My SO and I had a heart to heart conversation
Well for starters we are not on the same page as to where are relationship should be. He wants to take a step back and I would like to move forward. I am still working through everything that has been said and I am just going to list out somethings that were said.
He feels like the girls mostly not getting along is a cause for pause. During the pandemic we all lived together because it was just easier. He has an only daughter amongst boys and I have only girls. Let just say the girls did not particular get along. At my SO house he has like an in law suite that is self-contained which is his DD’s space. It has her tv, nail station, keyboard, reading area and desk; basically a girl cave. The boys are not allowed in there unless they ask his DD for permission. This is a general rule in his house each kids has to ask the other kid to enter each other’s space or even his space. The boys by the way have regular sized rooms.
To be fair to his DD, the boys are a rascals; the stuff they do are annoying at best and horridly gross at worst. And my SO encourages that “playfulness” from the boys. So I get why she would want space from the boys.
Now enter me and my girls and his DD is not the only girl in the house. For starters, my two girls were sharing a room in the spare room. Which I was fine with, everyone was fine with that. However, his DD still wanted to impose a none of the other kids are allowed in her space unless she said so. I was not happy about this at all and neither were my girls. I would admit that all girls including mine were behaving like a bunch of mean girls to each other. And the respective kids were punished each and every time.
Now on my SO and I talk yesterday, he said that he was concerned about some of his DD’s behavior because he had never seen that sort of behavior from her. I also learned that his DD has been sharing some of the not so nice things that my kids did to her to her BM. And BM reached out to my SO to “see what is going on”. Now mind you there has been no physical violence by anyone here. Yelling, sure; doing stuff to make each other uncomfortable or upset, sure. But, that is no reason for his DD to be running to BM and telling her especially when we are or were dealing with it. I asked him if his DD had also been running to his aunt too or talking about the unkind things she did to my girls. He said his aunt had never spoken to him about any of the stuff between the girls.
I think his DD was very selfish toward my girls. She was allowed to be in full interaction with the family when she pleased and then retreat in her cave when she pleased too. In retrospect, whenever, my SO was hanging out with my girls she was always there. Which says a lot about his DD because she would spend hours in her cave. And I actually found his DD likeable by the way. She is good about doing chores, tidying up after herself; she is very helpful. A little OCD as well about her things. Now I do not know how to feel about her except betrayed I guess.
Secondly, he did acknowledge that his family was uncomfortable to be around for me. He said that he was part of the problem because for so many years he had allowed BM to run his relationships. He had not realized it either until partially after the divorce with the kids. And in bringing me around with his other family members.BM was a kind of a middle man that facilitated the relationships.
He did not however, see BM overinvolvement as a factor though. He saw it as him not being attentive or involved enough in their lives.
He and BM apparently did co-parenting counseling and they were told that doing joint events were good and they need to support each other as parents. Hence, why pre-me they did “family” vacations, dinners and other activities together. BM and to a lesser degree my SO also check-in on the kids via each other via text. Now I do get that BM is not just a parent to the kids but also a homeschooler so it is not cut and dry.
In the end he said he did not want to break up. But he doesn’t think we should push forward until our kids start getting along better or when they are adults and we don’t have to live with them. But he does not want to live with the fighting from the girls.
In the end I said I too did not want to break up. I also do not think the issue with the girls are unbridgeable they just have to get used to each other. My girls argue and hold grudges all the time but that is just the nature of girls. I grew up with sisters whilst my SO has 2 brothers and a sister which is way way younger than him and his brothers. But I also said that I needed him to make sure that his family knew that I was his family. And be willing to set boundaries if they do not treat me as such. He did agree that a relationship between true partners is a priority but from his perspective, that is true for the adults but the kids relationship with the parent is the most important relationship for the kid so long as they are minors.
Lastly, this wasn’t something that we talked about yesterday because it is a no go subject for my SO. But since I am laying all the cards for your advice I may as well mention it. BM and my SO had a child that died a few years back. My SO pretends that it did not happen. He did not even tell me about it. I found out through one of his cousins bringing it up about less than 6 months of us dating. But whenever I bring it up, he completely shuts it down by changing the subject or I don’t want to talk about it. He doesn’t have any visible pictures or anything. It is like the child never existed.
I am also sorry if this is super long; I am just trying to work through my feelings. And in the past you guys have really given me some good advice
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He sounds like he's been thinking it through
Your SO sounds insightful, we dont always see that on Steptalk. He is being honest. And, you are rational, too. I'd be inclined to go along with him. I'm not sure but it sounds like there 5 kids in this mix? "Girls did not particularly get along", "The boys are rascals", " SD was very selfish", - why would you want to move forward with all this going on?
I would ask yourself whether you would be happy waiting a few years when more of them are launched. If you are unhappy with that scenario and want a more committed relationship now, then Id break with him and find another. In any case, live separately. Good luck.
That is one thing I love and
That is one thing I love and hate about him. He has no problem being direct which sometimes it is a great thing other times it just isn't.
I guess I am open to being a team in parenting. He acknowledged that his DD could do wrong and I can do the same for mine. Having been raised with sisters and having girls myself, I do not think any of the behaviour was way out there. It's just that girls can be more catty or hold grudges as opposed to guys. I think my SO was surprised that his "sweet" DD could be that catty.
As for his DD being selfish that is the tricky part because I think it has to do with parenting too. She hasn't really had to share her things partly because her brothers aren't intrested in them and partly because if they are interested in them it usually ends up broken. She also has become accustomed to being the only girl in the house and she defintely has my SO wrapped around her finger. I do think it is unfair that she basically has a studio apartment where as everyone else only have a basic bedroom.
As for the boys, they are not disrepectful or rude they are just high energy and love to play pranks which is funny the first few time but after a while it becomes annoying. There are problems but it isn't beyond the pail for me.
I'm in a similar situation to
I'm in a similar situation to you. SO's family is from another culture, as is BM2, and i'm clearly an outsider. Issues with kids (except i'm the one who has an issue with one of his that makes me not want to live with him.) Previous enmeshment before i came along (BM cooked family dinners at his house!) At this point, i think i would go nuts if i didn't have my own house. Maybe living apart would be good for you. It might give you some peace and perspective.
I agree that having
I agree that having boundaries before you get in a new relationship is so important. Unfortunately, my SO had co-parenting counselling that support enmeshment as a positive relationship for the kids.
IDK
OP I am glad you and SO communicate.
Here is the BUT...BM. BM always being there. That will always be a thorn in your side. Also the family is uncomfortable around you. Sounds like they do not want outsiders to be fully included.
His DD, and yours. Fire and rain.
Sounds like you have to suck alot up just to be part of this dynamic.
However you do what is good for you. Be prepared for a life of some kind of drama.
It is positive that both you and your SO do want to work it out. Blessings and luck .
LTA
Living together apart sounds like the only way to make this work. The things you find bothersome now, will be unbearable when you live together with no chance of a break. And why would you put all 5 kids through that, just so that you and your SO can live together. You're very aware that it's stressful on the kids to blend, but you're hoping to do so anyway, just to make the adults happy. I think it's wonderful that you're both taking the time to talk this out and honestly assess what's best for all.
I also think you have some very firm sterotypes that do not match your SOs very firm sterotypes - and that's not the kind of thinking that goes away quickly. I grew up with a sister. We are not catty. We do not hold grudges. The behaviour that you found "typical" or even acceptable because "girls will be girls" would not have been tolerated in my family. I also grew up in a family where the bedroom was a no trespassing zone. If I wanted to be alone, I went to my room and nobody was allowed to enter without my permission. Not even if I wasn't in it. Same for my siblings. If I wanted to be around people I came out of my cave and enjoyed time with my family watching TV, chatting or taking trips etc. It wasn't considered selfish in my family. It was just the house rule and expectations. And your DH seems to think "boys will be boys" means that their annoying little pranks are endearing. They're not. They're exhausting, as you've discovered.
But neither of you is likely to see that your way is just that, "your" way. You find his daughter's preference to be alone, have personal space, and avoid anyone who is catty or grudge holding as being spoiled. He likely thinks she's being well behaved by removing herself from the conflict. On the other hand he probably doesn't understand why you don't love the rambunctious nature of his boys, without realizing that he's reinforcing male sterotypes.
I think you two may be wonderful adults together, but your parenting styles and expectations would not lead to a peaceful home. And that could eventually break you up. Whereas living apart allows you to enjoy each other's company, without each others children!
Likewise here. "Catty" and
Likewise here. "Catty" and "mean girl" behavior would have been dealt with swiftly and harshly at my house. And our rooms were also personal space that no one entered without permission.
I do see that it's hard for one person to have a mini suite and for two people to share a standard room, but I wouldn't see that as a reason to change their house rules about what is private space. How old are the kids? As they start to leave the nest, rooms can be rearranged.
For the time being though, living apart seems like a good idea.
I do not chalk up catty
I do not chalk up catty behavior to girls being girls and not deal with it as a parent. I most definitely make it known that, that behavior is unacceptable. I was simply trying to say it was not on the verge of abusive or outrageous behavior.
I guess my DDs have shared a room for most of their lives so the whole Lady over my space was never a thing. But his DD has not only her own bedroom and bathroom but her own living room and a kitchen. No one else have that much space to retreat to. If my DDs or the boys retreat to their rooms all they have is a bed, a desk, a shelf of books and night stands not even a television. How is that fair?
But the little pranks and rough housing do get old quick. And my SO definitely thinks they are funny and even get in on the "fun".
Whatever is 'fair' in his
Whatever is 'fair' in his house is his issue though, since you aren't technically fully living together. Do your daughters not have their own place to retreat in their home with you? DO you only have a two bedroom place ?
It is his issue if it is just
It is his issue if it is just his kids. Blend my kids in there and looking back it was unfair and was my issue. However, I did not realize how strict the rule was in his house or else I may have felt differently about it earlier as I feel about it now.
Yeah of course my kids have my house and he never stays over here with my kids. But, during the pandemic we never spent the night at my place; we mostly checked up on it, collected mail etc.
But you were house guests.
But you were house guests. What fairness are you demanding?
Him never staying in your house kind of shows where he stands. Stop going to his house and see how relationship goes. It is likely to fizzle. It seems you are forcing commitment by always going there. Just stop going to his house and stay in your own.
And if fairness is important to you then how is it fair for your kids to be dragged to your boyfriend's house where you are saying they aren't even treated well. It's not fair to your kids. Let them live in their own home
He stays at my house too. I
He stays at my house too. I just meant that if he has his kids and I have mine we stay at his house because he has the space for it.
ETA: I did not realize how strict the privacy rules were at the time because pre-living together everyone was getting along. His DD and my kids were also getting along very well and she allowed them to come into her space and wathc movies together. They even would fall asleep in there.
Just because she was kind
Just because she was kind enough to let them in there occasionally does not mean that she agrees to forfeit her space. I have friends I invite for dinner but I don't expect them to keep turning up every day to get fed.
Well it's his house (I assume
Well it's his house (I assume it's his) so to all honestly even if you don't like how they run things, they are within their rights to run their household the way they see fit.
It might not appear fair but it's not your house and you don't even officially live there so as guests you can't demand they accommodate you according to your preferences.
We have a nice guest room with a bathroom but I'd be taken aback if my house guests complained their bathroom is smaller than mine or the house rules are not right or they don't have as much stuff as us, people who actually live there. That would be a bizarre complaint. As a guest you appreciate what's given or you don't stay over.
In my understanding you have your own home. If you disliked how the household runs and how your kids are treated there, why were you there? Why subject your kids to this?
I am only talking about this
I am only talking about this from a retrospective prosprective. For me it is an unfair arrangement to my kids and if we were to ever officially live together it would have to change. Since we are living separately it is a non issue to me and mine.
If you both bought a house
If you both bought a house and decided how things are and then he changed thd rules, then I can see how it's unfair. How can you argue that arrangements they have in their house is unfair to your kids who are visitors? I am completely puzzled by your logic.
How old are the kids, how
How old are the kids, how many years from launching? Your dh is right to be cautious-doesn't sound like a good blending situation. A lof of us waited to get married till kids were over 18- that said -I honestly feel like you two would be happier and the kids would be happier living apart but still in a relationships vs living together.
I agree space allocation was
I agree space allocation was highly unfair. Your children shouldered all of the disruption. This is why you never move into his space. Stepping back is an option; although, it would be a deal breaker for me. I would not be willing to be a booty call because he wanted to alow his children to rule the roost. Would your SO be willing to find an our space?
Why is it unfair? House
Why is it unfair? House guests don't get to demand bigger place and better rooms. They stay in whatever rooms they are given
I think it's unfair in a real
I think it's unfair in a real blending project. However, in a guest perspective, it sounds logical that kids don't share their own space with "outsiders"
You are guests
So I see it as you are guests in his home. You have your own place; his home is not an ours space.
Guests don't get a say in how the space is allocated. I also don't think it's fair for the girl to have so much space but that would be under the circumstance that you moved in and got rid of your other home. It's a big change for a teen to have to give up a space that they are used to having. Of course that is going to cause resentment on her part.
Sounds like your bf isn't into the drama. I honestly can't blame him. My one teen SS drives me up the wall.
Did you spend a lot of time over there pre-pandemic? Or did you just move in for the lock down and ended up spending immense amounts of time together? I guess I'm wondering if all of these issues came up under lockdown because you were together so much.
I also don't think it's
I also don't think it's unusual or some kind of betrayal for his DD to tell her mom that your kids are causing problems or fight with her. Its quite normal for kids to tell mom and dad id they are having issues with other kids: at school or at home. Why is it bad for kids to tell their mom they had a fight with another kid? Who is his DD betraying?
I agree. When things bother
I agree. When things bother you, you go to your parents about it and her mother was simply worried about how her daughter was being treated - perfectly normal in my book.
I don't understand though, why you expected his daughter to start letting others walk into what had been her private space forever just because you and your daughters turned up. The situation before you arrived suited everyone in their home, why should they upend that now? Did you discuss changing the bedroom setup with your bf before you moved in?
"This is a general rule in
"This is a general rule in his house each kids has to ask the other kid to enter each other’s space or even his space."
I think you guys should keep that rule. I realize that the concept of personal space varies by individual and by culture, but for people who value their privacy, having others come into their bedroom without asking feels like a huge violation. I'm someone who needs a "cave" to retreat to sometimes and i would lose my crap if i didn't have at least one place to go to be alone or just with my SO.
It is more that instead of
It is more that instead of talking things out with us she went to BM instead about it. And BM coaching her on how to deal with my girls. I did not like that at all.
Maybe she felt that she would
Maybe she felt that she would not be heard. Also, she's not going to talk things through with you rather than go to her mother. Few kids would ... Remember, you are still only her father's girlfriend AND you brought the troublesome items (i.. your daughters) into her home AND you are trying to winkle he out of her private space. Her mother is, well... her mother.
I understand you don't like
I understand you don't like it but kids will confine in their parents. I don't see how this is wrong or unusual. You expect his DD to talk to you, dad's girlfriend, before she talks to her mom? Your expectations are unusual. You want your children accommodated differently in his house, you want them to change how they do things, you don't want them to have privacy because you brought your kids there, you don't want kids to complain to their mother.
These are all unreasonable expectations.
I expected her to talk to her
I expected her to talk to her dad about it. Instead she made BM the middle man in communication.
She has two parents and she
She has two parents and she went to the one she felt more comfortable talking to in this particular situation. She was not sneaking, she was not putting her mother in the middle. She simply confided in her mother. What's wrong with that?
That's her mom. Not a
That's her mom. Not a stranger. Many people confide in their mothers their whole life. Yes many confide in their fathers as well. It's not wrong to share with one's mother though. Do your kids not share with you? Do you not share with your mother? What's the big deal? Again you state how you "expect" things to run in other homes and other families. But you can only expect things in your home. They do things how they expect them done in their lives and you can't control that.
Her talking to her mom is not
Her talking to her mom is not the issue. However, her not saying anything to her dad at least but instead talking to her mom about issues in her dad's house and then having her mom talk to my SO; that is the issue.
My kids definitely have issues that the come to me about. I also confide in my mom. But my mom does not call the people I have issues with to solve my problems neither do I do that for my daughters as it pertains to issues that they have at their dad's house.
Perhaps she was not
I understand you don't like how BM does things and you believe you do things better but you can't control how they do things. If your SO doesn't put a stop to it, it means it doesn't bother him. You can't make other people change their ways.
Her mother did what she
Her mother did what she thought was right - she spoke to her ex. Discussing their children and their issues is a very normal thing for a divorced couple to do. Where's the problem?
Space Equality
Just as a thought - before you and your kids came along it was Dad, his boys, and his daughter. Dad and the boys rough house, play pranks, and are in general loud and boistorous. They have the run of the house. Which means the living room (common area) is likely a loud, lively place. He has only one girl. He gave her the run of a space (likely basement I imagine?). It's her retreat. Where none of the loud team-play happens. You find it unfair because she has "so much space". But I don't imagine his boys find it unfair. They seem to be social kids, who like to hang with each other and get in each other's space. She's polite, but not into that level of play. Everyone has a bedroom they can retreat to with the expectation of complete privacy. Everyone has a living room they can go to with the expectation that it will be noisy. I don't imagine she goes up to the common areas and asks everyone to sit quietly so she can read, or play quietly on a computer.
It worked for them, and no one seemed put out from your description. The only reason it doesn't "work" any more is because you are introducing two more girls to the situation. Girls who have always shared a space with each other, (not always peacefully). And you think she should have to do the same. But she wasn't raised that way.
When I bought my first house it had TINY bedrooms. Like, a bed and a dresser tiny. But it was important to me that no one had to share a room. Not because I was rasing spoiled children, but because it was how I was raised, and how I wanted my children to be raised.
Just a futher perspective. When you've raised kids to the ages of your mutual kids, it might be easier to just finish the job and launch them, rather than trying to change the ground rules and join households.
Obviously this is a parenting
Obviously this is a parenting difference between my SO and I and by no means am I parenting his kids. But I think in the real world you cannot escape from your problems or conflicts you have to face them. Which is also partially the problem of her having her mini apartment. Instead of dealing with sibling (I use that word VERY loosely here) conflicts she can escape to her cave. If she had a standard bedroom she would most likely have to spend time with the family beyond meal times and work through conflicts.
" If she had a standard
" If she had a standard bedroom she would most likely have to spend time with the family "
I'm not sure I agree. I have a couple of teen daughters who spend the majority of their free time in their respective (pretty standard) bedrooms and, from what I hear from their friends' mothers, it's par for the course ...
My parents joked I lived
My parents joked I lived alone at their house when I was a teenager. I pretty much stayed holed up in my room.
I had to come to the
I had to come to the realization that remaining living apart until my daughter launches is the best option. I've had my own place and my kids have had their own rooms for the past 11 years. Cohabiting would decrease their standard of living if they ended up sharing rooms. My son has moved out and my daughter is almost 16. What's a few more years?
I may be wrong but is there
I may be wrong but is there some resentment that his DD has a mini-apartment at her DAD's house? This is THEIR home, not yours and life isn't "fair." What would be fair about you moving into THEIR world and you all of a sudden dictating who gets which space, in THEIR house? This is resolved by either A - staying together while living separately or B - purchasing a home TOGETHER with 5 bedrooms for the KIDS, where each bedroom is exactly the same square footage and the exact same layout so none feels outdone. I also think it's silly that you would be upset that DD spoke to HER mom about the issue. That's her mom. LOL..
OP, I think it's odd you seem
OP, I think it's odd you seem to believe your DDs should have had full access to SD's girl cave. Was SD supposed to move out of her space so your girls could take it over as theirs? That's the vibe I'm getting. I don't understand why you think it was unfair to you and your kids SD had such a nice set-up, and had a reasonable expectation of privacy.
I do not think that she
I do not think that she should move out of her space. But I do not see why her living room area should not be communal. If it was a don't touch, sit on her bed or keyboard or use her stuff. I get that. Also I do not agree with my DDs taking over the space but sharing the space with respect for his DD's things of course.
Just to add, I did not take these issues up with his DD nor did I represent them as my thoughts to my DDs.
So you think that her private
So you think that her private area should be communal. But that's their house and it's how they do things. And they don't think her private area should be communal.
You can want people do things differently in their houses but you cannot expect that actually happening. As a house guest you respect the rules that are established there or you don't stay over. If you want things run differently, you run them differently in YOUR house. Not other people's houses. Not realistic.
Communal as in everyone in
Communal as in everyone in the home had access to the living area, or communal as in SD would have to share with your DDs?
Bottom line? It's not your house, and not your place to decide who gets what room.
It's HER SPACE. Her communal
It's HER SPACE. Her communal area, HER room, her mini loft, whatever it is, it is HERS. You stated that she is OCD, do you know how hard it would be for someone with OCD to see other people in their space? Wrinkling their couch pillows, stepping on their rug, invading their space? This is super bizarre, I'm sorry, usually I'm all for equality when it comes Bio's and Skids, but in THIS case, nope, you are mistaken.
If I were his DD, I wouldn't
If I were his DD, I wouldn't be too keen on sharing with non-related people who don't even live with me just because my dad is dating their mother. This is weird. This is their house. Your SO has configured it the way that works for all of his kids. Now he has to take your kids into account? It's not your house. This whole thing is messy. Bringing five older kids together and expecting equity in what is their home is awfully presumptuous.
After reading this thread I
After reading this thread I understand why SO wants to slow relationship down. It sounds that you and your kids believed you could change how things are done in their home and it caused your kids violating his kids privacy and fighting with his kids up to the point of yelling etc
It sounds that your SO isn't ready or isn't interested in commitment. Part of it could be because unfair demands were placed on his DD in HER house. She was expected to give up her privacy and when she did not budge she was treated poorly by your kids.
He puts his children first. I suggest you put your children first too and figure out why they are so catty and argumentative and teach them how to act especially when they are house guests. They can't act like this in other peoples homes. Focus on your children and their manners and overall well being. Relationships and men could wait