Lies! Do I defend?
Hi there. Sorry I need help- the step kids mother constantly telling lies to the kids about me and their dad. E.g along the lines of "your dad doesn't want to see you" even though he always picks them up, tries to arrange extra time which she refuses. She only allows extra time if it suits her. She's a complete narcisstic- which one of the kids is really picking up some of these traits (that's a whole other issue!!)
she drives past our house with the kids to monitor what we are doing. The kids are sworn to secrecy- and often sent on little missions to get information about us to bring back to her.
my partner has had to block her email and can only contact her via text message as he received weekly 3 page essays about how much he lets the kids down etc.
One of the kids said "I just don't know who to trust. Mummy said you always break the court order and mummy is just doing what the judge said"
I don't believe they should even be aware of the conflict or know anything about any discussions between their mum and dad. But the mum tells them everything and lies etc- so what should we do? It's getting to the stage where I want to define ourselves- but what is the right thing to say? We can't say "your mum is a bloody liar/ narcisstic troll!" Because they are sort of brainwashed and obviously trust their mum. We never say anything- but their dad just tries and says "I love you" and gives them a hug.
Please help- it makes me so angry inside. I feel we have been doing the right thing keeping them out of conflict, but I feel is not saying anything or defending ourselves- we are just getting absolutely annihilated by her constantly. It's making the kids manipulative and not trusting of us. thanks everyone.
T Xx
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That is how alienation works
First off, you have every right to feel angry. You and your SO are doing the right thing, BM is emotionally abusing her kids and using them as spies/weapons.
Unfortunately, if you defend yourselves then you are the liars, because mummy doesn't lie and you're really just adding fuel to the fire. Your SO's approach of giving them a hug and telling them he loves them is the best approach. Don't bother arguing with children, it is absolutely pointless.
My general response when it's about me is, "I'm sorry someone told you that, that must make you feel really [confused/angry/upset]. It isn't true, I'm happy to see you and if you want to talk about it more let me know." DH has a similar line that includes, "I love you and will always love you". We are all human though and when this stuff comes out in the middle of skid screaming at me I have resorted to "Whoever told you that is a liar trying to manipulate you." That did not help the situation at all, but it felt good to say.
At any rate, they will be aware of the conflict, but should not be aware of specifics, they should only know that court orders allow them to spend time with mom and dad, if they are that interested and concerned over who is not following them, if they are spying, they are becoming enmeshed/alienated. The only thing you and your SO can do is be consistent for those kids and hope they eventually see through it. It sucks, it's a horrible situation to be in, and you are 100% entitled to be angry about it. For all I read about alienation, and even the stories on here, all you can do is be yourself, be consistent, and if it becomes too much, disengage from those children as much as you can. Save your sanity because no matter what you do they are going back to a parent who is going to continue the conflict and continue to hurt those kids emotionally, and these is nothing you can do about that.
Sorry if I sound like a complete Debby Downer. One thing I know is that you can only control the things that happen within your house and if what happens on the other side has greater influence, there's next to nothing you can do about it.
Thank you I really needed to
Thank you I really needed to hear that. It's just frustrating- because in my life before I got involved with my partner- I wouldn't tolerate anyone that is so mentally exhausting. Even when I'm at work I keep women at arms length because I find the whole gossip dynamic really wearing and I really don't want to be part of all of that. So now all of a sudden in this part of my life, I kind of have to sit down and shut up.
It just gives me anxiety! I run for the door when the postman drops off our post because I don't want the kids to know my second name! (Which I know is stupid- but their BM is friggin scary!)
it's also hard because my partner gets consumed by guilt- and seeing the kids manipulate him gives me so rage!
How old are they? Maybe it's
How old are they? Maybe it's time your SO took out the court order and went over it with his kids so they can tell him where he's breaking the order? IF they're old enough they should pick up on who is breaking the order. Like Rags often says - give them facts.
I say defend by showing them
I say defend by showing them proof that their mother lies.
"Mom says Dad breaks the court order."
"Well kiddo, he is the court order, let's read it together."
The fact that they're questioning who to believe means they likely don't feel like BM is totally telling the truth, but she speaks up often enough about something that it has to be truthful somehow. It's an alienation tactic, and it is a tactic used by cult leaders to sway their followers.
I think the comprehensive approach is for your DH to sit his kids down and show them proof to counter BM's lies. He shouldn't offer up more than what he needs to share the truth, so if the kids only know about the CO but not CS/CM/alimony, don't bring those things up. Parents shouldn't drag kids into their adult problems, but they do have a right and responsible to defend themselves against lies.
Then, your DH needs to have his attorney send BM a cease and desist letter, copying her attorney if she still has one, outlining the very specific lies that she has told the kids that the kids have relayed back to DH, and further lies on her part will result in further legal action against her.
Lastly, your DH needs to find a therapist to take the kids to, provided he has joint legal custody that allows him to do so. The therapist needs to specialize in parental alienation. The kids need a neutral third party to talk to about these things, because even with proof, it'll be hard for them to accept the truth.
Your DH addressing lies as he hears them is the best chance he has at fighting this. He needs to document EVERY lie in a journal, on video, with his attorney - any way he can. He needs to date when it happened, he needs to record what the lie was and his response, and his follow-up action with BM.
Yes, BM will lose her mind when he addresses this, but she's hedging her bets that he won't. It will get worse before it can get better, but it can't get better if your DH addresses the lies with silence.
This is a tough issue. In
This is a tough issue. In general, defending yourself just makes them dig in deeper. It's as if they are in a cult, and if you try to show them that their cult leader is wrong, they get more defensive and protective.
I think in some cases you can try to help them think critically, ie - "I'm sorry you guys thought dad doesn't care about you - he really does, he picks you up every time it's his turn to have you, right? Remember that time we (enter fun event)," etc.
Showing them the CO can get you in trouble in court, it's generally not looked upon favorably and really, it just puts them in a place of having to decide who to believe - and it will be mom if that's the place you put them in. And you can be sure she will pounce on you showing them the CO to further alienate them.
Alienation is hard to combat. Some kids fall for it easily and others do not. All you can really do is try to help them think critically, but that's a tough sell when their loyalty to BM is on the line.
I don't want to be Debbie
I don't want to be Debbie Downer but I have found at least in my experience you are damned it you and damned if you don't.
Trying to correct the alienation only causes you more stress and frustration and the outcome is the same. It's amazing how BMs can completely erase a child's memory of anything OP has done for them.
Even now SO and I are the only ones that have ever treated YSD with love and respect. But because BM is currently alienating her because she is the "scapegoat" YSD hates us and doesn't want to be here. She has been begging BM to fight for full custody of her.
YSD wants to go with BM where she is bullied by her siblings, verbally abused and punished by BM as well as emotionally abused.
According to YSD we are the ones who mistreat her.
I agree, it really is a no
I agree, it really is a no-win. I read every book I could on helping kids who are being alienated, had SS watch Welcome Back Pluto, and all we got for our troubles was BM and SS accusing US of trying to alienate him from BM. Either kids get it, or they don't. And if they don't get it when they are young, they might get it when they get into their mid-20s. Or they might never get it.
I think all you can do is protect yourself, do what's best for you, and not let it destroy you. Until our court system figures out how to deal with alienation better, this is going to continue to happen.
The don't involve the kids
The don't involve the kids point is mute. Mom has already done so. Do your best to combat the alienation with facts - I.E. - the court order, CS payments, etc. Then DH should do his best to reassure Skid they are loved by both parents, who see things differently and its not their concern. Unfortunately, the more reasonable parent usually loses this game simply because they refuse to hurt the child in order to get back at their ex.
I agree with going over the
I agree with going over the court order with them, esp. if they are old enough to understand what it is.
OSD was having fits about why 'DH left her BM' and after the fifth trantrum from her (13 at the time) he laid it allll out. BM kicked HIM out, she refused counselor, she refused mediator, she took all his retirement money and the SDs college funds, etc, etc. She was then mad at him still. But he needed to say it.
My sd’s now aged 26 & 15 and they cut off contact
With their dad for over 5 yrs over lies their mum made.
eventually they were told daddy met me (the cheistian caucasian whore) how they possibly couldn't be around us because we're evil bad examples of people- all lies
eldest sd picked up something was off and both sd's confronted their mum on the lies she made because evidence showed she lied, she claimed she was a born again religious woman and they bought it. Even told their dad on the day eldest sd messaged him after over 5 yrs mia that him divorcing their abusive narcissistic mum was the reason she became a psycho and lost it and fought with my husband and took them away & disappeared.
hubby told them to stop selfishly thinking about their mum only because they had no friggin clue what he put up with all these years. They guilted him for marrying me and having 2 kids with me, claimed us as the new family, they have continually been horrible people along with ss23.5 whom i have no contact with. I have not spoken or seen sd's in over 2 yrs and ss23.5 in over 1.5 yrs.
i refuse to subject myself to shit behaviour and abuse, invasion of my and my kids privacy, to have sd's do inappropriate things to my kids and answer me back. To report everything about us to bio mum and stepdad. Yeah no thanks!!
the day over 2 yrs ago i refused to participate with my kids in any event or function skids would be at was the best day of my life. They cannot report anything to their mum. Its hit my husband how lonely he is as we've been separated by international borders for almost 11 months how his skids do not care or love him. He is just an atm. All those years he made excuses for their behaviour and claimed they aren't bad people when they are, there is no loving type relationship and frankly I don't want to be around such toxic horrible people
This sounds exactly like BM.
This sounds exactly like BM. Sadly DH had to step back and ended up only seeing skids about once a year. His youngest kids are now 25 and 21. The 25 year old seems to be aware of BMs tactics to some extent but we have not seen or heard from sd21 in 18 mths. I suspect from some things sd21 has bipolar as does DH and ss45.
It is familial and can be traced back 5 generations. I do think sd21 would be better off having a relationship with DH and learning some coping skills but what can you do.
I have been there with the
I have been there with the skids bringing up outlandish incorrect facts about my personal life, education, career, age....clearly gathered from their moms lol
I just corrected it and they wouldnt believe me anyway. For the longest they believed that I was a teen/child bride when i was in my late 20s, no matter what I said and explained, they thought that i was lying about my age. So i just played in their lies...Skids say im a teen? Yes Im actually a toddler, im 4yo!! Skids say im dumb/dont have a diploma? You are right, i prob didnt complete high school just like ur mom! Skids say i dont have a job and im home all the time? Yes you are right, thats why im broke and cant afford anything so stop asking/expecting extras since I dont have a job (they dont see me going to work since they only come on the weekend)
Just say yes to everything and play in their games. No need to try to deny, it doesnt work with narcissists, you have to play dumb like they want to so they can get off ur back.
YSD moved in with us,
YSD moved in with us, unexpectedly, at fourteen. I had never met her, and DH hadn't seen her for six years due to an ugly custody battle. There was a CO, but BM had physically attacked the relatives who went to pick YSD up and continued to try to file false complaints against DH with her town's police department. DH had two other kids to support, and as a cop even false complaints could jeopardize his career. He made the difficult decision to drop the rope.
Along comes YSD, seeking asylum from the crazy but not knowing what was true anymore. After about a year, she started asking me questions. I led her to the office, pulled a stack of files, and put them on the desk. I told her that she was welcome to read through everything, and to ask all the questions she needed to.
Ultimately, YSD went to the Dark Side. But she knows her father loved and fought for her, and that her mother did a number of things that were morally, ethically, and legally wrong. What she does with that is up to her.
Trying to verbally refute your BM's lies would only ramp up the dysfunction. Sadly, she's raising her kids to be drama addicts, so the prognosis is bleak. All you can do is empathize, encourage them to think for themselves and ask questions, and try to be a safe place for them. Keep the lines of communication open: "Why do you think your mom said that, Skidly?" "I'm sorry, that must be very confusing for you. Have you asked Daddy to explain?" "That's grown up stuff between your mum and dad. You don't have to worry about it." "Daddy doesn't talk about your mom because he knows it's wrong to." I'm sorry, it must be hard to hear mean things about Daddy." It sounds like BM keeps life with her at an uncomfortably high frequency, so the best thing you and your DH can do is provide an environment that is the antithesis of that: calm, low key, quiet, dignified, measured, logical etc.