Tigers don’t change their stripes
StepTalkers,
I really have had it dawn on me that our SKs are most likely already out the womb who they are. Research and experience implies such as well. Yes, the good old nature vs nurture. Both are important and contributory. Of course, certain circumstances and environments can further shape a person, but what differentiates the twin study where one twin grew up to become a millionaire, successful with a loving family, and the other an impoverished drug addict following in his father's footsteps.
After my experiences assisting raising and monitoring my SKs, one of them has made barely any progress. The other has made strides in many ways but not much personality wise. I understand kids are still developing and may come into their own later on, but by around age 10, I think most kids solidify who they are personality wise.
I had a lot of adversarial experiences growing up. I to this day am still generous, kind, loving, caring. It is who I am at my core. We are wired to be able to evolve and change with a little work, but I am still who I am.
I am convinced just some kids are born wrong and wired wrong. No amount of lecturing, yelling, kind platitudes, advice, support, kicking to the curb, you name it will help. Goes in one ear out the other. Some people are just wired to be self destructive and drag others down with them. Some people are just wired to think they're godly and worldly, and treat others around them like scum unless they are directly benefiting from them. Some people are just plain lazy and fine being hoarders despite education on why not to be and how to be hygienic. Some people just want to be miserable and find a scapegoat. Yes, EVEN KIDS!!!
My whole worldview has changed being a child free step figure. And I am sure the genetics with some of these family ties are not helpful. I read so many stories on here of hoarder/mentally unstable/trashy/foul/criminal bio-parents. Yes, again, some can be born into such negative circumstances but be better and do better. But some just don't see a reason to. They follow in the footsteps and are almost proud of themselves. They elicit a condescending mannerism. They think they're better than everyone. They think they know so much. They love being the perpetual victim.
This may be an unpopular opinion for the modern masses of "gentle parenting," (which, when applied in their poor taste, is just PERMISSIVE parenting) but I am convinced some people are born wanting to watch the world burn. And they should experience the natural consequences after a while. You want to be trashy? Go be trashy and see how far that gets you. You want to hang out with delinquents? Go on, but we aren't bailing you out when you get into trouble. You want to take from people mentally, physically, psychologically, and emotionally? People will eventually figure out who you are and normal people will weed themselves out of your life. The trash will linger of course.
I'm not advocating for neglect or ignorance. I am simply noticing that there are things far beyond our control, and we sometimes have to sadly back away, save ourselves and others who did no wrong and want no part of it, and let sh!t hit the fan for these lunatics. The other thing with these types of people.... they always end up alone in the end. They are so utterly insecure and jealous of what others have that they worked hard for, that they cannot stand to see it and have to insert themselves into it for likes but simultaneously degrade and hate the people attached to the wonderful things. They love to be apart of the action but are sore losers and will turn on you when you look the other way.
I say... LET THEM! People who reject help and do not care about their behavior impacting others should not continuously be a burden to others in any shape or form.
- greyskies's blog
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I agree that tigers generally
I agree that tigers generally don't change their stripes. I tend to think it's a mix of genetics/nature and nurture. I think the earlier years in a child's life are when they are so impressionable, so if a genetic predisposition to goodness exists, that can be drawn out further just as a genetic predisposition to being an ass can be fed.
I do know a number of people who had pretty horrific childhoods who ended up very kind adults, though.
When I think of my skids, I see they are today who they were 20 years ago, and I wish I had fully and permanently disengaged much earlier. I kept giving them chances because I felt they had been brainwashed by their mother. SS actually got worse as he got older. But in the big picture, they never changed, they never matured (as we thought they might) in the way of becoming independent of their toxic and punishing mother.
Agreed!
My DH is a living example of
My DH is a living example of nature/nurture. He was adopted as a newborn, but we met his bio family about six years ago. (He was born when his parents were 18, but they went on to get married and have two more children.)
Some of his personality traits like strong emotions, anger management issues -- all his bio family. Even his fear of heights.
But there are traits that are definitely more in line with the people who raised him.
You bring up interesting points and sometimes I look at SS14 and wonder how much of his entitlement, self-centeredness, lack of empathy and disregard for rules is built in and how much is the result of BM and her family's spoiling.
Kids
Like most naive parents, I thought I could mold my kids. I've found that the little people they were born - that's who they are now as adults, just more so all the time. So, the quiet, cuddly baby boy is now a calm, affectionate man. Nurture plays a role, of course, but the temperament they were born with - thats who they are.
DNA
Have a major impact on one's life. That a thing that can not be changed, maybe treated ? 2
I agree! 99.9% is how kids
I agree! 99.9% is how kids are hardwired. I feel parents blame other factors instead of accepting their children as they are (lazy, rude, entitled, no empathy, etc.). I am a teacher and have seen MANY kids with trauma. Some have become very resilisent and successful! The ones who are not play the blame game. Terrible Disney Dads and HCBM only contribute to their failed spawn.
Certainly the product of a shallow and polluted gene pool
Certainly the product of a shallow and polluted gene pool raised by its own members is likely cursed to replicate multi-generational failure.
Conversely, if a member of that clan is blessed with winning the parent lottery on the contra side to the stench of the performance cesspool, success is at least as likely as failure.
Though not a twin, my SS-32 is the eldest of 4 Spermidiot spawned half sibs by three different baby mamas and the only one not raised by the SpermGrandHag who raised their idiot SpermDad. His mom took full physical and legal custody at birth, as a teen mom, which was upheld when she filed a paternity suit against the Spermidiot before SS's 1st birthday. DW's full physical and legal custody was again upheld when DW defended an attempt to take custody by the SpermClan.
SS was raised in a strong marriage from 2yo with limited visitation with his SpermClan. There was no COd visitation prior to 2yo and visitation was long distance from age 2 to 18. At most visitation was 7wks per year (5wks summer, 1wk winter, 1wk spring). There were multiple periods of a year of more that they declined all visitation for some bullshit reason or another. For the entire 16yrs of the CO SS saw his Spermidiot no more than parts of half a dozen days a year. SpermGrandHag took the visitation though she had zero rights to have him at all. We never denied them their visitation but we also never allowed extra visitation until the final visitation before he turned 18. He called and asked to extend his 5wk summer visitation by 2wks so he could spend his 18th B-day with the SpermClan. Due to the dates they chose for the start of their 5wks of summer visitation to keep us from having July 4th they never had him on his late summer birthday. We agreed for him to stay until his birthday. To avoid the possibility that he would choose to not return home after his birthday, DW flew her brother to our city for a visit and so they could do a big sis/baby bro road trip back to SpermLand to pick SS up the day after his birthday. I flew in the day after his birthday so the three of us could have a short visit with my IL clan then a week long road trip back home. He graduated from HS at 17 and turned 18 2mos later.
He graduated HS with honors though not without some teen boy brain fart issues, scored top 2% on the ASVABs, and launched at 18 into viable adulthood 10mos after HS graduation when he reported for Basic Military Training. and is nearing his 14th service anniversary.
His mom, though a single teen mom at 16, graduated at 17 from HS with honors with him on her hip, moved out of state for University shortly after HS graduation with a 1yo on her hip. She focused on preparing to make a successful life for herself and her baby. She graduated with a dual major BS with honors, an MBA with honors, competed a top tier professional certification, and has a very successful and lucrative career.
SS is an only in our marriage, and is the eldest of 4 all out of wedlock by three different baby mamas in the Spermidiot branch of the SpermClan. SS is the only Spermidiot spawn not raised by the SpermGrandHag who along with SpermGrandPa raised the serial statutory rapist Spermidiot with a long arrest record, gang banger wannabe POS.
SS-32 is a man of honor and character who is as successful adult of standing in his life, his profession, and his community.
Spermidiot spawn #2 is on the dole, #3 is in prison (felony armed burglary though he also had a notable arrest record including gun violations as a teen), and #4 who is not far behind the inmate.
I would say that if there is not a clear structure of specific standards of behavior and standards of performance that kids that are victims of a shallow and polluted gene pool are for the most part cursed to follow the multi-generational bullshit of the shallow and polluted end of their gene pool. Which of their parents are the primary parent is integral to the outcome for these kids. Some of these kids, if not most, are not only cursed with at least of their family genetics being polluted, they are cursed to be raised primarily by one or more bio-parents who brings the stench of multi-generational failure focused genetics and family performance to play.
My SS had a clear comparison between quality adults and a quality family, and the opposite. his entire childhood. Fortunately he chose the bright path rather than the dark path for his life. Being raised with the facts, periodic age appropriate reviews of the CO, answers to his questions presented clearly non dramatically, and consistently. Ultimately he wrote them off. Though there was a terminal event that in some small way redeemed SpermGrandHag after 20 years of toxic bullshit and manipulation. When he was 22 SS asked for me to adopt him. We made that happen. When SS told her that he and asked and the adoption was final the Hag told him she was happy that he had been raised by a good man as his father. The Hag also told SS that my DW was the best person the Spermidiot had ever dated and that if all 4 of his children had also been my DW's that their lives would be so much better. After decades of manipulation, PASing, guilt, attempts to get SS to repay al of the CS that they were COd to provide for his, and then a final attempt to set up payroll direct deposit from SS's pay to the SpermGrandHag's accounts to help support the the three younger half sibs SS was done with them. Even though the Hag surprised SS with her comments about him being fortunate to have had a good family as he was growing up, that on top of all of her decades of haggy shit was the last straw and SS has had as close to zero contact with any of them as you can get without it being zero. The last of their crap is that they stalk my FB and when someone from SpermLand comments about us visiting my ILs the Hag and spawn #2 start blowing up with a full frontal guilt attack to get SS to visit them. Not one of them have every made an effort to visit SS. No visits, no calls on his birthdays, no cards on B-days or Christmas, or for graduations, etc... Nothing. So, he matches their effort which is zero.
Overcoming nature is a full time full frontal zero tolerance commitment that takes zero tolerance for crap and immediate confrontation of any crap from the toxic side. IMHO of course.
Sorry to hijack.
Agree with Dogmom1321
Dogmom1321:I agree! 99.9% is how kids are hardwired. I feel parents blame other factors instead of accepting their children as they are
What drove me nuts in StepHELL was how I always had to frame my complaints about the skids in a way that wouldn’t ruffle DH’s delicate feathers.
Take their good qualities—I had to make sure to credit those to his side of the family.
“Oh, they’re so smart/kind/talented? That must come from you, honey!”
But if I dared to mention their bad traits?
I had to blame those on their mother.
“Oh, that manipulative, entitled behavior? Clearly, that’s all BM’s doing.”
Like hell it was.
The truth?
These kids got their narcissism from both of their parents.
But I had to act like it was some one-sided genetic fluke just to keep the peace.
The Cruel God of Parental Alienation Syndrome has finally smiled upon this humble stepmother—
The skids are gone.
Gone.
Out of my life.
Hallelujah.
I'd pop a bottle of champagne if I hadn’t already used up my celebratory stash on the last time YSD abused and ghosted DH months ago.
It all matters.. Genetics,
It all matters.. Genetics, childhood experience. But, even when you have seemingly similar experience and genetics, kids can and do turn out differently. My YSD and OSD are different in a lot of ways. I do think that they both have tendencies from both their parents, and the older one probably felt more weight of her parent's split since she was older when it happened. The younger one basically grew up in the situation since it happened when she was very young.
Younger also had the benefit of "me" in the home and was more open to my influence.. and for that reason, I feel has turned out a bit "better" than her older sister.. with less of a "why me.. blame the world" attitude.. more of a I can be an independent woman who can stand on my own two feet..but can also be in a healthy relationship.
There also can be mental health issues that are both genetic and also rooted in the family dynamics at home.. and some of that is rooted in very young minds...
No doubt true. My SS and his three half sibs are just about the
No doubt true. My SS and his three half sibs are just about the full meal deal pallet of variables for both genetics and environmental assessment as they relate to outcome. The common denominator is that all 4 kids share Spermidiot genetics as 50% of their individual genetic make up.There are three different baby mamas. SS is the only one raised primarily independent of the SpermClan other than limited long distance visitation. The younger three all were raised primarily by SpermGrandHag and are all variations of nonviable adults. On the dole, or in prison, or on their way to prison. SS is 32, #2 is ~28, #3 is ~25, and #4 is ~24. The youngest two share the same gene pool entirely. #1 and #2 are of European extraction. #3 & #4 are biracial. Not sure how that impacts the nurture/nature thing but it is a notable variable.
Only SS was raised in what is other than his first 2yrs of life, an intact marriage and family. Only SS was raised by educated parents with cousins who are also the product of a long term marriage an educated parent.
Biomom 2 and 3 likely did not finish HS and were into fringe social networks including a motorcycle gang, street gangs, and bar fly aficionados. BioDad is a gang banger wannabe with a very long and distinguished arrest record and a long and sterling resume of underage statutory rape victim GFs. The only reason why he does not have a conviction record to match his arrest record is that SpermGrandHag intervened any time he Fd up bad enough to be pulled in front of a Juge. Her house/office cleaning business primarily serviced Judges and Lawyers in the surrounding community to where the Spermidiot was raised. She also attempted to intervene for her Spermidiot spawned GK#3 but his criminal behaviors have been completely beyond her ability to mitigate consequences for.
Sadly, SS's sibs entirely lost both sides of the parent lottery while SS resoundingly won the mom lottery. The younger 3 also resoundingly lost the nurture lottery. A kid that both fully lost the parent lottery and lost the nurture lottery has nearly no chance of high performance viable adulthood. Or even to be able to function at a basic level as an adult.
IMHO.
I am no sociologist of psychologist. But sociology is one of my many uncompleted college majors.