Abortion...Kind of
I got into a debate with a family member over the christmas period and was quite surprised about their point of view.
We were talking about contraceptive and that basically men are on a bit of a back foot in that their contraceptive options are; condoms or no sex (sorry I am not regarding "pull out" method as contraceptive in this debate)
Whereas women have a larger range of options; pill, injection, implant, coil, female condoms, etc, etc.
For whatever reason condoms never really took off, generally speaking people admit to not really liking them; men and women alike. Yet here we are in the 21st century and men still only have that one option.
Now for what I am about to say is only valid (in my mind) for very specific circumstances. I am talking of circumstances whereby a couple is together, are using contraceptive (whichever form) to prevent pregnancy but that contraception fails.
As it presently stands in this scenario the woman holds all the cards. If she wants an abortion and the man doesnt, there is nothing he can do, she can have the abortion and he just has to deal with it. But on the other side, if the woman decides she wants to keep the baby, the man doesnt have any say and he just has to deal with it (and in theory step up to becoming a father)
I hate to say it, but that seems a little old fashioned and sexist for our modern society.
I think men should have some other option, to be able to have the option for example;
If they do not want the child, then at the point of known pregnancy stating as such and being able to legally protect themselves, with the mothers full knowledge, essentially removing his parental rights, legal/financial responsibility and allowing the mother to legally be the sole parent of the child.
Or likewise, if the woman really didnt want to be a mother but the man wanted the child that the reverse should be possible.
My relative turned to me and said "No because then there will be an increase of women feeling forced into abortion when faced with the prospect of raising that child alone." but my thought is it should be a conscious decision of both partners if both are to become parents, one cannot and should not be able to make the decision for the other. And what about all those men out there that upon finding out their partner was pregnant wanted the child (as often happens to women) but were robbed of that because the woman gets full control? Is that not just as much an issue?
According to society, no.
I think something like this would help stop those women in the world that when their partner says "no im not ready for this" tell them "oh thats fine ill raise it alone" then cue 5 years down the line they are being taken to court for support but blocked from visitation.
What do you all think?
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Absolutely!! 100%!! One of my
Absolutely!! 100%!!
One of my friends is a BM(3bks with first hubby, royally screwed him)...her and fiance just had a baby but at the beginning he suggested an abortion. He's mid 30's, child free, and sort of freaked. My friend being a paralegal printed out an outline for an agreement.He would have no legal binding but cs until baby is 24! WTF! Her and I went rounds! I learned a lot that day.It's, outrageous!
Every child a wanted child! IMO, get rid of CS and some government programs and a lot more women will remember their bc
We are talking about people
We are talking about people that would be born, not puppies. It is bad enough that children are born because of the extreme irresponsibility by two people that were too horny to use birth control, but to subject that child to mandated legal abandonment is morally reprehensible.
If you are a woman and don't want a child, then you take birth control and use condoms. Period. If the guy doesn't like condoms, and you still can't help yourselves, then no intercourse. It is really that simple. If you are a guy and don't want a child, then you have sex with someone you trust and would want as a partner, and slap on a condom. Period.
No man is forced to have sex
No man is forced to have sex with someone they don't want to have a child with.
Men need to really take into consideration before having a moment of pleasure, that they may be financially responsible to a child that will be raised by a woman who they don't love. Women need to face the fact that men walk away from raising children with a woman that the don't love more often then not, and they may be responsible to raise a child alone.
It all starts with personal responsibility.
The "we" that you are
The "we" that you are speaking of is the hard working tax payors who don't want to be supporting some single moms not getting support, because men don't want to take responsibility for their irresponsible actions. I don't care if the man doesn't want to be a dad or not, I also don't as a tax payer, pay for his regret in having his sexual needs met with someone who he didn't want a kid with.
In my state the father is
In my state the father is responsible for child care, child support, insurance, and medical expenses. If the state pays any benefits to the mom, then they will take it from the dad.
I would rather that the state take it from the man who felt the need to get his rocks off without a condom. (97% effective).
And woman lie all of the time. When my adult son started having sex, his dad told him to make sure to wrap it up and flat out told him not to trust his girlfriend or any woman, or be prepared to be financially responsible for a possible child, because he (biodad) was not going to pay for his sons irresponsibility and neither was the government.
Actually I do. I have
Actually I do. I have daughters as well. And I will not allow them to be naive or stupid.
You are darn right that I am going tell them how it is. I am going to tell them that men leave all the time or worse yet they can die. So when they decide to have a child, they need to be fully independent and capable of caring for a child completely on their own before having kids.
Life taught me what happens when you have kids you can't afford. My grandma had six kids with the love of her life (grandpa) who was killed by a drunk driver when she was pregnant with the last kid. She lived a very hard life after that. I waited until after I got married to even decide to have a child, and although my ex WANTED a herd, I knew it wasn't feasible for me.
I have made no illusions that relationships don't last. I am once divorced, as well as their father. I have made no illusions that a child does not bind two people together, so they need to wait until they actually want to have a child to have a child.
No, I teach them all (son and
No, I teach them all (son and daughters) to be responsible for their actions in life.
My adult son knows that he is responsible for his body in that if he has a choice right now to not have kids. His father has told him that flat out. If his girlfriend does not respect his choice in protecting himself then he needs to face the reality that if she gets pregnant, then the choice is out of his hands. If she gets pregnant he will be responsible.
I will teach my daughters to protect themselves as well. They need to protect themselves not only from getting pregnant, but from std's as well. I will tell them not to be naive and trusting. Of course I will! Unless you are married (and even so) don't trust that any man will be completely faithful.
The fact is that in reality each of my kids is responsible for their bodies and reproduction. I will tell them that too blindly put faith into anyone else's hands is just stupid.
People lie all of the time. To trust someone that you are not a life partner with is to be naive and dumb.
In percentage states, the
In percentage states, the father gets reamed. They take a set percentage of his income, regardless of the moms income. PLUS expenses.
It would be best to just teach them that unless are trying to have a child with a long term partner, then to wrap it up.
Right on!
Right on!
100% agree
100% agree
A bazillion foot pole? Hey,
A bazillion foot pole? Hey, you can pass me some Zing Zang with that pole!
Well Eff! I'll share my
Well Eff! I'll share my lovely Belle Glos Clark & Telephone pinot noir with you!
I feel like its the nature of
I feel like its the nature of the people you choose to have sex with. Maybe its because I live in the bible belt but to me, most grown ups and I use that term loosely should have the "what if" conversation with their sexual partner to get a feel on what would happen if there was an accident. Does this conversation happen? Obviously in reality most people skip this step which is why we have such a debate on abortions and women's right to choose (even for the man). I made it very clear to my DH (then BF/fiance) that if I got pregnant before I was ready (before marriage and commitment) that I would have an abortion-no questions asked with our without his support so he knew if an accident did happen what I would do and he had to be okay with that or stop dating (having sex) with me if he was bothered by that decision. He understood, I was still in college and a server making 3.12 and hour plus tips (aren't that great in my neck of the woods) so there was no way I was going to have a child. And obviously this doesn't work for the one-night-stands out in the world but I've never been that gal so I don't have any suggestions for them.
Or knock at the back door...
Or knock at the back door... :O
.
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I agree totally.
I agree totally.
My teddy weddy got the snip
My teddy weddy got the snip after BabyD
THIS THIS THIS THIS!! After I
THIS THIS THIS THIS!!
After I had Thing1 and Thing2, I wanted to have my tubes ties. My OB wouldn't do it, because he said I was only 29 (and?), what would happen if Asshat died (uh, I would be a widow with three kids) and maybe I wanted more kids (uh - NOPE!!!). He told me he would do it when I turned 30.
I was on his operating table on my 30th birthday
WTF. as if a few months is
WTF. as if a few months is going to change anything regarding your wishes? wooowww....
i wish i could get mine tied. h3ll, i wish they'd just gut me! (*giggles* that's actually what my nana said when she was scheduled for her hysterectomy!) i'd perfectly be happy without those body parts.
You don't want little tuff's
You don't want little tuff's running around? Throwing up in your hair? Messing your favorite shoes? Pooping runny stuff in the middle of your Xmas dinner all over your dining room floor?
F*CK NO! in 10 years i want
F*CK NO! in 10 years i want to be playing with grandkids, not attending elementary school P/T conferences! in 16 years i want to have a nice, quiet, comfortable life, not worrying about getting my kid a car, keeping my kid away from drugs or worrying about my kid becoming a parent too soon.
nah, i'm good, thanks
If a bloke doesn't want to be
If a bloke doesn't want to be a father then dont f*** without a wrapper. Pretty f***ing simple. Get horny when you drink and throw caution to the wind....then dont f***ing drink.
And women....dont get pregnant unless you can provide for the kid without screwing some bloke over for his money. Getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant doesn't happen spontaneously ffs
one thing i've drilled into
one thing i've drilled into the boys' heads is this - "ALWAYS wrap it. *and* DONT stick it in Stupid. if u can manage BOTH of these instructions, each time, every time, u won't have an 'oops'."
If yer gonna attack her, wrap
If yer gonna attack her, wrap yer whacker!
Condoms are not 100% foolproof. They break. That being said, ladies, tell your sons to make sure THEY buy their own condoms. DO NOT, repeat, NOT use a condom provided by a possibly conniving female. Especially since some females have been know to poke holes in the condoms to facilitate breakage in the HOPE of getting pregnant.
if male contraceptives become
if male contraceptives become a reality, they still need to wrap it due to STD's. and THAT protects both the male and the female.
Agreed, Tuff. Still, condoms
Agreed, Tuff. Still, condoms are not infallible and can break.
~Aniki passes Tuff come cambozola~
LMFAO - um, aniki, poor post
LMFAO - um, aniki, poor post for that kind of typo....
and YUP, they can break. which is where rule #2 comes in- "dont stick it in Stupid." if she's *not* stupid, she'd ALSO be on birth control.
the only 100% way to avoid pregnancy is abstinence. but the chances are greatly reduced by my two rules
O.M.G.!!!!!!!!!!
O.M.G.!!!!!!!!!! :jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop:
If you don't want a kid, then
If you don't want a kid, then don't have sex. Simple.
The fact that it's a WOMAN who gets pregnant and gets to decide to keep the baby or not is really something out of our control. It's like debating on if we need oxygen to breathe or not.
I feel that anytime you have sex you put yourself at risk of having an STD, getting pregnant or getting someone pregnant. So since those are common knowledge you have to deal with the consequences whatever they may be.
Yeah it sucks that men get stuck having kids with woman they didn't want to have kids with. Good enough to fuck but not good enough to have them be the mother of their child. I get it.
But there are PLENTY of women who have kids with men who say they are going to be there and be supportive and do what they need to go and then they don't and women get stuck with raising these kids on their own.
In life there are always consequences for our actions in almost every single thing we do. This is just another one of them.
Oh and if men were to somehow
Oh and if men were to somehow be off the hook for impregnating a female because they didn't want to be a dad, man oh man they would be sticking their junk in anything with no regards.
Because men are just stupid like that.
And woman would keep having sex thinking these men are going to stick around because women are just stupid like that.
So it's basically the same thing.
And I'm not too sure how many Dad's who do pay child support and do what they are supposed to do (whether they wanted to at the beginning or not) REALLY TRULY regret having their kid. They end up loving them and bonding with them and happy that they have them.
Unfortunately, zero, not all
Unfortunately, zero, not all men love and bond with their children. My ex BF has NO relationship with his 20 yo twins. Never bonded with them, has never been there for them, is/was a sh!t father, and proof positive that some men will NEVER step up to the plate. That crap and alcohol put an end to our relationship.
Isn't that statutory rape?
Isn't that statutory rape? That is just crazy. He is a prime example of why a parent needs to be blunt and teach their kids about sex. I think the blame in that situation lies partly with the dh's parents.
I can imagine that her
I can imagine that her parents are pillers of their communities in that they raised a daughter who at 18 thought it was a good idea to intentially get pregnant by a 15 year old. They must have been so proud of her choices in life.
If more woman would actually
If more woman would actually be upfront and tell the guy that before letting him stick it in her, then maybe he would think twice before not wrapping it up or getting fixed.
I actually think you are right in the choice to not have a pregnancy starts before the sex. If a man doesn't want to pay child support or raise a woman that he does not love, then don't have sex wth her. It is that simple.
In some ways it as if some posters are saying it should be okay to have irresponsible sex, whether a man or a woman, because if a child is conceived then either of the irresponsible people should abort or have the child live without the benefit of support.
I think she meant "raise a
I think she meant "raise a child with a woman...".
I live in an extremely
I live in an extremely conservative area where the parent to teen talk is "don't do anything you won't regret!" Sex is not mentioned, protecting yourself from STD's and pregnancy is kept hush and abstinence is taught in schools. It's just "Don't do it until you're married." As a result of this abstinence only program there were 4 prego girls in my high school. I tell my son, "If you need condoms come to me, no questions asked. Just always wear one."
Here babies are easily given up with little regard to father's rights. My SIL (who has mental issues but could pass for normal if you don't know her) gave up her baby and said she had no idea how she got pregnant. Apparently it didn't matter who the father was because the baby was adopted out w/in 2 days. I told DH how truly unfair it was that zero effort was made to find the father to at least give him a choice in the matter. what if he, his mother, or sister had wanted to raise the child?
When babies are born they need food, shelter and care. It all costs $$$. I believe that both parents should contribute to the cost of raising the "child" and only the child until it reaches adulthood. The issue we have in the US is that child support ends up being custodial parent support. CP's often live pretty cushy off the nice ride their child is getting.
We need more birth control access, education, and options for women and men; plus FAIR child support laws that assume equal responsibility from both parents to raise their child.
^^^Agree^^^^ The more options
^^^Agree^^^^
The more options for and access to contraceptives, the better, especially for men. After all, a man who chooses fatherhood will likely do better than one who has it forced upon him.
We cannot complain about fathers who aren't around while giving women all the power in the equation. Two people choose to have unprotected sex, yet from the moment of conception, the male is marginalized, his only expectation financial. Having a child isn't merely an emotional decision, it's also a financial one and I believe both parents should be held equally responsible for it. Can't afford a kid? Don't expect someone else to fund that choice for you.
When I look at my DH, I see a guy who is the poster child for why we need male contraceptives. He has been so beat down by years of cs, sacrifice, court battles, and GUs who controlled the show that he can't even comprehend that things could be different. Both his religion and personal experience trained him that women are Madonnas who have all the say.
We NEED to empower fathers; We NEED to fight against gender bias and financial inequalities within the family court system; We need to teach our children that forcing parenthood on another is morally reprehensible, and we need to embrace the idea of a level playing field.
Here is my 5 cents. PPP's
Here is my 5 cents. PPP's sperm provider and I dated for 3 months. I got pregnant. We used no protection. We were idiots. I CHOSE to continue with the pregnancy. He was not ready to be a father. We discussed abortion. I veto'd it. I have never sued for maintenance, his name is not on her birth certificate. I have no regrets. I spread my legs without asking him to wrap it. My baby. End of the story. We love to place blame on the men. How about women buy a box of condoms and make them wrap it. Problem solved. Babies do not save relationships, they do not keep a man, they do not get you marriage.
It is so easy to say, you laid it you pay for it. There are more than enough contraceptives available for this to no longer be used. Now you can all have a go xx
Aww Lady, and me you xoxoxo
Aww Lady, and me you xoxoxo
thank you
Brava, monchichi! You are a
Brava, monchichi! You are a person of honor and integrity.
Well, this was an interesting
Well, this was an interesting thread to read.
Im quite surprised with so many members commenting "if you dont want a baby then dont have sex" so are you ladies telling me that you only have sex with your partners when you are prepared to have a baby? Forgive me but I know I am not the only one on these boards that enjoys sex without any intention of getting pregnant.
Again, for my question, I wasnt discussing casual sex. I was referring to couples who are actively using contraceptive because they have both made a conscious decision that they do not want children and whether or not the current options available to those couples are fair or not.
Personally I think how things are at present is somewhat sexist, but that being said, I could see any attempt to make things more equal would ultimately be abused. We would end up having to have legal contracts informing our spouses that we were pregnant and whether or not both parents wanted to continue the pregnancy otherwise theres the potential for some men to claim they were never informed.