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That escalated quickly

TrueNorth77's picture

Sorry to be a blog hog- but I can honestly not even believe what happened since my last blog on Tue. 
 

At SD14's request, her therapist scheduled a zoom call with DH and Crazy this morning, which SD ended up attending. At first she wasn't going to, but Of course she did, because it meant Crazy let her miss an entire day of school for a 45 min call, after missing school Tue also for a counseling appt that was at 4pm! (She gets home at 3:35). But I digress. 
 

After the meeting I talked to DH, and he said SD told him she hates him, he is the reason she is depressed and suicidal, she doesn't want to come back here and wants to stay at Crazy's for the next 4wks, with no contact. Then see how she feels after. At first DH said absolutely not. I mean this is insane. Nothing happened to get to this point. There was no big event, she KNOWS her struggles are with friends. Overall it was a normal week. This is so out of left field, it doesn't make sense. We have a week-on/week-off CO, so when DH said no, the counselor said that if SD stayed with Crazy and he called the police, they probably wouldn't do anything because SD is a teen and this is family court stuff. She's "never seen them do anything". Wtf?!? Why would you say that?! DH said he saw Crazy's eyes light up. THEN, the counselor said that SD "does need to go to school when she's at her moms", and if she didn't, maybe then she would have to come back to DH's. So, If Crazy can't parent and SD misses school, SD comes here as a punishment? I swear my jaw was on the floor the whole time DH was talking. But wait, it gets worse, and this really takes the cake:

The counselor said that if SD starts to threaten suicide and it becomes a real concern at Crazy's, then maybe she should come back to our house so there is "always someone around"...Because I WFH, and Crazy and DH do not. So the plan would be to send the now super-suicidal teen to OUR house so I, the lowly SM who doesn't even get invited to the safety plan sessions regarding SD, would babysit her and be responsible for her, and this was being suggested without my contribution or ok. ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?!  DH said absolutely not- that is not happening. I was yelling when he told me this because what in the actual F*ck- and he agreed- it's crazy and not happening. 
 

DH was pissed at the counselor- he told her that SD is alienated from him by her mom, and she is enabling it and allowing this to happen. He said, mark my words- this is where things start to go downhill for her. Meaning, not excelling in life- missing more school, bad grades, missing work, not going to college, the whole 9 yards, because that's what Crazy and her other daughter teach. 
He said he could hear the counselor start crying. She was crying! Then she was like, well, to be clear, I don't think SD should stay at her moms for 4 wks. Then why did you call this meeting and tell them the police wouldn't enforce the CO?! Also, she told DH that she never asked about SD's method to commit suicide because she 100% does not believe she is suicidal. She thinks she is trying to get attention, and is being manipulative, and she didn't want to give it more attention by asking her method. 
 

Anyway. DH came home from work early because he was so upset. He started crying saying he doesn't know what to do. I told him that alienation isn't logical-I know his instinct is to fight it and force SD to be here thinking he can change her mind, but that doesn't work- she will always side with the underdog, which is her mom in her eyes, even when it doesn't make sense. DH said in the meeting that from day 1 we have taken SD seriously, got her on meds and in counseling and bought a safe to lock up her meds, while Crazy told her it was a phase and didn't buy a safe for a year. SD yelled "you already had a safe for guns, you didn't buy one"! DH said that's when he knew he couldn't fight this- SD finds a way to negate everything we do, and she's almost always wrong but will not listen even if you show her proof.  We DID have a tiny gun safe, but DH had to buy a bigger safe for her meds. I was so mad about all of this and what SD said to DH that I actually went to send her a Snapchat of the receipt for the safe we bought 2yrs ago when this all started, but she had blocked me!! I did not do anything to her- we have been good, aside from her driving me absolutely insane. So I text it to her instead and said she was wrong, about a lot of things, and I hope she realizes that someday. She left me unread.
 

After we talked, DH called her and told her she can stay there for 4wks- if she hates him and it's all his fault, then stay there, but this is not a thing where he needs to grovel and make things right with her, there is no changing her mind during these 4wks, and she is not to ask him for anything. She's like "ok", and that was it. DH was SO upset. My heart breaks for him, I've never seen him like this. He is sad and angry and callled her many names (to me), and He said he can see this being one of those things where they don't talk for years. But he's so afraid that when left to only Crazy's influence, she will become a complete loser, or get knocked up and have multiple kids while working fast food. It's a valid concern. I said, if she does, her and her babies are NOT living with us- he said oh hell no, not a chance. 
 

I am so anxious to see how this goes after the 4 weeks. I am heartbroken for DH, but I am not sad to not have SD here for a few weeks. 

ETA: I would welcome any stories you have of alienation. I have mentioned to DH that he is not the only one dealing with parental alienation, but he doesn't know anyone who has dealt with this so he is feeling like a total failure as a parent. I would love to be able to tell him of other's experiences, just so he knows he's not alone, and how common this can be in COD. 

Comments

Felicity0224's picture

This is all so familiar. OSD was 15 when she first went through her phase of threatening suicide any time she wasn't getting her way. This may not be much comfort to you now, but it was a rollercoaster for a few years. She hated us, everything was our fault, blah blah blah. Her therapist (chosen by BM, of course) was also extremely inexperienced and did a LOT of damage by supporting BM's alienation. It wasn't until OSD went into an inpatient facility at 18 after a halfhearted suicide attempt that she actually saw a qualified therapist who was worth a damn. At that time she was prescribed a mood stabilizer and an antidepressant. It took a bit to get dosages sorted out, and there have been ups and downs, but now she's 20 and it's like she's a completely different human.

When it all started, I genuinely believed that our relationship with her was going to be damaged beyond repair because the things she said and the things she claimed to believe were so completely unhinged that I just couldn't fathom that we could come back from it. But we did, and she's truly a delight to have around. Her relationship with BM is very, very strained because she's started to put together how BM manipulated her and she obviously doesn't appreciate it.

All that to say, I know how painful it is when the situation seems so hopeless and final. But maybe there is still hope that your SD will mature and get the right kind of help for whatever she's going through. 

TrueNorth77's picture

I love this story! I'm so happy it worked out that way for you. I told DH that I have heard of teens coming back from this, but he is definitely in his feels and thinks it's a lost cause and hopeless at this point. And to be fair, it does feel like she is so far gone that it would be hard to come back from, but I also know she does love us and I tend to believe that her claims of suicide last week didn't get the results she wanted with DH (not sure what she expected, but I believe tears and lots of extra attention), so she escalated things here. This is completely out of the blue. The only caveat to having hope it could turn around is that Crazy is SO toxic and unhinged, as is her older daughter, and DH said SD's behavior is exactly like theirs. So he feels the chances of her seeing the light and not ending up like them is very slim. We'll see. But I really appreciate your story and I will be relaying it to DH. :) 

Rose_Pedal's picture

Oh my goodness lady, I feel for you. I have no words other than I am so sorry you are dealing with this. Being a step-parent can be so thankless and NOT rewarding, not even a little.

Definitely not that I would ever want it to happen in this dramatic ridiculous way but man, if I could get SD out of my home for 4 weeks straight I think I would be so happy! Lol, okay that was horrible to say, sorry not sorry. Ha!

TrueNorth77's picture

I would never admit this anywhere but here, but even as I was being objective in my advice to DH (you can't fight alienation, you will just be the bad guy attacking her precious mom), I was secretly thinking of my SD-free month and how it might be too good to be true. I mean honestly, I don't think it's good for her, she will most likely miss more school, and work, and her grades will certainly drop more because Crazy doesn't care about school at all, so the best thing would be for her to keep coming here, but I also don't think the best thing is to force her. And she has been making everyone here miserable anyway, so am I happy to have a break from that? Sure am! Sorrynot sorry. :P 

Appreciate the sympathy, I went to bed emotionally exhausted, and extremely mad that a 14yr old yet again made my DH (who never cries at anything except Ted Lasso and the occasional sad movie) cry with her attention-seeking. 

advice.only2's picture

This sounds like Spawn; except we had custody and it got to a point where no matter what we said or did Meth Mouth was the savior and we were the villains.  DH allowed Spawn to move in with her maternal grandmother her senior year because things had gotten so toxic. I would like to say they get better, but they don’t. DH has been estranged from Spawn for all her adult life, except for a few instances where she reached out to him and met up with him to blame him all over again for everything and to tell him what a saint Meth Mouth is. Your SDs counselor is toxic, and your DH should report her to her board or something.

TrueNorth77's picture

DH fully expects SD to turn out exactly like Spawn, honestly. His expectations are extremely low at this point. He said he always wondered about people being alienated from their parents for years, how a disagreement could turn into that, and he said he could totally see it going that way with SD. I can see it going both ways, her coming to her senses and seeing the manipulation from Crazy...but your exact situation with Spawn also feels like a distinct possibility. 

Agree that DH should report her, I mean who suggests that you ignore a CO?? She tried to backtrack at the end but you can't take back those words. 

AgedOut's picture

She got what she wanted but I think she expects him to cater to her needs, bring her food, give her rides, buy her things to prove his love. 

I suggest a simple "no" every time she asks. She claims to hate him, she has to hate all of him, including his wallet. 

the same goes for her mommy. 

and if you hear word one of a suicide threat, she needs to be taken to the hospital. Let her and her wackadoodle mommy know that suicide threats are real and will be treated as such. 

 

I would also file a complaint with the director of the counselors work place. that is not professional advice and her crying shows me she is not suited for the job.

 

Harry's picture

Crazy and DH. who IMHO. Spends way too much time and head space with crazy.  Can't handle SD.  Because of there fighting it's give SD a opening .. To play them against each other.  
You did not make the BM ..DH marrage or divorce....  You did not make SD or make SD behave in this way.  You will not Babysit SD.   As Crazy and DH, wash there hands  of the work. SD needs.   DH and BM are not working together, to solve anything.  One should change there job or hours to be free in the day time as normal people do it.  

Cover1W's picture

My OSD20 was PAS'd around age 13 and has estranged herself to this day.

Not all kids are successfully PAS'd. It does take a specific personality to do so (YSD17 I would say is "partially PAS'd" but not all the way because she's less bent to other's influences). My OSD was always not a very nice kid, knew how to get what she wanted, played both parents, was the "ringleader" of her friend group and was a bully (confirmed to me by another parent) even though she complained herself about being bullied. She wanted to be catered to and entertained all the time.

Well, as she became a young teen DH had about enough as her attitude became worse at our home (and through some accounts BMs). BM let her have her way all.the.time. DH, while not insituting firm ground rules and still wishy-washy came down on her about attitude and entitlement (too late IMHO) and she went running every time to BM. She'd cry to BM on the phone for hours when she was here and didn't like what DH was doing, or likely me. I think she filmed us and she also texted BM. BM became her 'best friend' during this time.

DH had many convos with BM, some of which I overheard, and it was appaling. BM would believe a 13 yo's story all the time, over the adult, DH. Nothing DH said, explained, or had proof of was believed by BM. We just had to be nice to OSD and do what she wanted. Um, no. OSD eventually started refusing to come to our house because she was mad at DH or scared of DH or whatever excuse there was. BM supported her, at 13, decision to not come. Because it was so hard on her. BM does not respect, like or support DH as a father figure whatsoever. He's not important. He can be ignored and that certainly was instilled in OSD, and to some extent, to YSD.

After OSD refused to come to our home, counselling was tried. And failed - BM "could not get OSD then 14 to go." This was to a highly respected therapist who had PAS experience. BM suggested just bringing YSD. DH said no. We found out later OSD did see a therapist herself who supported everything OSD said (DH had one meeting with her and nearly walked out) regardless, again, of the other adult.

There were two in person meetups with OSD since then. A dinner with all of us (me, BM, DH, YSD and OSD); note I initially refused because it was supposed to be at BMs home - um, NO. OSD came out as "bi" to us there. We literally shrugged and said "ok." After dinner, after not speaking much at all to DH and nothing to me, OSD literally RAN out of the restaurant to the car yelling at BM to unlock it like she was trying to get away from DH. The next meeting was with DH and OSD along with a "neutral party" (Laughable because it turned out to be BMs best friend) OSD set a 15 minute timer on the table (I think she was 15 now and hadn't seen DH for a year???). She wouldn't listen at all to DH, ignored his proof that he had tried to contact her, talked down to him, swore at him, and then ended the meeting. It was a disaster. DH thinks she had it planned out.

After THAT DH decided to take both SDs on a week long trip to europe with us. Completely against my wishes. This is in my blogs. He thought it would reconcile the break. NOPE. Not a word of thanks to him and cut ties again when we got back.

Two years pass and she's 17 applying for college. DH refuses to provide a money commitment when BM, not OSD, asks for one because he knows nothing. Not what schools she's applying to, her plans, what funding she does have already (BM and her father have the $$), what about the no contact thing and no, he refused to pay until he can have a discussion about it with OSD. Well, after some time, this does happen over the phone - again, disaster. She quickly begins yelling and swearing at him because he won't simply open his wallet - in fact, he does say something like "I'm not just a wallet." She hangs up on him after yelling "You are destroying my college dreams!" Whatever.

To this day they haven't spoken, so around 3 years now.

DH got himself a counselor, which has helped. He still sends birthday and xmas gifts (no thanks of course). He has tried to contact her but he becomes very upset at no response although I tell him don't expect one and keep doing it. She has blocked me. She hates my guts too (per my sis in law who also knows our sitution and also has a nightmare of a SS and SD situation) and stopped talking with me before DH. He still gets into funks and I have to make it clear to him when he lashes out at ME than I cannot help him or resolve it for him. He still desperately wants resolution, which cannot happen unless OSD also wants it. I listen, I give general responses (I'm sorry, that's terrible, I see, etc.).  It will not end, it is also called ambiguous loss or something like that. Estrangement is the worst. It doesn't end.

I highly suggest your DH stick to your household's expectations. And give SD space. I would recommend your DH contact her and tell her that he will agree to her terms of the temporary break which are (then list them). If her birthday or holiday falls during it, he should send a card or small gift or something. Nothing extravagent. Keep all copies of DH's contacts. She will need them some day. Expect anything sent to BMs to be intercepted by BM. Expect BM to be listening to phone calls and reading texts. If possible, find a personal counslor for DH. Support him, listen and have empathy (which you certainly do).

TrueNorth77's picture

Sooo much of this is eerily similar, and I could see this happening here. I could see it going either way really, but this is a distinct possibility, and I think it's what DH expects. What a nightmare. 
That's a great tip to keep track of all attempts to communicate (after the 4wks of course). He did FaceTime her to let her know she could stay there, and made it VERY clear she was not to ask him for anything, she would be there for the entirety of the 4wks- this would not be a ploy to get him to grovel after her and beg for forgiveness for something he did not do. And if she comes back here, the expectations of going to school, getting decent grades, and doing chores all stand. He told her it hurt his feelings that she was doing this and made him extremely worried for her future, said he would talk to her in 4wks and hung up. I thought he did well. I honestly think that she was hoping for more of a reaction from him last week when she said she had to talk to us and he would be "emotional" (the suicide talk). He did not get emotional. It was not the reaction she wanted. She got to her moms and I KNOW they talked, Crazy started talking crap about DH's response to SD's talk, SD got wound up and decided to escalate it to get a reaction out of DH. SS says it's also "cool" at school now to have daddy issues. 
DH is much more in a "screw her" mindset today. He is hurt and sad, but also upset at her actions. He's like, Fine, let her do this. I tend to agree.

CastleJJ's picture

I can't speak to our own experience with alienation. We are definitely facing it, but SS11 is caught in loyalty binds. He loves all of us; BM, GF, DH, and I, but doesn't want to upset BM and GF by loving us. He will do/say anything to make BM happy and prevent himself from dealing with her silent treatment or emotionally manipulative punishments. SS doesn't view DH and I as parental figures; we are more like aunt/uncle and BM and GF are the parents. He holds their opinions, rules, etc. above anything we decide. He still is polite to us and enjoys spending time with us, but there is a significant difference between the relationships between BM and GF and SS and SS with us. They are home and we are visiting a relative. 

My grandpa, however, experienced alienation with his two kids - DD and DS. He was married to his ex, who was unemployed, low educated, and lived off of the system. My grandpa had every other weekend visitation, split holidays, and a whole month in the summer. He paid very hefty child support since he was a doctor. The kids were 3 and 5 when the divorce took place. My grandma and grandpa both said that the kids were always terrible during visits, blaming them for everything, yelling/emotional, etc. Things only escalated when the kids got older. My grandpa said there was one weekend that DS screamed at him and told him "I never want to see you again!" and Grandpa was so frustrated with his behavior and forcing a terrible relationship that he said "Fine! Don't. If you don't want to be here, I won't make you." DS pulled down his pants at 12 years old and defecated on the foyer floor and my grandpa immediately drove him home to BM. When DS got back to BM's, DS lied and told BM that grandpa drove him to the court house and filed for full custody. BM freaked out on my grandpa, who explained how illogical that is, given that BM would have received a court summonce or FOC documentation had he filed anything. He basically explained to BM and both kids that he isn't playing this game and if the kids hated him so much, so be it, he would leave them alone.

That was the last time he saw his kids before high school graduation. He tried reaching out, but either BM blocked it or it was unproductive with the kids. My grandpa attended their high school graduation and all DS could say was "Do you have a check for me?" My grandpa cut all contact after that. His son died at 38 years old of a heart condition, never reaching out again prior to his death. My grandpa's ex mailed him the obituary with a note that said "You would have loved him" as if my grandpa ever had that choice. My grandpa mailed his daughter a letter after his son's death (about 10 years ago) and she reached out to "rebuild the relationship" which turned into visiting once a year to use my grandparents' house as a vacation destination and ask for money from him. Even in her mid-40s, she refuses to be accountable for her own actions that contributed to the failure of their relationship and continues to blame Daddy for everything. She believes he "owes" her and paying for his mistake of "not fighting for her" forever is the only restitution possible (even though she doesn't think that is even enough). She never called for birthdays, Father's Day, to check in, etc. so he started distancing himself again. My grandma faced multiple life threatening episodes of sepsis over the last 10 years and one year, his daughter bitched to my grandpa about the fact that her kids didn't get enough Christmas presents from them that year (despite the fact my grandma was on her deathbed the whole month of December that year). When my grandma died last year, she never reached out, never attended the funeral, and never checked in on him afterward. My grandma's birthday recently passed and instead of calling her Dad to see how he was doing, given it was the first birthday since grandma passed, she took to FB to post about how much she loved and missed her dearly departed BM and how BM did everything for her. He told us recently that he is done with her and took her out of the will. 

In instances like yours or my grandpa's, I don't see these situations getting better. I see kids seeking the paths of least resistance despite what is good for them. They want the fun parent with no rules or responsibilities or the parent that buys their bullshit. SD is going to side with BM because BM makes this suicidal ideation thing easy; she doesn't ask too many questions and isn't doing anything, allowing SD to live and relish in her victimhood. You and DH on the otherhand are doing everything right and trying to "fix" her which is the opposite of what SD wants. SD wants to be the victim. You are right, SD will likely grow up to be a loser like BM and their family. You and DH have to find peace knowing you did everything you could and there was no stopping this outcome. 

TrueNorth77's picture

I appreciate you sharing that story. I can see the similarities, even through things that have happened today. SD responded to my text (the pic of the receipt for the safe) and said she had blocked me, she doesn't know how she got that text, and since she is "not in contact with her father", she doesn't want me to contact her either. And how her own father had until this past Sunday (3 days) to decide if he was going to MAKE her come here this week- but since he told her the same day (Fri) that she didn't have to come, what kind of father would do that?? So now she is even more a victim, because she got what she wanted, but DH didn't do it exactly how she wanted. Also, we caused her "so much trauma" by "laughing at her wanting to khs". And yes she abbreviated the last part. We never laughed at her having suicidal thoughts and she knows it.  She sure has twisted the story though, and now she is a victim of a dad and SM who laughed at her having suicidal thoughts. Doesn't that make a great story when you are looking for attention? 
Anyway. I feel like you are right, and it's very early but this is feeling harder and harder to get past. She is villainizing us as much as she can. I didn't even do anything and she has me blocked! 
 

It's sad- I feel for your grandpa having to deal with all of that also. Sometimes it feels like it's all for nothing, such stupid petty childish reasons. And PAS is just insane. And I'm sorry- his DS crapped on the floor??? Good grief, I would have drove his ass over to BM's too. Bye!