Experience of depression anyone?
Having a sleepless night so putting some thougts down for anyone to comment on:
The counselling didn't go well today- I posted about this earlier so don't want to repeat myself but I am beginning to wonder if The Ostrich may, in fact, be clinically depressed.
He was emphatic again today that he wanted to leave. I told him we should give it a week before we make any decisions but I'm now wondering if, being obsessed with my own thoughts and feelings on this, that I am missing what may be some signals that I should have noticed. My friend, who thinks a lot of The Ostrich, seems to think he's having some sort of mental health crisis and I'm starting to think the same.
I know it isn't me that is crazy (does that make me crazy lol?) but I keep thinking about what he said today about his kids. He said that they don't talk about me, at all, and never have. I found that odd and I'm still unsure of whether to believe him, but if it is true it tells me a few things:
1 That it means that they are just getting on with their own lives- that myself and The Ostrich really don't loom that large in their scheme of things. I said this to him as proof that disengagement has worked and that his kids aren't bothered about me at all, which I see as a positive thing.
2 Now I think that maybe they don't really care that much about him either- when I told him I could pick up the phone and invite them over for dinner he didn't respond- and I think that is because he knows that they are not bothered about coming here anyway and never have been.
3 He can't really face that his kids don't care so he's making me out to be the one to blame.
4 He wants a 'responsible adult' (something he said to the counsellor) I think there was more in that remark than I first thought. I think he really is floundering and maybe I should step up and tell him to get some help.
5 His inabilty to think anything through- it's like his thought processes are blank. When I asked him how he starts off the process of separating he couldn't answer me.
6 He says he wants to be on his own- this worries me more because he is really quite a sociable person.
7 He can't make any plans around his retirement- which is now less than three months away.
8 I feel I have been so caught up in my own self that I really have missed these signals.
I have even thought of getting in touch with his kids to see if they have noticed these things? However, I think in all this time they haven't contacted me with any concerns so I think I may leave that one untouched.
I know that he will get up and go to work in the morning as he always does- I used to think that meant he wasn't depressed, but now I think it may be the only place he feels wanted.
There were some other things he said that were a bit odd too.
Although I have put all these things in place to protect myself I now think he is far more vulnerable than I am.
Anyone with experience of depression? I would welcome any insights.
How does he feel about retirement?
Many man have their identity wrapped up in their work. Is he looking forward to retirement, or is it making him feel old? It sounds like he may be depressed, maybe because he is facing getting older. The problem is trying to get him to admit that he might be depressed. Again, many men having a problem admitting any type of psychological problem.
Depressed people do often want to be alone and can't find much joy in anything. That sounds like him.
If you feel like you want to try to help him, I think you should go to another therapy session and bring it up there. If the therapist thinks the same as you, he may listen to her.
I would not contact the skids. They would turn your concerns around and blame the situation on you.
He refuses to discuss his
He refuses to discuss his retirement plans and this has been a real contention between us- hence the nickname. I think it is hard for him to let go of being the 'provider' and maybe this is something that will come up in counselling too so yes, there may be a sesnse in leaving it for the next session. He is particularly joyless and didn't used to be- that's another thing that has crept up on us I think.
I agree, contacting the skids is a no no- they would just say everything is fine because to do anything else would show they care, which I am now pretty sure they don't. This the sort of damaged people they are, which led to SS nearly killing himself a year ago.
I think the best thing is to keep calm and wait for Monday, unless he does or says anything else. I'm just really tired.
What would happen if you
What would happen if you asked him out for a date? Maybe a nice dinner or something. Something his old self would enjoy.
We have been doing this for a
We have been doing this for a month or so- having a nice meal out at the weekends, always my idea. The counsellor told us yesterday to go out for a meal together. I said we've done that. He said- we just go and eat, it's just eating because we don't have anything in so we go out to eat. I said I didn't see it that way... His old self would never have said that.
Does he really want to retire?
Or does he have to? It may feel totally overwhelming for him to feel that he's at the end of his productive life - not that I'm suggesting that retirement means that a person is no longer productive! My partner has just hit 60 and would ordinarily have retired by now in her profession but doesn't want and in the UK the retirement age keeps getting put back so she's happy with that but still not happy turning 60!! Is he sleeping too much or too little? Is her eating properly? Drinking too much alcohol? Those are also indicators of depression amongst other things. I suffered from depression for many years until I found the right combination of medication and talking therapy to get on the road to healing - took a while but I'm there now. It's a wicked illness that skews ones thought processes and leaves you in a very dark place with no apparent light at the end. Is there any way you can get him to see his doctor? It really is so difficult to be the partner of someone who is suffering from depression - you must also take care of you.
Thanks- I can accept that he
Thanks- I can accept that he may not want to retire but when I first met him he had plans to travel. I just turned 60 and I am still working, but only part time- I can work as long and as much as I like- but he still works full time, eleven hour days and doesn't take any holidays. It is madness as he works for himself, more or less. His sleep pattern seems fine, but he over eats and does drink, but not too much. I've cut down and that's had a knock-on effect with him. I think this is why it didn't strike me as depression, as he still gets up and goes to work on time.
He seemed to be making plans for his leisure time- for example he converted the garage into a hobby room but hasn't even been in there since it was finished- he bought a boat but that was a disaster too. Now he just works and won't talk.
I do think his thought processes are adrift, when he does talk it is either to have a go at me, which I find hard, or to speak of how leaving is his only option. I think he is a very dark place and that makes me anxious too- the only thing is knowing the counselling may help.
I have just been to the doctor for blood tests and can't get an appointment for three weeks, so going to see the doctor is not for the short term, even if he agreed to it.
I feel like I'm taking care of both of us just now! Double draining!
The most positive
thing which strikes me is that he appeared to readily agree to go for counselling and continues to go with you - as it would seem from what you wrote that he opened up about some of his thoughts. I can only go from my own experience in that although medication helped to an extent it was the CBT that proved really effective (I had years of other ineffective talking therapies before). It's going to be different for everyone but the fact that he continues to go is certainly a positive thing. Question is - is it positive for you? Do you think he would go on his own to try to sort his feelings out? You can't help him if he can't or won't help himself - however, if he is depressed he possibly won't have the insight to recognise the changes in himself or that some of his thoughts are irrational. Would a period of separation help do you think? My partner and I split for 6 months after a year of our relationship due to me being an irrational, depressed arsehole!! That was over 10 years ago - we won't split now but that's only because I got myself sorted out. I wish you and your DH all the best in such troubled times.
Yes, I need to see these
Yes, I need to see these positives and I hope we can contunue to talk in a way we really haven't before. He reaaly is a very damaged person and of course, I just thought I could make him happy. His issues go back a long way and are very complex and beyond my experience really.
We talked about a trial separation. He said what go to a hotel? I said, yes. He didn't even seem to know how to do that. We have lots of cheap hotels down the road- but underneath I don't think it is what he wants.
I have enough money of my own to live on but don't want to pay hotel fees when it isn't me that wants to go. Friends have offered me rooms but that wouldn't work either as they have issues of their own.
I think for now we just need to keep the lines of communication open- I just sent him a text which I rarely do and he replied-so that was a positive. If we can talk without making things worse until the counselling next week we'll be ok. Just take it one day at a time. Thanks for your kind words.
I have suffered depression in
I have suffered depression in the past, and a couple of things you said about DH - it sounded like he might be, but honestly, even if he is, it's not your responsibility to sort it. Traditionally a lot of men won't go to the doctor until and unless their womenfolk send them, but I feel that it's up to him as a "responsible adult" to take care of his own mental health, if care needs to be taken. The most I think I would do in the circumstances, would be to say to him that a few of the things he has said and done lately, have suggested to you that he might have a degree of depression, and it might be an idea to talk to someone about it.
You are so right-we need to
You are so right-we need to treat each other as adults. This is just what I was thinking of doing this evening... the last thing I need to do is treat him like a child...
I know from my own DH and
I know from my own DH and others that retirement is the end of an era for men. Like a woman's menopause that we might have mixed feelings about, men feel that way about their retirement. A big important part of theirs lives is over. A man's ego is wrapped around being productive and successful.
When I stopped working, I could have stood on the kitchen table and yelled "yippeeeeeeeee!" My DH sulked about it for a few years, did some consulting, which at first kept him busy, then his hours slowed dwindled until his happiness about retirement matched mine. I kept asking him "is your job all you are?" and listed all the other great things about him I saw. He finally got there.
Men also need to be respected and admired. The fact that your DH is retiring, coupled with the fact his kids don't seem to admire him or make a reciprocal effort, may definitely mean he is having some depression issues.
Like Kes above, you may be concerned about his depression, but do not take it upon yourself as your problem to solve. You need to consider how your life is being affected as well; he has not been receptive to your efforts in the past to improve the situation. You cannot beat your head against a wall solving someone else's problem they do not want to solve.
A comment about the skids not talking about you....they don't have to talk ABOUT you to for there to be a problem. The important thing is how you feel in their presence. My skids knew they would look bad if they complained to their dad about me. So they just stuck the knife in my back instead when he wasn't watching.
This too! I am not depressed
This too! I am not depressed but yesterday the focus was turned on myself and I felt I had to justify everything- but really the problem lies with him. He has to face up to it. I really don't think the skids are that much of an issue for me anymore- I really don't care what they do or say and the sooner he accepts this instead of trying to fight it the better. Like him, his family are not talkers- they are a family of Ostriches which is why SS almost killed himself last year. They don't want anything to do with me either, which he finds hard to accept. I'm sorry that they are likethey are but it can't be mended by me.
I'm taking it a day at a time- I'm going to take Kes' advice and express my observations and concerns-then step away.
I wish it were that simple-
I wish it were that simple- we talked a bit more tonight but not too much. I'm finding it very wearing and tomorrow I'll be out doing 'me' stuff. I''ve been reading a bit about supporting people with depression- I think the idea is to be supportive but not heavy. It is nice to have a quiet evening without having to tear myself apart. He certainly isn't behaving like a man who wants to leave, despite what he says...
I hate to trumpet gender
I hate to trumpet gender stereotypes, but women need to feel cherished in a relationship and men need to feel admired. I wonder if he feels like a failure as a parent, and is ashamed that you know his secret. But you married him for a reason, and I am sure he has other fine qualities.
My DH has naricissitic tendancies. I have a huge amount of influence with my DH, and I can tell you what I do. I make sure he knows I appreciate him. Gratitude comes naturally to me, but I lay it on a bit thick with him. If we fix a meal together, and he grills the steaks, I moan and groan all over the meat, even if it is a tad overcooked (I like my steak almost raw), I thank him for cooking them for me. If he is going to the store and asks if I need something, I come up with something, and then make sure to thank him for remembering the item I "needed", even if I specifically asked for something else (spinach vs kale, it's fine). Several times each day, I reach up and press my cheek up against his, or nuzzle his neck. I tell him how warm he is and how good he smells. I thank him whenever he takes me out to eat, and make sure he knows how much I enjoyed it. I tuck my nose under his chin when I rest my head on his shoulder. I kiss him on the cheek and all over his face. I serve him hot coffee and a bagel on Sunday mornings. I send him affectionate texts, even though he rarely responds. He lives for these tokens. He gets quite depressed when I am too sick or busy to stroke him like this. I had influenza B last week and we are going through this right now. I have to double up on my love this week to calm him down.
Well I aint getting ANY
Well I aint getting ANY cherishing! However, this isn't about me is it?
Here's what I did for him yesterday- I sent him a text while he was at work and he responded in a positive way (I think?) so that was a big change and really rather simple- so I'm going to do that again. I'm not a texter- but hey! I can change!
I bought him his favourite chocolates- I kept putting them in my bag, taking them out, putting them back etc etc until in the end I left them on the table. He never notices ANYTHING so after he'd walked past them a few times I said I'd bought him some chocolates. I never eat these ones so only buy them for him.
Later, he asked me if the chocolates were for him. I said yes, he said thank-you,I said you're very welcome, he said do you want one, I said no they're for you and he ate them.
When he came home from work he was under his usual cloud that he brings in with him, but this time I asked if he minded me sending the text, he said no.
I said how was your day he said usual (this is the old conversation we used to have) but... I asked him to expand on the but and it was tense but I think I need to keep doing this.He did ask how I'd been and I said shit- neither of us had slept.
I did a bit more reading and calmed down and we had a peaceful evening in the end.
This is my strategy for the next few days- send him texts, buy him a little treat, push him a little on how he feels then leave it alone.
What do I do for myself? Talk to people, read a lot, go to work, go out with friends this evening, get back my strength.
What does he do for me? Zilch,zero,nada...
This is hard. Is it really what I want the rest of my life? Looks like it may have to be...
What do you get back Ipso?
Whoever said women are the
Whoever said women are the weaker sex never met the ladies on this board. I'm very independent, I don't need much. We hardly see each other but he is affectionate when we are together. He is a good lover and a good provider. He's intelligent and we have stimulating conversations. He's funny and likes to have a good time. I do have to coddle him a bit though. He can't take criticism.
Absolutely- I was thinking
Absolutely- I was thinking the very same yesterday! We seem to spend so much of our energy pandering to the whims and weak, tender sensitivities of men!
I am very independent too and don't need 'much' I think what a would really like is an honest, grown-up relationship which has been denied me all my life.
I think maybe the difference is I see The Ostrich every single day just now- I do go away on my own more than he does- he has done it once in ten years, but most of the time I'm on my own here whilst he's working.
He pays the bills- that's it. I let him pay for other things because he seems to like throwing his money around and he might as well throw it at me, but I'd manage ok on my own.
He used to be a good lover, but I can't separate love from affection in the way he can- I want more than just him showing off his physical skills lol!
My Ostrich is intelligent too and those neutral conversations about politcs, current affairs, films and stuff still go on- but I can have those with other people. My Ostrich has a very odd sense of humour- it isn't natural and he rarely makes me laugh, which I think is important in a relationship. He used to be fun, though, and we have done crazy things together but not for a long time. Like lots of men, he thinks all advice is criticism so I don't give him any anymore- which is why we are in this fix. He really can't make good decisions by himself. His judgement is flawed very often- I thought he was different but like most men he feels threatened by an intelligent woman who can see through so much crap and wants a bit of authenticity in her life. Oh hum- we are giving it until Monday. I'm not very hopeful and I'm starting to resent the expectation that I have to fix a man who was seriously damaged long before I met him.
If we decide to part it will be a clean break- I don't take prisoners.
Remind him about all the fun
Remind him about all the fun you two used to have together, and let him know that you miss it. Ask him what next crazy thing is on his list. Give him time to come up with a plan for something you two can do together. Whatever it is, enjoy it!
My poor DH is a battered husband. He gets mauled by me. Shaken husband syndrome. If affection is what you want, initiate it. He won't mind. Just take it slow.
I think he has forgotten all
I think he has forgotten all the fun times-and there were many. However, when I asked him about holidays he said he didn't want to go away with me and didn't want to discuss his retirement plans. I gave him lots of time last year, even took him away on a surprise weekend for his birthday which he said he enjoyed, and cost me a fortune; but he doesn't make plans-so I waited, and waited and waited. Then he told me he doesn't make plans so I have planned my own holidays.
I have tried the initiating thing-but after too many cold shoulders you do give up. He does mind. He is replying to my texts and thanking me for the treats- what more could I want lol?
It sounds like you've done
It sounds like you've done what you can. I thought maybe he thought you were rejecting him but that doesn't seem to be the case. He needs to make more of an effort. If I were in your shoes, I would ignore him and go on with my life. If he leaves, he leaves. Whatever. It sounds like emotional punishment to me now. He obvioulsy has no empathy regarding your feelings.
This is hard to face up to
This is hard to face up to but this is what I have been doing for over a year now- if Ihad just booked my holidays without consulting him nothing would have changed and he would never have initiated 'the conversation' he said he would- probably until the day of his retirement (or non-retirement, whatever) I am feeling a bit more positive but he needs to make the changes himself. I'm giving him a few more days- he's admitted my feelings don't matter to him-is that depression or just heartlessness?
I can keep this up for a few more days but that's it... I've given him every chance...
I can see how it could be
I can see how it could be depression.
It's like he has empty nest syndrome and lost retiree syndrome all rolled into one package.
I don't think it's necessarily that the kids don't care/love him... but they are experiencing the natural separation that happens with people when they become adults and have their own lives. Not everyone remains enmeshed with their folks once they move out on their own. So the kids are busy with their lives and in a time when they don't crave/need a lot of contact with their family. Over time, that may change.. as they get older, they may crave that connection more.
I think it is positive that the kids aren't focusing animosity towards you btw. I think it shows their acceptance of your place with their father and that they aren't holding on to some grudge. You are dad's wife.. not their mom.. and no real reason to keep up close connections right?
The retirement is probably most scary for him. He feels like he will be lost with no purpose and I think this is compounding his need for CHANGE.. ANY Change.. separation.. skydiving.. just something to breathe something into a life he sees as winding down and disconnected.
I think he needs counseling on his own to deal with this malaise.
Thanks Esmod! I think you may
Thanks Esmod! I think you may be right about his kids- maybe they just wanted me out of the way so they could get on with what they are doing without me hanging on- I should have disengaged much earlier!
Funny how my perception of things were scewed by some of the things The Ostrich had said, when they just wanted us to back off. I enjoyed the times with his grandkids when they were small- but even they are getting older now and have lives, friends and activities of their own.
I have been realising that this retirement business may have been the issue all along, but the skids were just a smokescreen for him.I really do hope we can get back to a sense of 'us' again-he does have to face up to the fact that he isn't Disney daddy anymore, but just a man who has to start living life for himself with me at his side.
I am feeling much more positive today but the counselling is still important for us both if only so that we can clear the air and put things in place for whenever another crisis occurs, which undoubtably it will...
Has to be depressed
As someone who retired, it is depressing. He is going to working 11 hours a day to staying home. You lose all that work place friends, stories, what going on in other peoples life. You do lose that you matter, in the work world.
also now have to face certain facts. If he did not travel in 60 odd years. He not going to do it now. But now he doesn’t have that excuse anymore. He only see you,',,,, working travel 12 hours sleep 7 That 19 See you maybe 5 hours a day. Now is going to be 24/7. Maybe he can continue to work. Get a part time job something he really enjoys doing. Working for enjoyment not the money
you allso see that you are getting close to the end of your life. Can’t do what you used to do. He doesn’t want to face that. Has to work on his relationship with you, that should make him happy
Thanks Harry, I would
Thanks Harry, I would understand how difficult it is for him if he had ever told me he really likes his work,but he hasn't. He has no friends there- the only social event is to go for a curry at Christmas with the 'boys' he doesn't even have a drink and comes home early. I've begun to think it can't be that bad as he goes day after day as you say, but if asked he will say he hates his job.
Over the years I've tried to help but he has ignored my advice, now I don't give him any because he says I want to control him. He could have gone part time years ago but hasn't taken that option. He can have all the paid holiday he likes but takes no time off. He is supposed to be the boss but just does what everyone esle wants- it seems to me he works for them not the other way round. Now maybe you get my frustration?
I understand about the 24/7 thing- but that is about adapting to change. One of the problems is that he has no hobbies, but I will continue to work and I have my own life and interests andIexpect him tohave his too.
He has travelled a lot in his life,and even with me- but a year ago it all changed, he stopped taking holidays and making any plans. I think that is when the depression really started, but he shut me out and I did my own thing. Now, as you say, we need to work together to make a life that makes us both happy.
Thankyouf or your kind words.