mostly very backwards. They wouldn't think twice to buy their kids guns.
While there are definitely
While there are definitely some concerns about this shooters parents, especially if he's drawing pictures & making bleak, possibly suicidal statements. Parents knowing he has access to a firearm & not questioning anything.
In general, I don't see anything wrong with purchasing a firearm for someone to use who is under 18. There were guns in my home when I was a child, as most of my extended family. Although I was never given a gun for Christmas, it was because I abhorred hunting more then anything. Several of my cousins did receive guns for presents. My son was given ownership of my fathers rifle (who has passed) once he was 18.
I was trained on gun safety as was my sister. I own a handgun & a concealed carry permit. I live in Philly we have over 500 murders so far this year. I live only a few blocks away from where looting occurred during the riots last year. I've been to the range to practice shoot. There are children learning there.
Most pro-gun families are very respectful of the dangers of firearms. Children are trained very young - don't touch, be respectful. Most non-gun owners have odd notions of how they work, Ex. Alec Baldwin - claiming he didn't pull the trigger (guns don't work that way) , or Biden's just shoot them in the leg (maybe a sharp shooter - very unlikely in the heat of the moment) , or shoot into the air (hint - bullets come back down).
Are there odd balls out there - who are terrible gun owners? Of course. Are these parents? Probably. But the truth is armed citizens stop 2,500,000 crimes each year. That is more then the police do. Only 6% of all crime is committed with legally owned firearms. 60% of felons report they avoid committing crimes when they knew the victim was armed; 40% if they thought they might be.
Do gun owners need to be responsible? absolutely. If you want real gun-reform then criminals who use illegal firearms need to have real consequences. Criminals need to be prosecuted not given $1000.00 bail.
::climbs off soapbox::
There are definitely "some"
There are definitely "some" concerns? Some? These people are "probably" irresponsible gun owners? "Probably?" wow
Well ok your cousins were given guns so how is this an example of anything? I know how to shoot too but should 15 year olds given deadly weapons to carry around? Really?
So how did this thread become a pro-gun spiel? It's ok to have pro gun debates but did it have to be on a thread about horrible tragedy. Let's honor memory of these poor children and show some respect for victims and not do it on here. It's ok to start such discussions of a positive aspect of kids owning guns on a different thread. Let's respectful. Kids and teachers have rights to go to school in the morning and return home alive. Do their rights matter? Or only pro gun people's rights matter?
Because that's how gun owners
Because that's how gun owners feel. Their guns are more important than children's lives and sanity.
Sadly you are likely correct
Sadly you are likely correct about that. Scary world we are living in
Scary country, for sure.
Scary country, for sure. Every other developed nation has gun laws, and guess what? They rarely have mass casualty events like this.
I feel like I was reading
I feel like I was reading stats from an NRA rep just now lol
I think any parent who allows
I think any parent who allows a child access to a gun, and that child uses it to kill someone should be charged. I also think people shouldn't be able to go down to a store on Black Friday and buy an automatic handgun to give to their disturbed kid as an effing Christmas present. Ridiculous.
Most criminals who violate gun laws (here anyway) are charged under federal laws and not given $1000 bail. No other country in the world makes their children undergo "active shooter" drills just so that everyone who wants one can have a gun, with no accountability for how that gun is used. We are more comfortable with traumatizing our children than restricting guns. Absurd.
If gun owners believe most guns are used responsibly than they would support parents being charged whenever they aren't used responsibly. But they don't - they want zero laws around guns, except illegal ones. Well, most illegal guns start out as legal guns, and are stolen. So perhaps we should insist that gun owners secure their weapons so they can't be stolen by anyone? No, of course not, that would be restricting people's freedoms. Let them leave them on the kitchen table with the door unlocked. Let them allow their children free access to them so they can shoot up their school.
I'm very glad I live in a state with strict gun laws. I don't even remember the last time we had a school shooting here. And let me know when you actually use your gun on one of those scary bad guys that live so close to you. My guess is that it will never happen.
Sorry, I'm tired of children dying so people can own weapons they don't need to have. Have a hunting rifle, I don't care. But no one needs an automatic weapon of any kind, period.
*off my soapbox*
ETA: Oh, also, teaching kids "gun safety" won't do squat if they are homicidal and suicidal, and are allowed free access to a weapon. You are kidding yourself if you think it will. All it will do is make sure they have better aim.
Agree on all accounts
Agree on all accounts
I waffle on this topic. On
I waffle on this topic. On the one hand, I think parents should hold some responsibility when their evil shit kids go on a deadly rampage. On the other, some kids are just plain evil shit and the parents might not bear any of that outcome.
As for the liabilities of an SP in a similar situation, I think it is a case by case situation that will unfold as law enforcement investigates.
As with most things, people of character do not have much to worry about.
IMHO of course.
I don't think this is a
I don't think this is a scenario someone living outside of the US needs to worry about. The gun culture in the US horrifies me and I'm grateful for the strict gun laws we have in Australia. For the most part, the only people with guns in Australia are those living on farms and we have never had a incident to my knowledge of a teenager taking their parents gun and shooting anyone with it.
That being said, from what I've read about this case the parents absolutely deserve to be charged. They gave a mentally distrubed child (and there was much evidence of his mental health issues) a gun. They sent him texts on the day asking him not to do it and the father rang the police to say he thought it was his son who had done the shooting after the fact so they clearly knew he had violent tendencies and did not prevent him access to the gun. It's unthinkable and grossly negligent.
I wish the US started
I wish the US started exercising some common sense too.
What's most horrifying is that these parents gave him the gun. It's not like he stole it. It's unbelievable that people worry about 15-year-old rights to own weapons and his parents rights to buy him a gun. Under the circumstances of this horrible tragedy why would anyone put interests of a 15-year-olds owning guns over interest of an innocent victim. What's next? Where is the limit? Why do people defend this kid's rights to own a gun. It's insane. He is 15!! Why do people defend the culture of violence? There's something so disturbing here
Austrailia took guns from the
Austrailia took guns from the general population following a mass shooting in 1996 that killed 35 people if I recall correctly. I remember the news and the protests when the governement overstepped and took that right from the general Austrailian population. I have several coworkers working in Houston who are Australian who have purchased a number of guns. Showed their Australian Pass Ports and bought guns. No problem. They have all been very vocal about their opinion of the Australian gun grab.
These things happen in many countries. Not only with guns. The Rawanda genocide was perpetrated primarily with sticks and machettes and killed nearly 1.2 million people.
Since guns are what are getting focus due to the recent MI school shooting, here is some interesting analysis on mass shootings.
Average (Mean) Annual Death Rate per Million People from Mass Public Shootings (U.S., Canada, and Europe, 2009-2015):
Norway — 1.888
Serbia — 0.381
France — 0.347
Macedonia — 0.337
Albania — 0.206
Slovakia — 0.185
Switzerland — 0.142
Finland — 0.132
Belgium — 0.128
Czech Republic — 0.123
United States — 0.089
Austria — 0.068
Netherlands — 0.051
Canada — 0.032
England — 0.027
Germany — 0.023
Russia — 0.012
Italy — 0.009
In addition, a 2018 CRPC study ranked the U.S. at number sixty-four in the world in terms of mass shooting rates per capita.\
The extensive media industry in the US ensures that the world knows of our incidents when it is extremely rare for any mention of these incidents in most courtries to be made in global media coverage.
Most definately the parents of this murderous kid should be held accountable criminally and civily to the fullest extent of the law.
IMHO of course
Sorry I meant recently ie in
Sorry I meant recently ie in the last 10 years but you are right that our strict gun laws are in response to an awful mass shooting in Australia a very long time ago. The difference is it happened once and we addressed it, you are losing kids (and adults) every year and all the gun lovers can go on about is how their right to bear arms is more important than the lives of innocent people.
And despite your few Australia mates loving their guns, I think you will find the majority of Australians do not think the government 'overstepped' here - we are grateful that our government cared enough to take a stand and protect innocent people.
What I did notice on your list is that Australia isn't on it so the proof is in the pudding - the laws work.
No reason to be sorry. I
No reason to be sorry. I enjoy the discussion.
I too noticed that AUS is not on the list.
I think that there are a few key differences between the firearms positions in AUS and the USA. While we share some important similarities, the differences make dealing with the gun question very different prospects.
First, the USA created itself through the effective use of firearms. It is at the core of our history and it is a core element of our Constitution. The right to keep and bear arms is not granted by the government though the government is required to protect that right. Even in the off chance that Congress could overturn the 2nd Ammenment, and in the even smaller chance that the SCOTUS would uphold that action as being Contitutional, LEO and Military services would in all likelihood refuse to enforce the confiscation of firearms. Many of them ar private holders of firearms.
Second, taking a few thundered thousand weapons from a few dozens of millions of the governed is a very different prospect than taking hundreds of millions of firearms from a population of third of a billion of the governed.
Third, AUS is an island without boarders which makes enforcement of the NFA relatively easy. Compared with a large nation with thousands of miles of international boarders, the Southern of which is continually assailed by heavily armed criminal cartels, etc.... that the USA is. Not that I am an alarmist on the topic. But it is a notable problem on the Southern boarder of the USA. Not so much on the Northern boarder. Candadians are decidedly far more reasonable neighbors.
Focusing on law enforcement rather than eroding the rights of the governed is IMHO a better solution. At least in the USA.
How that looks, is a varied landscape. Even within a single country. I find the outcome of the AUS NFA very interesting. There has been a correlating decrease in the overall gun related murder rates, gun related suicide rates, and gun related violence towards women. While only ~13% of the AUS guns were removed from the public. Most of the guns removed were not covered by the NFA. From what I can determine.
While school shootings/etc.. are tragic, there are far greater issues in play when it comes to this topic. Taking guns will not end crime. School massacres will still happen though via different methods. Even the first school attackers in Colorado a couple of decades ago had propane bombs and other tools with them.
Full disclosure, I have never purchased a firearm.
I think they key difference
I think they key difference is culture, owning and loving guns seems to be ingrained in the US culture whereas it's not here in Australia. It may have once been more popular, however I think the mass shooting in Tasmania 3+ decades ago horrified people so much that it created a shift in culture - not that we ever had a strong gun culture in the first place.
I do agree that the approach taken in Australia won't work in the US - the situation is too far gone in my view and then there's that pesky constitution issue which would be near impossible to get around. But tightening the rules is possible.
It is definitely a culture issue.
I find it interestaing that the AUS NFA only removed about 12% of fireamrs from public hands. Those left seem to make a concerted effort to stay off of the radar screen. By my SWAG math that leaves about 6million weapons in private hands in AUS.
Unlike in the USA where guns show up in the news constantly.