Conflicted & Confused....
Yesterday our son (10) spent the day & night with a friend, and while I was on the computer last night, I over heard HD on the phone talking with SD, telling all about his day, yada. yada.... Sooo, I went into the living room and sat down and point blank asked him why it is that he can talk to his kids (SS-25 & SD-22)and I feel left out because he's not telling me anything? So, he opened up, and told me he's going through some things right now, the Heart Attack must have got him thinking about his life, he said that there have been MANY times in the past few years that he would ask the Lord to just go ahead and take him, that he's ready to go home!!!! And that the Heart Attack (and survival) had shown him that he's not done here yet! But that he is confused and don't take it the wrong way, but he is questioning himself if he really wants to stay married! So, I told him that I want HIM to be happy, that it's time he started living life for HIMSELF, no one else!, if that means a divorce, so be it! That it's time he should live his life for himself now. If that means without me, I will survive! (I am, if nothing else, a survivor) of course, as you are reading this, you probably are thinking I am stating all of this calmly, but I'm not! I started crying and told him that all I want is for him to be happy, and yes, I had been thinking along those lines myself, (mainly because I see he has never REALLY put me first, stood up for me ect.... He has stated before that he knows I can take care of myself!!!) I told him that just here recently I had begun to think maybe he married me just to help him raise he's kids?!?! No answer from him!!!! This morning, I asked him if he had been thinking this way BEFORE the Heart Attack? and he said yes, sort of, because I hadn't been going places with him in a while (I was wondering when he would bring that up!, places usually meaning, with his ADULT kids, NEVER just us, usually, If you have read my past posts, we have had a house full of people ever since December and loads of stress) So the EVER practical me, told him, that if this is the road he's going to take, that my first priority is our son, that there will be no ONE PARENT DEAL, that we are going to do the 50/50 deal, that this is HIS house, always will be, (yes, I know most of you are thinking, it’s MINE too, but this land has been in his family for generations, I am not a person who will take away his HOME, BUT,that being said! I’m not a dummy either, I know how to protect myself, and I will!) I told him I am going to need his help in getting myself together.... He said he doesn't even KNOW if he can live without me! He told me not to go getting ahead of myself, he's just very confused right now! I said, fine…. but I'm not waiting forever either!!!! And yes, I still love him! But I also DO NOT want a man who does NOT want me!
What would YOU do????
And men out there, what do you think?????
hangingin
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Oh my.. First of all HUGS
Oh my..
First of all HUGS to you.. I think you need them for sure. I can not believe he said those words to you... and then in the same breath that he doesnt know if he can live w/o you. He sounds to be religious. I would have him contact his pastor/minister/spiritual advisor and have him talk out his feelings w/that person, someone that is unbiased, and wont be hurt by his PONDERING...
Have you considered moving you and your son out of the house as in a seperation to see how things go? Its too bad that he can not see what he has in front of him. His adult children will go on to lead their own lives, and he will just be alone at that point.
Again, HUGS... to you and your son.
What a blow
Wow, I suppose you didn't see that coming and the sock in the stomach couldn't have felt very good. The good I see in that interaction though is that he shared with you honestly and openly about his feelings and you maintained your dignity, and showed kindness and respect. So as difficult as it was, Kudos to you both. I think FrustratedinMA had a good suggestion to suggest he seek counseling at church, since that sounds to be a solid force in his life. I would also suggest marriage counseling. If he is willing to be honest with you and you are willing to listen, you stand a very good chance of working this out. I'm sorry for your pain, I hope you find peace soon.
Sorry
Sounds selfish to me, this "I don't know if I am happy with you but I don't know if I can live without you" is crap. Granted, anytime anyone goes through a life-altering event they start re-evaluating their lives and their relationships, but sounds to me as though he wants to keep you around as a back-up.
I would give him a time frame for him to figure this out, but it's definitely not fair to you to keep you on the hook like this. Believe me, I've had enough carrots dangled in front of my face to know when I am being used and / or taken advantage of. It hurts.
Yeah!
I forgot the CRUEL part. It *is* very cruel to do that to someone. It's not much fun living in that kind of limbo, either.
What are we here for
I've been reading everyone's responses and have wondered why my response seems contrary to the whole. So my first question is what kind of support are you looking for hangingin? I think it's fair to support eachother, even in cyberspace, the way a friend would. Do you want us to help you out the door? Are you looking to feel okay for your pain? Do you want us to encourage you through the difficult future? Because, depending on what you need, this group will give it to you.
I responded based on my personal belief about marriage. I'm a step mom and on this site for that reason. But, I married my husband for the first and last time. That is my belief. I believe marriages should be worked through. Sometimes, life will throw us curve balls, and we can't stay where we are. Maybe, since the both of you have shared feelings that question your relationship, this is an area where you need to delve deeper into yourselves to see what you really want.
Personally, I don't think it's fair to advise you to leave your husband, give ultimatums, or be reactionary without knowing what you want and need. I believe marriages are sacred. I know, my husband is divorced and it doesn't fall perfectly into my world view, but, I can still act with faith and belief that there is hope for marriages to work. Sometimes we need outside help. Sometimes we need to face our demons and accept the person for who they are and not what we hoped they would become or would be after tying the knot. Sometimes we have to be the objective friend who understand the emotional turmoil of our partner without taking it personally. Sometimes we have to face our own demons and look internally to see who we are.
I love everyone on this site. I divulge my emotions, fears, anger, everything here because it appears to be a safe place. I may be talking on a computer, but I am talking to real people with real feelings and real problems.
So, I am taking "hangingin" post seriously. We're talking about her marriage and her life. I can't just kneejerk and say "get the hell out". There is soooo much more to it.
The support I NEED is
encouragement through the difficult future that I am facing! Right now, I am giving him all the space he needs to work this out in his head! I am going to go to counciling next week. I am trying VERY hard NOT to get ahead of myself,as HD has asked me too. Today I told him that if he wants to make "us" work, then we BOTH are going to need to work really hard TOGETHER! He didn't say a word,just turned away, but I could tell he was thinking about what I said. This town is pretty small and if word got out that we were contemplating Divorce, every Tom, Dick & Harry would put their two cents in. So for me, this is a safe invironment to share with seasoned, battle scarred pros who have had to "fight" everything, just as I have. So, as time goes on, I will keep all of you posted as we go into counciling, and I will need every bit of support that all of you can muster.
Thanks again for "listening" and sharing, you are very much appriciated.
hangingin
Good for you...
YES YES YES!
Your own personal counselor. Whether he will join you or not. Good for you.
This is one huge fork in the road, and I agree with Kathleen that you can't have a knee jerk reaction.
But I'm not with the sacred marriage thing (guess since I'm divorced myself, and have been in love with a married man who I thought was leaving his marriage too) so I do say that you really have to figure out what's best for you and do it.
When I left my first H it was a necessity of the soul. Every day there I felt a piece of me dying. I tried to get him to come along with me, grow with me, but he wanted me to stay the same 22 year old he married.
Then when I was single and fell for the married man, I stayed away, came back, tried so hard to be encouraging of whatever was best FOR him. Every decision I made I made out of love for him. And in the end when he couldn't leave and wanted a shot at fixing his marriage I walked away for him as well.
BUT...I was still stuck on him for a few years. I had to dig deep and find that woman who wouldn't settle in my first marriage and get her to light a fire under the shell of a woman I had become, stuck on someone who didn't make every decision out of love as I had, but rather fear (this reminds me of you H right now with his- not sure I can stay here but not sure I want you gone- message.) When people work from fear they don't choose. They let default guide them.
So go to that counselor. Figure out what is best for YOU first. Believe me whatever that is will also be what's best for your son. And if you can't wait for your H to work through this, or he drags his feet hoping you'll make a decision and spare him the pain, then you do whatever you need next.
My heart's with you. Please be warned... in these deep matters of the heart, your path is destined to be a pretty long one before you near the end of the difficult journey.
"Om Tare Tutare Ture Mama Ayurpunye Jnana Putin Kuru Svaha"
~Sita Tara Mantra
Don't get me wrong, Kathleen
I don't disagree with what you said. I also believe that when you make a committment to marry someone, you do everything you possibly can to keep that marriage together. Having said that, I was in a marriage with a man who did not want to work on staying married. Heck, even after 4 years of divorce I dated him again for another year and a half. He played this "come here / get away" game with my feelings. That is very hurtful, and like Fearless said, it's cruel to do that to someone. I never once suggested that hanginin should leave her husband, but since HE's the one who can't seem to figure out whether or not he's happy, then HE needs to work through his thoughts and feelings. Counseling was already suggested and I agree that it's worth pursuing.
Now, the part I have a big problem with and why I said he was being selfish: At this point he seems to be concerned with only HIS happiness without thought as to what he is putting his wife through. He doesn't know if he's happy with her but doesn't know if he can live without her...that's called sitting on the fence, being wishy-washy and non-committal. Is he looking at what is in the best interest of his marriage or is he only concerned with how HE feels? Once you sign up for that marriage thing, it is supposed to be for better or for worse, not until I decide I am no longer happy with my spouse.
I also take hanginin's post seriously, but I can still call a spade a spade.
What you said
What you said to your DH sounded to me like you truly love him and care for his well-being. What he said to you sounds like he truly loves himself too and is at minimum, less concerned about your well being.
Maybe he is depressed and needs medication but I would still take him at his word like you are. I am tired of people saying they are depressed or sick, whatever, then doing mean stuff like you are supposed to excuse them. If someone loves you like your husband of 10+ years should, they don't treat you this way. If his feelings have changed, he needs to act on that and not keeping you hanging on.
"In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer." -Albert Camus
There is so much more than what's written in a single post
Please, I don't want any person to take what I say personally or be offended. I too go through my doubts and struggles, and I think we all respond to individual posts from our own personal experiences. So if I'm in a mode where I want to fight for my marriage, or I have done that successfully, I'll probably take that perspective. And if like Sasha, someone has gone through an emotionally hurtful experience, that person will respond based on her experience and pain.
So with that said, I wrote last night because I reread the posts and I seemed to be the only one who was seeing a couple who might work things out. Yes, what he said was hurtful. I acknowlege that. But even Hanginin talked about her doubts in this marriage. He was the first to acknowlege them. Personally, from what I've seen, people don't share their deepest feelings like those before it is too late. Usually, they start hurting eachother, begin fighting and do other hurtful things to force the other person to want out before they have to take responsibility for themselves.
Now I'm not really writing about hangingin because it isn't fair to her without knowing her own personal experience more deeply. However, I think this is a very thought provoking topic and worth discussing. It is helpful for me. So using her topic. My thought is that since he is talking, this is her time to talk to. He might have been thrown when she responded so supportively. Wow, when I have held thoughts in, then finally released them, and then was told to do what I wanted. My response would be fear about losing that person, if indeed I still loved them. So I think he shared his fears, and then once out, got scared because he does love her. Maybe he is wishy washy, maybe he is selfish, but these things we don't know from a post. Hangingin does though and based on the kind of support she is looking for, I think we can give it.
I've read some posts where this week they are leaving their husband, the next the husband is just grand. These extremes are confusing to me. But emotions are hard to explain. So that is all I am saying about hangingin's post. I caution telling her she should jump ship or give ultimatum's because as much as we are trying to help and share our experiences, for me, the feedback I get infuses into my perspective. If the resounding message says one thing, my next behavior will reflect that. So I'm not saying anyone is wrong with their responses. I would never say that. We are all different. I just was wondering why I stood alone in mine.
Kathleen
I love to hear your perspective, it always seems so gentle and kind and considering the other person. I too have a horror of divorce unless it is absolutely necessary and also second guess what I write here sometimes, given that we can't know everything about someone, only based on what we are told here.
When I look back at stuff I write, sometimes it says what I mean and sometimes it is all over the place, and doesn't say everything because it would be 10 pages long. You are not alone and we do need your kind of input! Thanks dear
"In the depths of winter I finally learned there was in me an invincible summer." -Albert Camus
conflicted & confused
Kathleen, I would have to agree with you it does sound like he is opening up ( how many times do we wish our DH would do that) and I have always believed if there is love there is always a way. hangin- if you still love him and he loves you then you two should not walk away from the marriage however if he continully disregards you and disrespects you then maybe leaving is the answer only if it is on a trial basis, he had a heart attack and like it was mentioned that makes a person reflective, keep communication open and good luck!
"Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without one."
First I want to Thank ALL of you,
for your kind and very thoughtful responses and support. THANK YOU!!!! After I posted, HB came back home, walked in the door,and said " forget what I said" I don't know what I was thinking! I can't live without you!! And I asked him again,"point blank" yes, but do you LOVE ME?!?! He could not answer that, only "I care for you VERY DEEPLY", please just give me some time to work through this! He HAS been going to counciling,to a very good therapist that has helped us in the past with the EX issues,SD issues ect... And he did ask me to go to a session with her, and I told him to set it up, I'll be there! So I go next Thursday! Yesterday was the day that we went to his first check up with his Cardiologist. I asked him if he still wanted me to go with him, he said yes, the Doctor said that he could not be more pleased with the outcome, his heart is acting as if it never had the attack! On the way there, we had a long talk about his "issues" I told him that I was already thinking along the lines of " Ok, this is what I have to do.. car, place to live, ect.." he laughed and said that is why I came back to the house, I know you would probably already have the truck sold and a place to live!! He said it scared him to death!!! I told him, that's me, I'm not going to stay where I'm not wanted. He even mentioned something about 20% child support going through his head,so I told him, no I don't want that, I want us to share everything, no CS, just taking care of our son together, even if we are apart. He does make more money than I do, so I would expect him to step up to the plate on that. The only thing I ask is that he help me get a start on my own. And yes, he is that good of a man, he is the best father I have EVER seen.I have no doubts about that, that is why I do not want child support, because I KNOW he will do the right thing. I have a trait that some call "putting the cart before the horse" I call it "protecting my ass" because I know no one else will do it! So, yes we will be going to counciling, but that does not mean I'm not thinking ahead! Above all else, I am going to protect " me and my son" I've even thought about his life insurance, I will insist that it be in the divorce degree that he keep me as beneficary! We also have a will, and I will also insist it stay basically the same, with a few minor changes.I explained to him the reasoning behind my not going with him to places, I laid it all out on the table. So he now knows where I'm coming from. He can do whatever he wants with that. But we are going to take a "wait a see" tactic. I really don't see it as him being cruel to me about his confused feelings. You have to know how he has lived his life to understand.Before he ever got married, "the love of his life" dumped him when she went off to college! So he married the first girl who showed him how to have fun! But it was all fake, as soon as she got that ring on her finger the fun stopped, he was preparing to leave when she delibrately got pregnant (yes, I know, it takes 2, but this one really know how to manipulate!!!!, you also have to know HER, she knew he would NEVER leave his kids)his son was a few months old when the "love of his life" walked back in and asked him to give her another chance (yes, she knew he had a new born)see, she was about to get married, but first she wanted to know if there was a chance with him, he told her it was too late! So she went off and married her "2nd choice" and he went on living in hell because he knew he could not leave his son with a Psycho Bitch! He became both mother & father to his kids (that's all he knows how to be) until she ran off and abandoned them. so, you see, I don't fault him for wanting to live his life for himself! When we married, I had a past,and loves, though never married.So I DO want him to be HAPPY! I am a child of divorce, so I know, that staying married "for the sake of the kids" never REALLY works. (it can IF you are civil to each other and LIKE each other, but not if you are arguing all the time, which we do not,but you don't fool the kids) Our son already knows something is "not right". So, for now I guess we will go to counciling and see where that will take us.He called just now, for me o look up something for him, and I asked him how he was feeling, he said better, I asked, about us? He said yeah, I guess! I said that right there just told me everything I need to know! He does not love me like a husband should!!! He got scared yesterday thinking about that child support payout, I'm betting!! I must have relieved his fears when I said I didn't want CS!!!
hangingin
Just a sidebar
you might consider.
You seem to be a "people pleaser". You want to make "him" happy. You consider your happiness 12th down in line and HE KNOWS IT. This relationship is about HIS kids, HIS house, HIS health, HIS happiness-------------HE is trying to take care of himself. You, on the other hand-----or let's call it the same hand because YOU ARE ALSO trying to keep HIM happy.
"that all I want is for him to be happy"
That this is a sweet, kind and loving gesture is wonderful but perhaps this posture is making you look "unattractive" or "needy"?? It definitely makes it look like you are willing to put up with 2nd booking.
So far YOU have given him a stacked deck. He has all the aces & you tell him it doesn't really matter if you win the game as long as he is "happy".
Put yourself first. That doesn't necessarily mean a divorce either. Whatever it means, YOU have to put your (and your son's) future stability (financial/emotional) AS TOP PRIORITY.
Hope something here can help.
Oh believe me
when I say I am going to put my son and myself first, I have thought about everything every one here has said, I am going to wait until we have our 1st session together next week, see how that goes, and go from there.Like I said before, I'm no dummy, I have been taking care of myself for a very long time before we got together, and I will continue to do so long after he is gone, one way or another. This house is going to be my son's house one day,I not only sold my house to help finance building this one, but I have put my blood, sweat & tears into raising his children. So yes, I DESERVE respect, compensation and financial assistance from him, I WILL be protecting us and our future, financially and emotionally. Financial Security is VERY important to me. And you are right, I can't "help him be happy", only he has that power, so I'm leaving that to him! You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! SO,I'm stepping back, letting him work out "HIS ISSUES" and going to go about my business. I have spoken to my sister who has also had open heart surgery a few years ago, and she did tell me that what he went through messes with your head, it is still messing with hers! But she dosen't have a 10 year old to think about anymore.
Wish me luck, on whatever happens!
hangingin
Spoken
like a true trooper!!!! I love to see strong and determined women!!!!
Gooood luck. Keep us posted.
I forgot to mention
that since HD told me of his "confusion", there have been little comments (and actions) made here and there that are making me feel just a little more resentful and "dare I say it?" (OH HELL YEAH!) ANGRY!!! he has not ONCE touched me,not even when opening doors, brushing by me ect... AND when I did ask him (before I decided to give him space) if he wanted to start working on "us" by going out on a date, ect.. He said no, he's not interested !?!? WTF! But, he wants me to go to counciling?? I have started a new mantra!! He's confused... give him time... yada,yada... But I have to confess, it's beginning to PISS me off! Today, our son is out with his brother & sister, they took him to a water park, he spent the night with big brother, they got up early to go have fun! (I envy them!)HD went to church, got home and has been on the couch ever since.He did get a phone call from a friend out of state just a few minutes ago,(I overheard him say something like, no, still the same, I'll keep you posted!) I think I'm going to get in the shower and then go visit some friends,without a word to him!! I'm now going into defensive, pissed off mode! Do you blame me????
hangingin
Something else I forgot to mention,
is that the Church he is now going to is the one where his family goes,(and yes, I do love his family) but the EX's family also are members! In case you are wondering why I don't go with him to Church... No, EX dosen't go,(but that dosen't mean she WON'T show up, just to suit her own purposes) just her VERY nosey grandmother,and SOMETIMES,(very rarely) her parents! There are ALWAYS people there who ask questions and are somehow connected with the EX!!! The congregation are of the "old school",they do not like change, they ran off the only pastor that I have ever liked (and who married us!)He is a take charge type of amn, who always thought about the future, "the old timers" did NOT LIKE THAT! So, I guess I lost ALL respect for the congregation and a long time ago told my HD I would not go to Church with a bunch of hipocrites!!!! PLUS, on top of that, I DO NOT like the new pastor, he gives me the creeps! I know I may sound weird, but my gut instincts have ALWAYS worked well for me!
hangingin
Something else I forgot to mention,
is that the Church he is now going to is the one where his family goes,(and yes, I do love his family) but the EX's family also are members! In case you are wondering why I don't go with him to Church... No, EX dosen't go,(but that dosen't mean she WON'T show up, just to suit her own purposes) just her VERY nosey grandmother,and SOMETIMES,(very rarely) her parents! There are ALWAYS people there who ask questions and are somehow connected with the EX!!! The congregation are of the "old school",they do not like change, they ran off the only pastor that I have ever liked (and who married us!)He is a take charge type of man, who always thought about the future, "the old timers" did NOT LIKE THAT! So, I guess I lost ALL respect for the congregation and a long time ago told my HD I would not go to Church with a bunch of hipocrites!!!! PLUS, on top of that, I DO NOT like the new pastor, he gives me the creeps! I know I may sound weird, but my gut instincts have ALWAYS worked well for me!
hangingin
A little update,
I did go to visit a friend, she has been a friend for 20 some years, as we all know sometimes life can get in the way of riendships... marriage, kids,earning a living ect...so I haven't been able to visit with her like when we both were single, no kids.... She is divorced,and has 2 girls (who by the way, are both wonderful, respectful young ladies)During our single days together,we have seen each other through tough times, breakups, HER DIVORCE, my boyfriend breakup issues, ect.... She got remarried, we lost touch (as if you could ever really lose touch in a small town) didn't run in the same social circles. She is now divorced again,the girls father passed away about 5 years ago (I was friends with both of them),so we caught up and I spilled my guts to her! I stayed at her house about 3 hours. Never once did DH call to see about me, My cell stayed silent!(I had grabbed my purse and left without a word to him, after finding out that he financed the trip to the water park !?!??, and here I thought it was really nice of SS & SD to invite their brother,when you invite someone 10 years old, shouldn't they pay the way?) She said, I can't believe he hasn't called you! She was shaking her head, I told her about his "not interested" reply he gave me. She told me that was just cruel! That I should go ahead and begin to work on myself,no matter what happens.She is aware of our history with Big Mamooo(EX)as her daughter went to school with SD, and has seen Mamooo in action! When I got home, the house was clean,dishes done, clothes in washer. He then asked me where I had been? I told him.. a friend's.
He didn't ask who,or anything. He actually asked me if there was anything wrong? I told HELL YEAH! Something's been wrong ever since you told me you don't know if you love me or not! He actually told me I should forget about what he said!!! I said, how can I?that's something you just DO NOT FORGET!!! and on top of that, you actually told me you have no interest in working on us as a couple?!?! I said, do you understand how big a slap in the face that was!?!? I just walked away! He never said he was sorry or anything! It seems to be getting worse,he's not being mean or anything, just saying things without regard or thought as to how his words hurt me, and acting like I should just act as if he were talking about the weather!
hangingin
Sorry to hear that, hangingin
But I do know how you feel. I always used to tell my ex-husband that actions speak louder than words. No matter how often he would tell me he loved me (which wasn't too often) if his actions didn't back it up, then the words were meaningless.
My mom and stepdad went through something similar years ago. My mom was pretty sure he was cheating on her again, although she couldn't prove it, she always knew by the way he acted. He told her pretty much the same thing...that he didn't love her, but that he cared about her. In my book, caring about someone is a lot different than loving someone. The only thing that kept my mom in that marriage so long was the fact that he worked away during the week. When he was home on weekends he spent his time in a chair reading and hardly interacted with the rest of the family. My mother finally left him a couple years ago. She said that she no longer feels all the tension she used to feel and is really feeling at peace with herself. Of course he says he still loves her but has done nothing, and I mean nothing, to show it. She has vowed that she will never go back to him and I don't blame her.
I don't know what to tell you that you don't already know, except to "hang in" there. You will figure out where to go from here.