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OT - Grammar

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Happy Monday, STalkers!! Anyone else's weekend too short? The day is only half over and I'm already ready for Friday. Sigh...

I was reading someone else's post about correcting and adult's grammar and got to thinking...

My Dad had a degree in English and was a substitute teacher for a few semesters. My siblings and I grew up with Dad (and Mom) correcting/teaching us to speak and write proper English before we started school (all of us were reading at age 4). Soooooo, we all excelled at English in school.

A lot of people did not have the advantage my siblings and I had - growing up with parents who helped us speak/write correctly. Not everyone had the advantage of a good education. I know people who have only an 8th grade education. Some of my older relatives (great-aunts/uncles, cousins) had only a few years of schooling. They worked the land or labored their entire lives and education actually had little to no impact on what they did. The bottom line... these folks made grammatical errors - and plenty of them. However, they were/are hard workers and successful in their endeavors.

Grammar is a touchy subject. While I KNOW (usually) what is correct, I sometimes use slang or say something grammatically INCORRECT because I'm goofing around with my family/friends. My DH has a genius IQ and can speak knowledgably on a wide variety of topics. He holds his own with history buffs AND professors. There is no machine he cannot fix. But grammar and spelling and proper English? They are his weakest subjects.

So.... maybe I'm in a unique group. I don't believe in correcting the grammar of adults - UNLESS they specifically ask me to proofread something or ask what is correct/proper. If I had children, I would have schooled them like my parents did me and my sibs. But the skids, my friends, my peers, other adults? No, NO, and no way in Hades.

Thoughts?

Comments

Veritas's picture

I don't correct grammar although my inner self BEGSSSSS me to let it out to be a grammar b!tch. I will go as far as to quietly correct a word here or there, with a "did you mean...?"

I love proper grammar (please don't end a sentence with a preposition YIKES)...it is my thing....it is not the "thing" of most people so I let it go Smile

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Why, Veritas, what are you talking about? }:)

My inner self may be cringing, but I never correct. I have a relative who spells "first" as "frist" and uses "he's" for "his". ~shudder~

Veritas's picture

Thank you for that Aniki...I LOVE it when my head explodes ROFLMAO!!!!

Some of the grammatical mistakes I see belong to our age of technology. When dictating a comment, instead of typing it out, much is lost in quality. One that I see often is, when referring to "being a part of my life", it is typed as "being apart of my life".

C'est la vie and all that stuff Smile

blayze's picture

Nah, not grammar. However, I do correct people when they make up words because I don't want them out there looking stupid. I would want someone to tell me!

I had a client who used to say that she was so "disco-bogalated'... in front of her staff and they didn't correct her. Finally, about the third time she said it, I looked confused and said, "Are you saying 'discombobulated'?"

She didn't change it.
And she said "pacific" instead of "specific".
Some people can't be helped. :?

WTF...REALLY's picture

I get corrected here and there because grammar is my weakest subject matter. I stop letting it bother me a few years ago. I grew up in Micronesia, so of course my grammar is not so hot. And I grew up speaking different island dialect so you mix all that in together and get a whole other language. Lol

I no care..cuz I wen known or what I say.

So yeah....no...

ESMOD's picture

I don't correct adults unless I am specifically asked to review their work. The only exception is my husband. He came from a small town and neither of his parents have education beyond high school. Their grammar isn't horrible, but he occasionally will mispronounce something or use the wrong word. I will correct him if I believe he isn't aware of the correct usage because I know he wants to present himself in a positive way.

Honestly, grammar was probably one of my weaker subjects in school. I have a great vocabulary from reading though. I try not to get too judgemental, but sometimes seeing the their vs they're and to vs too vs two puts my teeth on edge. It also can somewhat lead to me having an opinion of that person's intelligence too if it is a hot mess of errors.

But, I am sure I don't use perfect syntax all the time either.

ESMOD's picture

Yes, that too.

I also agree with everyone saying that people don't need to be correcting others without permission.

Most often, the motivation for the correction is not kindness or helpfulness. People are trying to show they are superior or that the other person is deficient.

While I will occasionally correct my DH's pronunciation, my intent is so that he presents himself better in public, not to show that he is stupid. I also don't correct him in front of others. I wait until we are alone to make sure he isn't embarrassed.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I also believe they are trying to show superiority. Instead, it makes them look like an arse.

I do the same with my DH. Smile

barbKarin's picture

Agree completely. It's obnoxious when people take it upon themselves to correct another adult's grammar without anyone asking for it.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Yes! Smile

DPW's picture

I find it condescending when someone corrects another person's grammar or spelling, especially on a casual forum such as this one. I, too, have met others that struggle in this area although they are highly intelligent and well-read. My cousin is one of the best writers I know, but she struggles with spelling. Her brain just doesn't work well with regards to spelling words. SO is also terrible at spelling, but like you Aniki, give him something mechanical to fix or talk politics, history, whatnot and he'd shine.

I also struggle with this. English is not my first language, French is, but you would never know it by hearing me speak, in most cases. But, there are words that I have a hard time pronouncing because I've not heard them many times in my life, but have read them over and over again and understand what they mean. I've been made fun of many times because of this, mocking my intelligence because I screwed up the pronunciation of a word.

And don't get me started on members in forums who correct spelling and grammar while in an argument with another member....

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Oo-la-la, DPW, I did not know French was your first language!!

My DH is also a terrible speller. He asks for my help when filling out forms and such.

IMHO, it's only okay to correct an adult if that adult ASKS for your help. Other than that, I find it rude and condescending and think that some do it as a show of 'superiority'.

classyNJ's picture

SO will ask me to proof read something due to spelling and that is the only time I will correct someone.

Just please do not say I could care less in front of me. My lips will quiver and I break out in a sweat!

Thumper's picture

BAHAAAA
My first husband had an awful habit of using the word IRREGARDLESS. Finally after 20 some years I had to say "Irregardless is NOT a word"

zerostepdrama's picture

When it's done over the internet for all to see I think that it is rude.

DaizyDuke's picture

I can't help myself.... I can't deal with bad grammar and I'm the asshole that will correct it if I see it. Probably why my Halloween costume a couple of years ago was the "grammar police" Blum 3

p.s. I don't think I've ever corrected anyone here...and when I do correct on FB, I try to be silly about it.. not assholey.

robin333's picture

What irritates me is when a Professor incorrectly claims something is a grammatical error that is not. Sad when compound sentences cannot be followed.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Ah, ye olde erring Professors.

SD24 wants to be an English teacher. She SUCKS at English - frequent grammatical errors. Heaven help any students she teaches. Sad

marblefawn's picture

The professors are INSUFFERABLE!!!!!! Now professors are developing their OWN language. It drives me nuts! Now they say "feminismS," "literatureS," "impactfulness!" WTH????????

I am old school on language and grammar. I have to remind myself how much money at my job so I can resist editing these self-important clowns! It would be career suicide for me not to play along at their pretend language!

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Aaaaaaauuuuuuugggghhh.... pretend language. Pass the eye AND ear bleach!!!

beebeel's picture

Meh. I'm corrected on my misuse of tech acronyms by my developer friends. I'm corrected on any misinformation I have regarding oil changes by my mechanic friends. My history prof friend corrects people when they say incorrect things about important people or events in history.

But people sure do get butt hurt if you, even politely, correct their grammar!

Aniki-Moderator's picture

So, beebeel, you know to not use sesame oil in your car?

I gladly let my DH correct me on history topics. It was my second-worse subject in school. I didn't develop an interest in history until I got old!

beebeel's picture

Exactly! I appreciate being "set straight" on topics that I'm not particularly knowledgeable. People who become super defensive and insulted when someone corrects a grammatical error always make me go, huh? If I looked like I didn't know the difference between to, too or two, I would WANT to know. Just like I want to know that coconut oil is great on skin, bad for four cylinders. Wink

barbKarin's picture

There is a difference between incorrectly using coconut oil in your car vs using "there" instead of "their".

And publicly correcting someone's grammar on facebook or on this site is never really done with good intent. It's meant to put someone down.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

barbKarin, if someone feels the need to educate me, I'd prefer they do it privately. I'm already blonde...don't make me look dumber than I'm already perceived...

barbKarin's picture

Precisely, do it privately with respect. Not on public Facebook posts. The very thought of it makes me cringe.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

In this day and age, I'm worried someone may try to gut me if I correct them without being asked...

Coconut oil is great for COOKING that four cylinder... Dirol

queensway's picture

Aniki I love your threads. You always come up with a great blog. Lets face it. If we are with people we love and share great conversations
who cares if the words are spelled wrong. Or if we are saying something to someone and we use slang words, I really kind of like it. It shows their personality. After all we are all unique individuals. Just say'in girl. Smile Smile Smile Smile

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Thank you, Queen!!

I agree with you. My DH sucks at spelling and his grammar is a somewhat weak. But he is one of the smartest people I've ever known and an endless source of knowledge. It's rare for me to ask a question to which he doesn't know the answer. There are times I ask him things simply because I'm testing his knowledge. In the past 8 years, I've only stumped him twice.

WalkOnBy's picture

I correct the grammar of those I care about for two reasons - one, it makes me cringe, and two, I don't want them to look stupid.

My husband says "acrossed" and I correct him Smile

He also says "went" when he really means "gone."

I am a proud grammar and punctuation bitch.

beebeel's picture

My DH is very grateful when I have (countless times) told him, "You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means." Biggrin

secondplace's picture

Yes! My DH thinks "ranting and raving" is because you really enjoy something. He uses it often.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

~pictures WOB in thigh-high black leather stiletto boots, black leather mini-dress, and red hot lipstick, cracking her Grammar bullwhip~

queensway's picture

OH MY. I kind of thought of her being a hot teacher with black rim glasses and her hair in a bun. And rock and roll music playing in the back ground.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Queen, what's under that floor-length schoolmarm dress is a whole 'nother story... Wink

Aniki-Moderator's picture

WOB, I'm not either, but I love my stilettos and leather! Wink

Don't deny me my little fantasy of you as Bad Teacher. LOL!

queensway's picture

My DH speaks two fluent languages. I guess I am used to words getting mixed up. But I do get a little freaked out when I know what he is going to say before speaks. I am still working on my second language.

momjeans's picture

My mother was gifted in the writing, spelling, and vocabulary department. She corrected me often enough that it stuck. In turn, I raised my oldest in the same fashion. My ex, DS’s father is a gifted guy, so he really benefited in having us hold him up to a higher standard.

If it matters, I went to art school; my ex graduated a year early from high school and went on to a 4 year college for a degree in electronics.

My DS is extremely articulate and it shows in every day things like reading his Facebook posts.

I love dogs's picture

I correct DH for the above mentioned reasons: I want him to speak properly so that people don't think that he isn't educated. He is a 9th grade dropout (got his GED) but is very handy and has great work ethic. Did I use the colon properly? Lol

I correct SD because she says she wants to be a writer. Also, because she can be a smart aleck and tries to correct DH or myself for stupid errors like typos. She uses commas after conjunctions instead of before or uses commas unnecessarily.

I'm not super great at English but I do try. I cringe at basic errors with there/ their/ they're, should/ would/ could HAVE, correct use of contractions/ possessive words, your/ you're, then/ than etc. I learned that in elementary school and assume all adults did.

What really bothers me is reading blogs on the internet that don't use correct spelling/ punctuation/ grammar when the author is writing a very public article. Shouldn't a writer for a website be well educated in these things? One last thing- when someone asks a question but puts a period at the end. No!

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Oooooooooooh, I love dogs, it chaps my arse when I read blogs, essays, or news articles by professional writers or journalists that are chock-full of errors. Pass the eye bleach!!!

I love dogs's picture

Yes! I just read one where your was used as you're and vice versa. I don't know if I'm the only one, but I read the two differently (comprehension, of course) and when speaking, I say them slightly differently.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Yep! Have fun translating that for someone who does not speak the language...

marblefawn's picture

Here's the thing with that. They hire "writers" for their tech skills or willingness to write for nothing. No self-respecting writer would be part of that if there were still newspapers around to hire us!

WalkOnBy's picture

What people fail to realize is that how they speak, write and come across online is part of putting your best foot forward. People WILL judge you, and they should.

It IS a reflection, whether you want it to be or not. Especially in these times, when so many relationships do not have the benefit of actual face to face contact.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

It seems to be less of a thing these days. I've known countless programmers who SUCK at writing. Their brains are wired for programming; not writing or conveying. MOST of my bosses are weak in grammar - 'tidying up' their stuff is one of my jobs. As I've gotten older and seen the importance of grammar and conversation take a nosedive, I judge more on knowledge and self-presentation.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

WOB, it IS one of the best ways to self present, but it's not the ONLY way.

I've worked with programmers who are bloody BRILLIANT. At programming. Do NOT ask them to write a training manual. Not only will it be full of misspellings and punctuation/grammatical errors, but they miss multiple (necessary) steps. They don't always speak proper English, either. Their minds are not 'programmed' for these things.

I wrote this below and I truly believe it:
I've come to realize that grammar/spelling/punctuation is, for some, the equivalent of Algebra/Geometry for me. No matter how hard they try, they simply cannot wrap their heads around it. It gets all jumbled up, becomes indecipherable, and is horribly frustrating.

Some people are bad at Math.
Some people are bad at Science.
Some people are bad at Art.
Some people are bad at English/grammar.

I don't judge people by the things at which they do not excel. I judge them by the way they treat people.

beebeel's picture

My DH is a software developer and always proofreads his stuff. He used to ask me to do it before he learned/taught himself better grammar. He has excellent spelling and grammar and he's a programmer.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

Beebeel... Jeez. I am NOT saying all programmers are bad at spelling/grammar. I have worked with programmers who are excellent writers (my brother AND BIL being two of them).

I was merely trying to say that spelling and grammar are not everyone's strong point. I've yet to meet anyone who excels at EVERYTHING. If a person struggled with Biology or History, I would not judge them on their 'deficiency' in that area. I judge on character and values.

WalkOnBy's picture

I agree that not everyone is good with it.

I also judge on character and values, but you better believe I am judging on all forms of presentation, including grammar Blum 3

notsobad's picture

“It IS a reflection, whether you want it to be or not. Especially in these times, when so many relationships do not have the benefit of actual face to face contact.“

THIS a thousand times!

WalkOnBy's picture

but for some.

I think it's a first impression issue, and since most of us here don't know each other personally, it's one of the few ways we can figure out what we think/how we feel about some folks.

I don't know the character of a lot of the people here, but I sure know how they spell Smile

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I suppose the biggest reason it doesn't have a huge impact on my perception of people is because I grew up with grandparents for whom English was their second language. There were so many Finnish-speaking folks in the area, that conversing in Finn was the NORM and conversing in English was atypical. My Dad did not learn how to speak English until he was almost 11 years old. Even as an adult, he rarely spoke English to his parents and two older siblings - they conversed in Finnish 90% of the time. Dad and his older siblings spoke in Finnish until his siblings died. He now has no one with whom he can converse in his native language. Sad

WalkOnBy's picture

Well, that is a whole different kettle of fish. I don't think anyone here has said anything about those for whom English is a second or third or even fourth language.

I would never correct someone whose native language is something other than English, though it's been my experience that they have better grammar and speaking skills than natives.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I love fish...

Acra was mentioned - English is not her first language.

Anyhoo, I maintain my stance. I do not judge anyone based on their grasp/lack of those skills any more than I would judge someone on their grasp/lack of math. For some, it simply does not "compute". Their brains are not wired in the same way. My DH is an avid reader, but his spelling is atrocious. He actually has a genius IQ (yes, he was tested).

beebeel's picture

You wouldn't judge a grown person who was unable to compute a basic adding problem? Really? I WOULD!! LOL

I don't judge people harshly if they end a sentence with a preposition or adverb; or if they forget that full sentences require a subject, verb and noun; or if they improperly use a semicolon. But if they don't know the difference between to and too? Um yeah. That's one plus one stuff.

If we communicated using mathematical equations (that would be cool!) We would judge people on math skills, too. But fortunately for those who can't do basic math, we do not.

notsobad's picture

I wonder, did he make grammatical errors in Finnish?
And if he did would others correct him?

Aniki-Moderator's picture

My Dad? My grandparents had very little schooling, so the answer is No. Dad learned English in school AND went on to master it. Any grammatical errors he may have made in Finnish as a youngster, he self-corrected as he never stopped learning/practicing his native tongue.

Acratopotes's picture

and here I am, thinking I'm doing good with the English....... just to here... grammar sucks Blum 3

Monchichi always corrected me lol, wonder what happened to her.... maybe Chucky got to her :?

secondplace's picture

There is a poster here who consistently spells the same word wrong, over and over again, in post after post. I really want to say something, because it drives me nuts. Her posts are fairly clear and concise for the most part, but this one word keeps popping up.

It won't even come up on spell check because the word she uses in its place is actually a word.

It's the difference between "belonging to or for the use of one particular person or group of people only" and "a group of shrubs and small trees of southern and eastern Asia".

And "of coarse" sends me round the bend.

ESMOD's picture

I am a spelling fail. Also, my grammar education was pretty lacking in school because we moved every darn year. I constantly would come into a class where something was taught the year before in that school system. My handwriting suffered, my spelling suffered and diagramming a sentence? blech...

I am thankful for spell check, but again, it doesn't catch everything. Feel free to correct me on private message.. but like my accounting professor that started to take points off because I couldn't spell receivable... it can be an uphill battle. lol.

ESMOD's picture

Thanks Smile

I think we would all do well to think about these three criteria before we give unsolicited advice.

1. Is it true
2. Is it kind
3. Is it necessary.

When I clue my DH in to his misuse of a word or an error in grammar I do it because:

1. He has truly made a mistake
2. Letting him know his error will allow him to correct it in the future and doing it privately is kind.
3. It is necessary because he may give people a poor impression of his intelligence. He is very smart but due to his occupation and upbringing he has been around a lot of incorrect speech.

Pointing out someone's misuse of language may be true, but the motivation behind a correction may not be kind and sometimes it's ok to just let it go... not every lapse needs to be corrected.

WalkOnBy's picture

I generally agree, but "necessary" is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

I tend to agree with your reasons for doing it.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

"Necessary" is definitely subjective. I do not find it necessary to correct acquaintances or strangers. I will only correct coworkers and friends if they ASK for my help. Smile