Disorder or Defiant?
Can anyone enlighten me to other views that may be possible in this scenario besides this kid believes the rules don’t just apply to him? I admit I’m jaded as his older brother & BM are manipulative for personal gain & I see many of those qualities present in SS. These continued behaviors I experience below do not help our household or my relationship with SS at all.
My SS9 always seems to “forget” he got in trouble for something and repeats the action again, often more than once. This is typically something he wants to do and has been told not to. When caught, he acts doom & gloom, sad & pouty, poor me. I see this behavior as a result of getting busted & not because he is upset he made the mistake or the impact it has on anything but him. I say that because his main concern is always what he will lose (usually electronics).
This morning he was watching a movie. He was told previously no movies in the morning until everyone is up due to sound level as the way they are produced is different than tv. The tv is directly under our bedroom & he watches action movies. His 2nd offense occurred the same week he was told no movies. I came down to him sitting on the floor close to the TV watching it & the response of “I forgot”. Obvious lie considering proximity to tv, volume level & discussion 2 days prior. This resulted in a huge blow up again of how he doesn’t listen/follow basic directions or think they apply to him and no TV in the morning for a couple of weeks. That was several months ago. This morning…a movie is on and the response of “I forgot”.
I believe this behavior is a “F-you I will do as I please” hoping not to get caught. Maybe I’m wrong & this is a disorder or something? I know when I got in trouble for something once I usually figured it out, twice, I certainly didn’t repeat, but not him, I just wait for the next repeat to happen. His dad has had repeated discussions with him about doing the right thing when no one is watching, integrity, made him copy down pages about integrity (this was an entire weekend of hell) and yet NONE of it sticks. To me this is a choice because it occurs again & again. All I can figure at this point is the 50% DNA he got has tainted the entire pool.
*Additional facts: SS lives here FT, is in counseling but amount of issues he has we can’t even begin to address them all. He has anxiety, undiagnosed/untreated but blatantly obvious. SO is hands on dad, not Disney dad wearing rose colored glasses. We see eye to eye (mostly) on parenting & I am allowed to parent (prefer not to). I have tried to disengage but I will not have my house controlled by anyone but the adults. SO was at work when this occurred & will not be pleased, he is just as frustrated with SS. He doesn’t see as much manipulation as I see but he has great concern given SS genetics & what older son has shown. SO & his oldest no longer speak.
The lure of the movies is too
The lure of the movies is too great.. it outweighs and overrides any potential punishment. I'm not sure it is as much outright defiance as an inability to exhibit self control. But.. I mean.. the kid IS only 9 years old.. it's not like he is a much older child.. and in fact.. it may be that he doesn't have the executive function in his mind to not push the rules at his age.
I am not advocating rewarding him.. but is there any thought to letting him watch TV in the AM with headphones at some point?
Maybe he needs a set time.. no electronics with volume before 7 AM.. or whatever the reasonable "awake" time is for your family..
Otherwise, you need for the consequences to increase to the point he is not willing to risk the reward.. a month no TV.. that might make him remember.
He CAN watch TV every morning
without headphones and we don't ever have a problem.
Maybe I should edit my post as the movie this morning was just an example of how he repeats things after being told not to do them & the answer is always "I FORGOT". I could literally give you 100 examples of this behavior, this was just one example that happened today, has happened twice before, & had a consequence that I don't know how you would forget. I just don't think he is "forgetting", that doesn't seem legit to me but maybe I'm wrong?
Clarity Post: My Question Is
Can a kid forget like this so much (I mean we are in the age of disorders) or is this just a lack of self control, IDGAF, and I forgot is the blanket answer when busted?
The morning movie was just 1 of 100 examples I can give of "forgetting" rules that have been enforced & even came with repercussions & we still forget.
Don't forget... "I don't know."
The universal blanket get out of jail free card in the mind of mentally deficient people of all ages.
A couple of yeaers of "I don't know." is what ended my first marriage. Not that I am at all bothered by that 30+ years later.
A clear perspective.... His father is an ineffective parent.
Only BM and older brother are mentioned as an issue. A slight mention of ineffective pernting by dad.
Nope. Your mate is the root cause of this crap in your life.
Time to stop worrying about the why and focus only on the what while applying a state of escalationg abject misery for this kid. Start with taking his access to any and all electronics except under direct hairy eyeball oversight by a present adult. So, no more movies for him. Ever. Except as part of family movie time.
Keep it simple.
Just my thoughts of course.
Adjust the WiFi settings so
Adjust the WiFi settings so the tv is unavailable until you want it to be. He is 9 and self control is a life skill that takes years to master. Some never achieve it. Set him up for sucess by limiting him. Make him earn that movie instead of giving him free reign. He won't magically be ready at 18 to launch , start teaching him now. Change his focus on what he can earn instead of what he can sneak and get away with.
What was his punishment for this?
None, " the talking too". How did this really effect him. He won. You must have a punishment system, first time x second time two x. So he knows if hi puts on a movie in the morning. He will lose his phone for two days. I am sure that he will understand that and next time it's a week of no phone.
He playing games with you, he is in control of the game, You must take back control.
I agree, talking to this kid doesn’t work
He needs a consequence every time he offends. His dad often talks to him & I say you are wasting your breath because he obviously doesn't listen & will repeat it again.
First offense can be a verbal
First offense can be a verbal reminder, beyond that.. a relative and increasingly strict consequence follows. He is 9.. will definitely have backslides... and trouble remembering or remembering to remember.
I understand it's not just the TV issue, but the same general concept applies.
First time.. you may not have realized the sound issue.. so you make a rule and explain it to him.. movies are too loud.. quiet TV shows at volume 8 or less (or whatever the reasonable volume on your set is).. or any shows can be watched with earphones.
Second time.. verbally remind of the rule and the set goes off until after breakfast.
Third time, verbal reminder, set is off for the rest of the day.
Fourth time, verbal reminder, set is off for the next three days
Fifth time Verbal reminder.. lose all electronics for 10 days
Sixth time loss of independent TV priveleges and extra chore assignments
Failure to adhere to loss of independent TV means TV gets "locked up" in some way.. so he cannot turn it on.
My patience isn’t set to 6!
I have a max of 3 reminders (especially if in a short time) and then I lose it. To me you just don't care by then. I will show you, explain the reason, ask of you have questions, confirm understanding etc and then there's just a point where we are done because you said you understood, and more than once. One thing I admit to is I don't have a lot of patience but on simple stuff I really don't. I feel like verbal warnings mean little to him because he doesn't really listen. I think he has ADHD because he often asks irrelevant questions in the middle of re-direction (although the teachers don't seem to think so). Last night while being talked to about a chore he said "I have a question?" & asked if he was being picked up at school on Thursday. Completely irrelevant to the conversation & no way he ingested any direction on the current discussion if that is what he was thinking about.
At that age esp if the kid
At that age esp if the kid has ADD, i find that punishments past the same day don't register. They stop linking up the punishment with the crime if it goes on too long. I preferred to make the punishments severe enough to have an impact, without endless warnings. Maybe one warning. But - giving my son a chance each new day to start fresh worked best. It drills home the fact that positive behavior=positive results and the opposite.
I’d bet on it
He has ADD and we know he has anxiety. Such a nice combo at 9 (almost 10). I don't know when medication starts (we started herbal drops for the anxiety) but probably not long enough in use yet for improvement, I see none so far. Someone in this house needs medication, in fairness it might be me!
To be fair.. the first
To be fair.. the first "offense" in my example was the first time telling him about the rule.
Of course it also depends on the relative frequency and kind of offense.. sure.. something you have to tell them multiple times in a two day period.. they need more at that point.
I might also suggest working on the communication with him. Make him repeat back the "rule".. then quiz him back on the rule..
SS, you are not allowed to watch movies on the TV before everyone is up and awake (or to be more clear.. set a specific time since he does seem to understand time).
What did I just tell you the rule was? (make him repeat it).
What do you think we mean.. do you think we mean you can watch a movie with low volume? make him answer.
Do you know why this rule is important.. "because people should be able to sleep in peace".. make him go through the whole thing.
He really sounds like he needs to be slowed down to maybe soak in the whole message.
He may hear for exampley.. the TV is loud.. dad comes and "yells at him to cut it off".. it's too loud for this time in the morning.. bla bla bla.. don't watch movies in the morning.. message might have gotten lost in the immediacy of that getting mad at him.. he may be shutting down a bit and not listening.
Maybe even go back later in the day to talk about it again..
Post notes for him if he needs reminders.. etc..
This!
As a teacher of kids with language disorders....this! Many kids (and adults!) don't really "hear" what you are saying. The look, the nod. Getting them to repeat it back is such a great strategy. A) makes them realise if they aren't taking it in and b) checks understanding.
also, visual visual visual. Speech is transient. Write rules out. Pin to wall. Point to rule. It does make a huge difference. Even a pic. Tv tick. Movies Cross.
typing on phone in bed so apologies for errors!
Yep. We also found that a single instruction followed by coming
to get us when it was done so we could verify helped.
Many kids and even some adults chose to not pay enough attention to instructions to effectively perform multiple step or activity instructions.
e.g. "Vacuum the living room then come get us so we can look at it."
This focuses the assignment, mandates follow up, and verifies completion to standard.
Lather.... rinse.... repeat.
IMHO, there is no second time. There is statement of standard
Period.
A repeat infraction, full misery inducing consequence... in an age appropriate manner.
A repeat.... returns such heinous misery that the kid will crumble into a snivling pile of protoplasm in an isolated corner at the very moment they even think about getting stupid.
Counting is failed parenting IMHO. Kids will always push to the last number in the count then comply. Until the idiot parent turns their back. Nearly everyone has been out and about while some idiot parent starts counting as their ill behaved refuse continues to do what they are not supposed to do.
So, no counting. One... and done. Then, escalating abject misery of such unpleasant nature that the kid will never even think about doing it again.
The first one that got SS's attention was during the height of the Yuh-gi-oh craze. SS was to keep a reading log as part of his school assigned homework. I noticed that he had been reading a book for weeks and his log had that book well into the thousands of pages range. The book only had about 500 pages. He was well aware that lying was a zero tolerance behavior in our home.
So, he came downstairs with his Yuh-gi-oh deck, shuffled them all. Then layed them on the counter in a grid face down and he chose 5 of them randomly. Then, he burned those 5. Of course all 5 were "Dad! But those are my best cards!!!". It was a tear fulled cry and begging fest. It broke my heart probably more than it idid his.
But, we did not have the lying problem again.
One, and done with misery inducing consequences is effective.
At least in my experience it is.
My parents did not count. Neither did we.
When they are punished so are we
When will kids get that? They act like we enjoy this! I'd prefer they play video games and enjoy time out of my hair but no, instead you don't listen & make dumb decisions repeatedly. Again I told SO he needs to start discussions with: 1st and final warning...that way there is no question & it's black & white.
I completely agree. Discipling a kid is also punishing ourself
IMHO the biggest challenge is applying highly effective punishment that does not require that the rest of people on the household suffering along with the miscreant.
We landed on sentences. Many of them. As he got older, it got into the tens of thousands. The problem was if he was required to do them constantly the rest of us couldn't do anything other than stay at home so he could write.
So, we adapted the punishment so if he was goofing off while he shoudl have been working, he could work (write sentences) when he should be enjoying himself. And... if we went out and about, he came with us but the second the door opened when we arrived back home he was in the designated isolated room in a torturously uncomfortable wooden antique school desk writing.
If he walked through the family room. The TV was immediately turned off.
Full immersion consequences were what worked with SS.
Disable the TV when the
Disable the TV when the adults are not present.
SS18 was this way
He would "forget" that he shouldn't open mail that didn't belong to him. Or conveniently forget things (oh, I forgot that juice was DD8's and I shouldn't have had it). It was definitely worse as a kid, but like other posters said, it needs to be addressed and consequences need to be given so that it's not an issue to launch him as an 18 year old.
Ironically tonight
When he unloaded the dishwasher he left the kitchen & didn't shut the dishwasher door or put several items away & when SO called him on it his response was "I forgot". I said to SO-well there you go, you literally got the blanket excuse for everything he doesn't want to do now, it's "I forgot". SO was mad & told him we are done with answers of "I don't know" and "I forgot" because it only means you don't want to think, try or pay attention so rid them from your excuse box!
It sounds like he is just
It sounds like he is just using the words as a blank excuse..
It could mean.. I remembered.. but didn't want to.
I got distracted and didn't finish.
I rushed through my task and didn't do it fully..
I would remind his dad.. he is 9.. and maybe dad needs to stand over him a bit more to ensure things are fully accomplished for a while.
100% Accurate
We no longer allow those responses. BM did nothing to raise him (he was her paycheck) & she answered everything for him or it was multiple choice to pick from. He doesn't know how to think & it's alarming so he has found these "excuse phrases". He literally panics if he is forced to respond & it seems to be getting worse, mostly because we don't allow the escape answers anymore. He is in counseling & IMHO has obvious anxiety that cripples him in many ways. However, we can't use that as an excuse for everything or coddle him because that's exactly why he is in this position. He was improving but since BM returned he has spiraled in so many ways, it's sad & frustrating.
Kids will test to see what
Kids will test to see what they can get away with. If it's fun, they will keep doing it if they get away with it, and it sounds like SS gets away with it. Really, people in general are that way. To a kid that age, giving them a "talking to" and nothing else is basically telling them it's ok.
Escalate the Punishment
Every child is different so I can only tell you what I did/do with mine.
My SDs never had issues with their behavior until they left the house and began to hang out with their dad.
However, in my five bio kids, I hear the "I forgot" excuse all the time. At first, I glossed over it and eventually, I could see they were using it as an easy way out.
With my two sons, I escalated the punishments. They have chores to complete every day and if they "forget" to pick up the dogs poop (the dog they begged me for) then they get double chores such as having to clean their sister's room (which they hate) or walking the dog another 30 minutes (which they hate).
With my daughters, they are younger but I get creative with them as well.
Honestly, I just find something they hate to do that needs to be done and make them do it and it seems to work.
My sons play football and one is pretty good. The other day I came home and heard him back talk his mother and I immediately took that week's game away from him. He balked, cried, and tried to talk his way out of it. I could have asked him to scrub the entire house with a toothbrush and he would have done it to play in that game. I did not give in and I let his coach know that he would not be playing because he disrespected his mother. When he went to the next practice after the game the coach got on to him and asked him to watch his mouth because his team needs him.
I was happy the coach reinforced me on that one. He has watched his mouth ever since.
I don't think these things are all that hard but you just have to have the stomach to stick to your guns. If they say "I forgot" then I say "Let me help you remember" If they say "It's an accident" then I say "That accident can't happen"
Obviously, I am not ridiculous and if my kids accidentally drop a glass and it breaks I don't punish them, but if they throw the football in the living room and take out the lamp...then they will be paying for it.
Each of my kids knows that and I tend to be creative in the punishment so they never know exactly what is coming. The I forgot excuse is still used in my home but it is not used as much. In fact, my two older boys will stop mid-sentence now because they know that excuse will not help them.
As a step-parent, I reinforced my wife, but like I said earlier my SDs were well-behaved until they started hanging out with Disneyland dad.
Now to be fair, my oldest son is a good kid but is an AIRHEAD. There are times I see him really trying and he just misses something. I don't come down on him too hard. He knows he is scatter-brained (which I can be) so I have tried to teach him to cut out distractions while he is doing something and to slow down. That has helped him. He isn't intentionally doing it, unlike my other son who just wants to say things to get us off his back.
There is actually a study that has shown that boys tend to not hear as well as girls. I wish I could remember where I heard that.
You don't want them to
You don't want them to analyze your "go to" punishment and weigh the value of risking it.. like someone willing to pay a toll penalty because they get away with it most of the time..
He's getting more from
He's getting more from continuing the behavior then stopping. Time to take a look at the function of the behavior - what is he getting out of it.