*UPDATE* SD (14) jealous of new baby
So I posted a few days ago about my 14 year old SD being jealous of the new baby because it is a girl. This issue has been going on for months now. My husband has been going crazy trying to make reassure her and spend one on one time with her, absolutely anything he can to salvage their relationship. I personally think SD has some mental health issues as well as BM being behind this. SD is using some very adult dialogue and some things BM has said to my husband years ago are the same things coming out of SD's mouth. So far things have gone from bad to worse.
My husband took her out for a one on one dinner and ice cream date once again, where she flipped out. She was initially excited when he picked her up and they had a good time. On the drive home she just flipped. She told him she wants him to call her more, buy more stuff for her, she wants to spend more time with him, etc. My husband calls several times a week but she never wants to talk to him she sits on the other line silent and tells him she is busy then hangs up on him. She has also told us multiple times not to contact her because she hates talking on the phone or has no privacy at home. Most of his calls and texts go completely ignored. We have always encouraged SD to stay an extra day or whatever she feels comfortable with to spend more time with the family. She always rudely declines or asks him to buy her something in exchange for extra time spent with us. My husband reminded her about all of this and all she could say is "you should try harder to get me to say yes or try harder to get me to want to talk to you". My husband is pretty much a groveling, doormat at this point I'm not sure how he could try any harder.
Fast forward to my husband's visitation this weekend. I hid all the baby stuff per his request. My husband was really excited and he started planning all this stuff to do with her this weekend. He calls to ask what time she would be ready to be picked up at and she just tore into him. She told him she hated him, wants him out of her life, it's too late/he should have tried harder, and just says some really awful,nasty things to him. She said they have never really had anything real to begin with and she has no connection with anyone in our family. She also said that now that we are having a girl it's really the end of things. She doesn't feel that she can go on being in our family now that she isn't the only girl. My husband is heartbroken and devastated. While I am furious and borderline hate this child for the horrible things she has said to him, the family, and all of her disgusting behavior. My husband is an amazing dad, he does parent out of guilt sometimes but he has always been there 100% for his kids.
What should my husband do now? He basically begged her not to cut him out and she just said too bad he has no one to blame but himself. Should he force her to come or let her decide her own visitation? He's afraid that if he doesn't push to see her and force her to come her and BM will use it against him and further blame him for abandoning her since SD keeps saying he needed to try harder. He also doesn't want to give up on his child and live life without her. If he does force her he is scared she will really go off the rails and make the household really hostile. On top of being due to give birth soon we have 3 little boys that do not understand this and I'm worried if she comes she will take it out on them. None of this makes sense my husband has always been involved every practice, conference, school performance, game, weekend long tournaments, and spends ton of one on one time with her. Now suddenly he has never been there for her, yet in the same conversation SD will say he's always around and she wants him gone and no longer involved? She literally flip flops mid sentence on this. After all the rough years I am more inclined to just let her go and give up on her being involved in our family. How should he approach this though? Fight and push or just let her go?
Your husband needs to find a
Your husband needs to find a counselor that will enable him to see the manipulation and that giving in to it only makes it worse. SD is not the only girl at BM's house. She has managed to live there. Her attitude is pure manipulation.
DH needs to realize that if he continues to acquiesce to SD he is risking his current marriage and his relationship with his children with you. Is he planning to dismantle the baby's room every time SD visits after the birth? Where does he plan to keep the baby when SD deigns to visit?
I'm going to bring this up
I'm going to bring this up and see if I can get him to see a therapist. This is clearly manipulation and she completely turned this situation around on him, blaming him for her issues.
Your DH needs counseling so
Your DH needs counseling so he can see clearly.
I would want none of that drama around if I were pregnant. She doesn't like not being the only girl? Fine. Your DD can be the only girl
She is trying to manipulate
She is trying to manipulate him. He should not just give up on her, but he should not chase her, either. He can call her, text her that he is thinking about her, that he loves her, that he would like to see her, etc., but he should not give in to any demands, such as buying her things or doing her bidding. He is the parent, she is the child, she does NOT call the shots.
My SD once also told my DH that he should have tried harder, that he should not have let her go so easy, blah, blah, blah. None of it was easy, she and her mother made it an impossible situation. A person can only do and take so much, even when it comes to their own child.
She is being unreasonable and he should not encourage that behavior.
Did your SD eventually
Did your SD eventually straighten up and come around or how did their relationship end up being after that?
My SD and her BM have a very
My SD and her BM have a very co-dependent relationship, so she has never really completely come around, she still has resentment towards DH. They talk on the phone but it is a very superficial relationship and she does still try to manipulate him, at times. She is very immature, at 28, and makes bad decisions, so she and DH don't see eye to eye on a lot of things.
My DH never parented out of guilt, even when he felt guilty, but let me tell ya, after all of these years, trying to put a guilt trip on him just pisses him off.
My SD stopped coming over for visitation for good when she was 16. DH refused to buy her so that was that. She did call him a lot back then, so did not completely ignore him. But in those next couple of years, there were a lot of lies and manipulation tactics that BM was behind, and I believe it did a lot of the damage to DH's and SD's relationship.
If she could have gotten out from under BM's thumb, things might be different.
Exactly how it is for my SS.
Exactly how it is for my SS. He now speaks to DH but he's so enmeshed with BM and I'm sure he still half-believes all the rotten things BM has told him about DH. They have a very superficial relationship with DH doing most of the work.
My sd’s cut off ocntact with their dad for 5+ years
At age 7 & 17. They one day message my husband claiming bio mum was a changed woman and instructed them to re-establish contact with daddy..
the reality was that their narcissistic pd hcgubm was fuming that since she made the daughters end contact with daddy, several yrs later claiming daddy abandoned them to marry me, the reality was bio mum was so used to my husband jumping through hoops for them except now he had a wife and 2 young kids with me and we are all pleasant to be around, unlike skids.
they sure as hell guilted him for marrying me and having 2 new kids, calling us his new family repeatedly. Hubby reminded them that we were just as much hubbys famiky as they were and they expected he be feigning, fawning over them and dropping everything and jumping through hoops for them. Imagine the shock when that didn’t happen??
what is the result now? They do no contact for months until they need favours or to maintain daddys monthly allowance
Well that's already how it
Well that's already how it kind of is. She only calls if she wants something, usually to skip out on visitation or she wants to go shopping/ somewhere. My husband pays a ton in child support and he isn't giving allowances because he pays so much already. He quit sending her giftcards and birthday money home because she would say I don't need this chump change I have (insert some very high amount) and then brag about how she just lets her mom have it. She doesn't just manipulate my husband she manipulates her grandparents, aunts, and uncle's out of their own money so she racks up quite a bit. It's like some weird thing she gets satisfaction from. So basically any giftcards or monetary gifts she receives stays here with us so we know she is using it on herself.
You will find behaviour like this is encouraged by the bio mum
In my husband’s case, the exwife has coaxed and manipulated the girls that this is normal and same as heir stepdad.
My eldest sd who has had a fulltime job since 1.5 yrs ago still every year reminds daddy to continue paying an allowance despite having a salary of $2500 and living rent free in daddy’s home.
Anytime my husband suggests a meet out with skids, i remind him how hard it is for me to see them favourable because he has 2 lazy adult skids freeloading off of him and thats prevented him being able to retire esrly as he originally intended and be an active dad to our kids. I reminded my husband that our kids will see their elder half dinlings bleeding daddy dry and daddy working his arse off fot their laziness and they will resent that.
i stay out of it now and focus on my university studies as i will finish end of next year and review things then
your sd is a real piece of work!! She doesn’t apprecia Daddy, has no respect for him and he is falling into her guilt trapping and it’ll never end. Its really hard for men like him to break free even when they know their kids are wrong
Just how much power over his
Just how much power over his life is he willing to give over to SD ? If she wins this round , who is next in the chopping block? Her brothers? After that will she insist on a divorce for him?
He's running scared now , unfortunately he has lost his mind. This has BM written all over it. I had a SD very much like like this and gave my DH the ultimatum that if he didn't get rid of me he wouldn't walk her down the aisle. She was 15 at the time and no sight of a fiancee in sight. ( definitely from BM) Needless to say he chose me and SD went her way. It took him therapy with a wise old man who had been thru it with his own daughter to put it all together in his head/heart. Taught by their mothers, they only saw dad as someone to fleece and use. No love involved. My BM has the same experience being alienated from her dad by her mother. She knows no different.
The bosses lesson my DH learned in therapy that took time to assimilate into his heart and thinking was to love the ones your with. He can still love SD but from afar so her toxicity doesn't ruin your lives.
OP, you are going to have to put some rules/boundaries in place to keep your home under your control and not SD/BM's control. Make sure his chasing isn't putting the family in financial troubles. Keep her away until she can behave like a member of the family. DH can see her outside and give him a budget for these expenses. Maybe cash only and take his cards if he can't discipline himself.
BM will throw a fit but put her in ignore. There is no pleasing this type and she is not unique. Many of us around here have been thru this exact scenario. It's best to drop the rope and give them what they are asking for.
Tell your DH for me that he is a person worth more than what his daughter is giving him. He and you deserve to be treated like human beings, not to be used for materials things.
^^This^^
Every word.
Your SO could insist on counseling, but with BM dripping poison into his daughter's ear, it likely won't help.
He should draw a boundary with love. He can tell his daughter that he loves her and always will, but the way she's treating him is not okay; that he is a dad, not a wallet, and her behavior is hurtful; that he already gives her mom plenty of money for half of her expenses; and that he'll always be available when she want to have a healthy father/daughter relationship. Then, he leaves it up to her. He can send a card and gift for birthdays, Christmas, etc, but he should not chase her.
She is 14. She does what she
She is 14. She does what she is told. Your DH is his own biggest problem. He needs to quit tolerating her crap and catering to her manipulative toxic juvenile manipulation.
That's what we are stuck on.
That's what we are stuck on. Should he force her and tell her tough you're coming this weekend and possibly risk some unhinged behavior or something worse? Or should he just say hey I love you come when you are ready to behave correctly? I see letting her decide as letting her call the shots and keep this act up. Then again I also see forcing her to come would cause a bigger issue or push her further into some dark mental state.
Dark mental state my butt!
Dark mental state my butt! Don't cater to the what if. Enforce the visitation schedule and enforce the standards of behavior set for your home and family. Be clear. She will comply with dad's COd visitation time and she will behave. If she chooses not to behave she chooses the consequence of her poor choice.
Keep it simple.
All IMHO of course.
Should he drag her to the car
Should he drag her to the car, or hit her over the head to knock her out and then just carry her?
Nope, just make noncompliance
Nope, just make noncompliance so unpleasant that failure to comply is so unpleasant and embarrassing that it just won't happen.
Starting with contempt motion filing against BM every time they fail to comply with the CO.
What solution do you propose?
Duplicate
Duplicate
And your solutions?
And your solutions?
You think a solution means
You think a solution means "how do I force SD to visit and BM to follow the CO". That's not a solution in the case of parental alienation. The more you force, fight and file, the worse the situation will get and the more you will damage your relationship with SD.
And in real court, they don't drop the hammer on BM for the child missing ONE visit. That would make the father look rigid and inflexible. And if he dragged her to the car and then made SD's life hell all weekend for daring to defy him, that would give BM all kinds of evidence for why she doesn't want to visit and his time with her should be decreased. BM would file petition after petition, taking years, lots of money, and causing stress and damage to everyone.
The real question is "how do I handle this situation without making my relationship with SD worse, but while also protecting my own mental health and that of my wife." See below for how we handled that situation. No, DH didn't get the "satisfaction" of making BM pay or forcing SS to comply but he kept his marriage and his sanity, and his son did return eventually.
I'm glad your DH found
I'm glad your DH found something that worked for him.
I am not in favor of hitting
I am not in favor of hitting children, but in this case, this little brat NEEDS a good old-fashioned spanking, in FACT it is WAYYYY overdue. I cannot believe your DH has allowed her behavior to come this far!!!! I understand some parents will do sh*t out of guilt, but to allow this from a 14 year old??? Ridiculous. She will be doing you all a favor by leaving you the hell alone. My inner Latina-mom side wants to come out and smack this girl with a chancla through the screen, just by reading this!!
ROFL @ the mental picture.
ROFL @ the mental picture.
(No subject)
Latina momma as well and
Latina momma as well and sometimes I think she would be better behaved if she had been!
This is textbook parental
This is textbook parental alienation. I don't know how he can "make her" come over, but yes, he should show up to get her as planned and see what happens.
There are those who will tell you to go to court and spend your retirement savings fighting her refusal to visit, but those of us with experience in alienation know this doesn't work. The court knows too that you can't really make teenagers do anything and it's easy for BM to make herself look like she's encouraging SD to go and she won't go. So court, most likely, would be a huge stress and a waste of time and money. Also, there will be people who say to beat her and make her behave, but unless you want to enjoy a CPS visit during your pregnancy, I wouldn't do that either.
When my SS stopped coming over, DH stayed in touch, texting him here and there, letting him know the door was open and he could come back in our lives anytime. He didn't beg, or grovel or try to force him or buy him. And here's the key - we learned to survive and even thrive. Our lives got better without the constant stress of SS being alienated and the endless fighting with BM. DH was able to let it go and move on. SS returned to our lives 3.5 years after he was alienated.
I do agree that a therapist with experience in parental alienation (for DH), might be helpful. Fighting and trying to force her, or going to court, will likely increase the alienation. Groveling sets up a dynamic where she will use your DH financially forever.
This stuff is all very hard.
If you and DH were a
If you and DH were a childless couple and all you had to deal with was SD14's behaviour then you'd actually have a real decision on whether or not to stay involved. But you've got young bios who need to be protected from this toxicity. This behaviour is exactly the sort of thing my DH's daughter did. And with BM egging her on in the backgroud it doesn't stop when they reach adulthood. Not the dynamic you'd want your boys and girl to see and think is ok.
And this is another reason
And this is another reason not to "force" SD to come over or fight endlessly in court. Her bios are better off not being exposed to an alienated child who has been forced into their home.
I agree with tog that this
I agree with tog that this sounds like classic alienation. BM is probably telling her that now that your DH will have another girl who won't love her any more and he doesn't put in enough time or spend enough money on her.
I also agree with the counselor idea. Your DH could go on his own, but he might also consider going to a session or two with his child.
One child is partially alienated from DH. He stopped wanting to come to our home, didn't want to do things with DH that he previously enjoyed, and was regularly upset about things that should have been non-issues. In her zeal to make DH look like a terrible father, BM demanded that he go to counseling with this child. I think her assumption was that the counselor would tell DH that he was a terrible person and SSs time should be reduced. Instead DH cried and told SS that he loved him and didn't want to lose him, so he wouldn't fight to force him to come to our home. SS cried and told DH "I talk to my mom about my relationship with you all the time and she says it's bad." The counselor pointed out to him that it didn't seem like he had a bad relationship with DH and he was lucky to have a father who clearly loved him. BM stopped counseling shortly after that, but as soon as DH made it clear that he wouldn't force SS to come to our home, BM then started forcing SS to come to our home. All that is to say that there is a large chance that this is actually coming from BM and not the child.
I think pandering to your SD is not the answer. Your DH may have to let her go and hope she comes back, but trying to jump through the hoops that she (and more likely BM) is setting for him will be a losing battle. This is about power and control and she has the upper hand because she knows that he wants to see her.
Did the counselor talk more
Did the counselor talk more about parental alienation? Is there anything you can actually do about it? I think he's slowly coming to this realization that he may lose her for awhile and just wait to see if she comes back.
DH had a private session with
DH had a private session with the counselor and he told her he felt like he was losing his child and shared his background with BM (BM was mentally abusive for their entire marriage and has "borderline" tendencies).
The counselor didn't want to get involved in that, but told DH her role was to help SS think independently and reach his own conclusions. She gave DH a few strategies for interacting with DH, but she wasn't serving as DH's counselor.
The thing that helped my DH is that SS still wanted a relationship with DH and still liked him, but was acting out because he thought he needed to to defend / protect BM. Even when SS was really young, BM would complain that he was never defending her to DH, so he had been getting that message for a while.
Full alienation is difficult to overcome, because usually the child doesn't really understand what is going on, so doesn't realize there could be another way forward.
I think for your DH it might help him to work with a counselor who helps him to work through these issues first, before seeing a counselor with the child. Also, he can't force the child to go to a counselor and BM would have to agree that she go.
Oh okay thank you for your
Oh okay thank you for your reply and info. Yeah I'm leaning more towards this being full alienation because it's been ongoing for several years my husband just kept trying to push through. SD hasn't wanted a relationship with him or our family for a while and was very vocal about it to everyone but DH until now. She is currently in counseling but my husband can't get a lot of info on it because BM controls it all. She's blaming my husband for not being with SD physically everyday(she barely lets him have his CO visitation, mind you) and traumatizing SD by having a new baby without taking her into consideration.