DH still annoyed that no one is connecting with his selectively quiet kids
This may be part of disengaging, but I'm not totally clear on the terminology. Nearly two years ago, I had a post here about the very odd, uncomfortable situation with DH & his twin daughters. I had begun resenting him for telling me I needed to 'try harder' to get his selectively mute daughters to bond with me. This came after I told him I was exhausted with trying and trying, only to get nowhere. For many years, it was like talking to a dead fish when talking to these children. Or they would talk to him in front of me and would ignore me. I grew emotionally sick of it. DH's own mother is even sick of it. SKs don't talk to DH's parents, DH's siblings, etc. DH believes that it just shows how little all of us have tried these past few years. I think this is more a reflection of something wrong with his children.
For reference, I have known them since they were very small. They are about 12 now. My family welcomed them with open arms, was super friendly, engaging, trying to get them to talk, etc. The girls used to not talk at all to anyone but their parents. Now, they do give bare minimum smile and nods occasionally, and sometimes one will give some answers, but it is like pulling teeth. They have been this way since the first day I met them. They chatter away on the phone with their friends at all hours of the evening, but they can't manage to talk to my family who takes them out on boat rides in the summer or sees them basically every holiday. It grinds my gears.
They aren't troublemakers, they are 'well-behaved' kids who literally only have to clean their room as a chore, but they are just not...well, they are hard to 'like', much less 'love', which is what DH is so upset about; that people don't love his children, because the 'adults aren't being adult enough to build a relationship'. Okay, it's been years, my dude.
To the point of this tale: my mother and I have back to back birthdays. I tried a month in advance to manuever the schedule so that SKs would not be with us that weekend. Couldn't get it done and DH didn't try hard enough to swap for a different weekend. He must not have understood what I was trying to do, but he got mad when he figured it out, which brought this all back to light (I think he literally likes to pretend that the problem doesn't exist and is always shocked when he finds out people aren't like...crazy about his kids).
My family likes to go to fancy restaurants, no one has kids but my husband. He was livid when I politely told him the time of my moms dinner and to make sure he fed the girls before we left. He was furious they weren't invited out to the fancy restaurant. I think he was also upset that I only wanted to go with him the next night for my fancy birthday dinner.
The reality is, my whole family knows his daughters will just sit there quietly and look sullen and depressed the entire dinner and won't talk to anyone. Which is a HUGE downer. It's just awkward. No one wants that vibe on their birthday and frankly, why would the girls want to go if no one is going to talk to them anymore? Everyone is exhausted trying with them. DH's mother didn't even socialize with them when we had a 4th of July party...that's just how spent everyone is at trying to get these kids to act like normal kids. I have kids younger than them chat me up at my barn all the time, I don't have to 'try'! It's unreal. DH just makes excuses that they are 'shy'.
DH has gotten even more upset because he's disappointed that I don't help him pick them up and ferry them around for all the activities BM puts them in. They live 35-45 min away from us. I have a full-time job and competivitely ride sport horses, I do not have time to take on his kids and this upsets him (and I don't effing care, I won't help, ain't my kids and they don't effing talk to me. I refuse to change my life any further for them). He's claiming 'I'm an adult and should try harder to understand them despite how quiet they are, that maybe trying harder will fix them'. I'm like, oh, like how it helps with your mother and mine? Two friendly women who keep trying and get nothing from them?
How can I help DH accept and understand that it is for my own health that I have emotionally disengaged from his children? That it won't change and that it isn't right for him to continue expecting it to change? I've had to live with them for 4 years now (knew them before that) and it hasn't improved. I don't have any interest in them. I don't scold them. I don't yell at them. Nothing. They are just strangers in my house that I tolerate. I mean, dinner is quiet aside from me and my husband talking. I usually leave the table and go do whatever I want to do, because I'm sick of the awkwardness (which upsets my husband, obviously, that I have things of more importance I'd rather be doing than attempting to 'bond').
I mean...do I need to take him to a family counselor or something? Do we need to go and just maybe have this exposed to a counselor? Do you think a counselor would recognize how unhealthy he's making our relationship? Am I really unreasonable for not trying anymore with these kids? Is my family really terrible for wanting to have birthday dinners with people who love and talk to them, not people who sit and sulk? It's just mind boggling that my husband expects everyone to be uncomfortable just for his kids, never mind that every day they are at our house is just awkward for me.
So what does HE do to
So what does HE do to facilitate the conversation when you talk to them and they don't answer?
As for taking them to an adult birthday dinner, who wants kids sitting there, bored to tears? Adults are allowed to have adult lives without dragging their children everywhere. If it's his birthday then fine, take the kids but for anyone else's birthday, he doesn't get to make that decision.
To answer your question, I think counseling would help but only if he's willing to actually listen and participate.
He has been (apparently)
He has been (apparently) telling them for years that not talking to other people makes people think they don't like them. As far as I can tell, they don't care. When I used to make them dinner and they liked something, they would tell him quietly after dinner, wouldn't tell me, and he'd say in front of me, 'go tell Ashley that' and they wouldn't. He wouldn't press the issue. He forces them to say hi and goodbye to me, but its just such an awkward thing, since that's been going on for years. Heck, I had to force them one year to hug HIS parents goodbye on Christmas, I was utterly appalled in my head that they weren't going to even hug their very kind biological grandparents goodbye. I was smiling when I told them to do it to appear 'unthreatening', but in my head I was shocked by the behavior.
Well, he always tells me I should go to therapy for my 'resentment about them' and the more I think about it, I'm like huh, maybe I should...and if they tell me I'm not the crazy one, I'll drag his butt in next!
They don't care that people
They don't care that people think they don't like them. Now, if he told them that not talking to other people makes people think they're stupid, he might have a better chance at a reaction.
Has he ever considered etiquette classes? They teach not only personal communation skills and good manners, but also self-respect and respect for others, motivation, making small talk, confidence an being able to cope in every day situations. Sell this to him as a way for his kids to have a head start in life. The idea is that maybe they're so uncomfortable in the outside world that they prefer mutism, so let's teach them how to BE comfortable in all situations.
The problem is the entire
The problem is the entire rest of the world. Sure, your DH is in fantasyland.
These kids are 12. Beyond old enough to carry on a conversation! Has your DH asked THEM why they don't talk to YOU, or their grandmother, or any other adult? Maybe HE needs to try harder to figure out what the actual problem is and HELP THEM through it. Pretty sure I'd lose it if I were the one being blamed.
Has DH asked BM if the girls have the same problem with her family?
I feel like that is a theme
I feel like that is a theme with many biological parents- 'everyone else is the problem, not my child'.
Yeah. 12 years old and still choose to not hold conversations with people they've known for years. The excuses he makes for them are unreal. He has asked and they just tell him the bullcrap answer that they are shy. He buys it, because they talk to him all the time.
I was thinking about that this morning, actually. I may ask him to ask BM if they are struggling to communicate with her family. If they aren't having an issue (and my family and his family are apparently very friendly compared to hers) then I'm just going to assume its some issue the kids have with us in particular, even though DH is their favorite and they apparently are very rude to BM. (thank goodness I don't get any of that attitude, they find me too intimidating or something, IDK, I never yell LOL).
No you are not being
No you are not being unreasonable.
You've tried for years to engage with them, with no response.
It's not your job to ferry them around. You have a full time job and your own interests. The kids have two bio parents whose job it is to parent them, take them places etc. Your H really needs to pull his head in, and get a grip on the fact that he and bio mum are responsible for the kids. Not you.
As for dinners and parties, I agree with Winterglow. If it's your husband's party yes he can invite them. But he can't invite them along to other people's functions. He isn't in charge of the guest list...
Selective mutism is an actual
Selective mutism is an actual anxiety disorder. These kids need therapy.
First, they need a diagnosis.
First, they need a diagnosis. I wonder if separating them would help? Twins sometimes feed off each other.
OMG I’m not the only one!
My SO's daughter (13) is EXACTLY like this. She doesn't speak, doesn really come out of her room and will only mumble to him if asked a direct question. But in her room she's shrieking with her friends (in person or on the phone). I've recently told him I won't live with him until she's left home because I'm not putting up with that every damned weekend. If you find the answer, let me know!
You are right. DH is wrong. More importantly, DH is an idiot.
Connection is not a one person effort. They have never tried. So, no one should try with them. Including you as their SM, and their ignored GPs, and the ignoried Aunts/Uncles.
Period. Dot.
Does your husband not realize
Does your husband not realize that his kids are NOT normal? Why hasn't he put them into therapy or otherwise tried to get them help? Contrary to what he thinks, you aren't doing anything wrong, but he is failing his children.
Had the same thing here. Still do.
My SD does not communicate with her father, her father's family nor with me (never has.) She is never rude but makes no effort to converse with me (or others) and does not even make eye contact. She will talk to her father when she is in his presence and I've found that those "conversations" are entirely one-sided about her, her job, her life, her annoyances, her her her. She never asks her father how he is, what he's been up to, not how other family members are or even the all-purpose how his job is going. Nothing.
IMO it is because she has been PASed by BM. (Parental Alienation Syndrome) BM has taught her that her father and his family and his life has no value. When you are taught this (both sublmininally and overtly) over your lifetime it changes who you are as a person. And that person will not change into a caring, involved nor attentive adult child. SD did this when she was a young teen and is now into her 30s and is still the same as she was almost two decades ago. (So, no, it is not a typical teen phase that they grow out of - it is a substantive part of their personality.)
This is the power of alienation, particularly from a mother. Sounds like this may be your situation. IF it is, just realize that you nor your husband nor his parents/family are a match for a mother who weaponizes her kids to ostracize others.
Compound that with a father who worships his little princess, accepts any scrap of attention thrown his way, cannot ever see fault with her, and you will find it is a battle you cannot ever win. I just went through this last evening, when my SO was talking about his nieces and nephews and their quirks/faults yet when he mentioned his daughter he had nothing but positive praise for her. I kept my mouth shut.
My advice is to stay disengaged and let your DH deal with his daughters. Keep your distance as much as possible, find any excuse to be away from them, and realize this situation is probably not ever going to change.
That was EXACTLY the
That was EXACTLY the situation with my ex SD. In fact I could have written your post.
This is a discipline issue.
This is a discipline issue. In my generation, not answering adults was not an option. I was a very shy kid, and would have acted this way if I was allowed to, but I was forced to learn manners. SDs do this because they are allowed to.
Killjoy used to do this. We'd be at a restaurant and she'd refuse to speak to the waitress. DH coddled her for a long time, but it became clear she enjoyed acting like a baby. He stopped ordering for her, she had to do it herself or I'd pick what she got. If it was counter service and she wanted dessert, he'd give her the money and she'd have to go up and get it, or no icecream.
She tried ignoring me when I spoke to her. I'd say "Hey! I asked you a question!"
Your SDs are just rude, and DH has been allowing it for too long.
"Soooooo, DH, why do you
"Soooooo, DH, why do you think that your kids are only rude and refuse to talk to me, your parents and the rest of your family?, C'mon, there has to be a reason. They're coming up to their teens and nothing has changed so it isn't something they're going to grow out of. So why us? And, moreover, why do you allow this rudeness - it makes you look like a bad parent."
My DH's daughters were
My DH's daughters were groomed by BM to not like me, to be mean to me, and to be mean to my family and DH's extended family. They acted just like your SD's. Could some of this be BM's doing?
These kids are mute
These stepkids aren't mute, they CAN TALK. They are just rude and spoiled. I wouldn't waste any more time on them. DH is in deep denial. My DH is also in denial about his kids having mental disorders. They are growing up without any idea that its not normal to have bipolar mood swings and crippling social anxiety. I flat out tell DH this and its the only time we fight. He refuses to do anything about it because they are so "fragile." I want to yell at him "Do you think they will kill themselves if they get a bipolar diagnosis? They are still depressed, they just have ZERO tools to deal with it because you won't acknowledge it!!!" Yeah, it is sooo frustrating!
LOL, these Disney Denial
LOL, these Disney Denial Parents crack me up. I was the opposite with YSD when she lived with us, because I understood our job was to prepare her for adulthood. I told YSD if she thought we were being tough on her, she was in for a very unpleasant surprise; that no one would be kinder to her than family, because in real life, most people won't stop to help if you're laying in the gutter; and that professors, bosses and boyfriends wouldn't be as accommodating as we were.
Yep, you described my YSD16.5
Yep, you described my YSD16.5. she's been this way since around age 10, won't talk with anyone and literally hides behind BM or DH if she sees someone coming (happened to a friend of mine who knows her). She can't say please, thank you, or even go into a store by herself. And we simply don't take her to restaurants.
And I blame the parents. When I pointed out that both SDs were not responding appropriately to other people when they were younger, there was no correction or working with them on it. It was the "they are just kids" excuse. It was aggravating and I just gave up, unless they were with me and damm well they acted correctly.
YSD is not normal at this point and has very little social skills at all.
Rude little shits are rude little shits.
While there should be an assessment of these rude little shits, I am not one to give much credibility to the syndrome of the moment to provide an excuse for rude little shit behavior.
Rude little shit behavior is rectified by boundary based parenting and invocation of escalating consequences for rude little shit behavior.
IMHO of course.
I'm right with you on the
I'm right with you on the rude little shits point. Being 'shy' is cute when kids are 2 or 3. If they can't even be bothered to try to converse by 12 and 15, that is just ill mannered and lazy. I bite my tongue these days. This might sound mean but I take satisfaction that the world will show them soon enough that you get out of life what you put into it. Sitting on their lazy asses all weekends/holiday with no friends, no social skills and no chores. I refuse to be brought down by their horrible rudeness and ignorance and distance myself at every opportunity. It's on them, they've been told plenty of times about manners and thoughtfulness. One day they'll both metaphorically get a slap from the real world. Can't say I'll be sorry.
Time to have that hard talk with DH
As yoir kids don't talk to anyone, They make normal people uncomfortable to be with them. We are going to X as my mothers Birthday dinner. No one wants your kids there. You are the parent, you are letting this happen. It's your problem to address.
Two, it's my birthday dinner. These are not my kids, I don't want to have them at my dinner. I want just my loving DH there. Alone. By ourselves. You lost your change at the Happy Family when you divorced your ex.
Stick to your guns.
Yeah. Lol. Your H thinks it
Yeah. Lol. Your H thinks it is everyone else's fault that his kids don't talk to them. He must realise that they are the common denominator!
But apparently he doesn't.
I know that when we were kids, if people spoke to us we were expected to reply. It's just manners. That's all.
What can they do to make a child more human?
My SO saw first hand how rude his D13 is on the weekend. They called into my house for a quick visit and she didn't talk to me AT ALL. Even when I asked if she wanted a drink, she just grunted. He said he was so embarrassed and is going to "work on it". But what exactly can he do - constantly tell her to talk to people, keep asking her direct questions to make her join a conversation, make her go out and just "be" near people? I have my doubts he'll actually do anything but I'd like to have some tips for him if he does try. In my head, I've given him a one month timeline to see if there are ANY changes or I'm out!
How about giving her
How about giving her consequences for her behaviour. If she can't talk to people normally when face-to-face then she doesn't need a phone, for instance...
I learned there is a word for this...
Toxic Passivity.
SD16 B/M will do this if I say anything to disagree with her, or if I say anything to upset her (like, no, you cant do xyz right now)
She hunches over, will either grunt or not answer, pouts really hard, and it is soooooo awkard. She did that a few weeks ago at an expensive dinner we went to for my birthday.
I would also label her a toxic victim.
People who are serial victims driving for sympathy.