The Never Ending Money Debate
Okay so I realize that I’m jumping all over the place with my blogging habits, but as I’m sure is the case with many of the relationships that we discuss on this site, MONEY and who is responsible for paying for what seems to be one of the primary sources of all evil in my relationship, and I’m curious to know how the rest of you handle it.
DF thinks that EVERYTHING we do should be split 50 / 50 between him and I. I disagree, because first of all, DF makes more than four times what I do annually (and I am professionally employed and DO earn a pretty decent living), and second, SD is HIS DAUGHTER, and it is not MY RESPONSIBILITY to provide for her financially. DF is also fully aware that I am running on a very tight budget, and knows that I am burdened with an excessive amount of debt that I am still trying to dig out from under as a result of my divorce. I am also still covering a mortgage on a house that I no longer live in (because I moved in with DF) but can't sell. This has been a constant ongoing issue, since DF seems to think that I should be paying for exactly HALF of all of our family outings. Keep in mind that I do not have children, and almost NONE of these “family outings” are activities that I would be participating in if not for DF and SD, but they WOULD however continue to participate in them either with or without me.
For example: Last year DF invited me to join him and SD on their Disney trip. This trip is something that they had planned prior to DF and I being in a relationship, but I thought it was very nice of them to include me since we were very seriously involved by the time the trip was taking place. Actually, it was SD who absolutely INSISTED that I be included, to the point that she was refusing to go on the trip without me, because it just wouldn’t be fun unless I were there (awww bless her!). DF’s first suggestion about how we should cover the cost of the trip was that he and I should split everything right down the middle. I found this absolutely ludicrous, because if the two of them would have gone to Disney without me I wouldn’t have been expected to contribute financially to cover SD’s portion, so why am I now expected to share this expense just because I’m tagging along? I think that at most I should have been asked to pay for ONE THIRD of the trip, since DF would have been required to pay for himself and SD with or without my attendance. And really, shouldn’t he in good taste have offered to pay for me is well, since THEY invited ME to go, he knows that I’m broke, I know that he’s not, and he knew I had absolutely no desire to go to Disney beyond the fact that SD was absolutely devastated by the idea that I might not go?
The cruise battle that has never really been resolved: DF and I recently went on a cruise with my family (SD did not attend), and I am fortunate enough to be blessed with a rather wealthy relative who paid for everyone in the immediate family (almost 30 people) to take this trip. DF was responsible to pay for his own ticket, since he will not be considered immediate family until we are married, but my uncle was generous enough to pay his deposit for him. The individual family members were required to cover the cost of their own airfare. So my cruise was paid for, I split the remaining cost of DF’s cruise with him (because he kept reminding me that the cost of this trip wasn’t in his budget and he was only going to make me happy), and he and I each covered our own airfare to get to the port. When we boarded we were required to put up a credit card to cover all purchases made while on the ship. DF readily offered his up (we could only have one credit card per room), and said that we would split the cost of incidentals up when we got home. Of course I didn’t realize at the time that DF intended to split those costs right down the middle – including two very expensive watches that HE bought (one for himself and one for me, he picked them both out without my knowledge and presented mine to me as a GIFT), spa services (for him only, I declined to participate in the spa day because I can’t afford that, and told him up front WHY I wasn’t going to the spa with him that day – but do you think he offered to cover the cost of my massage? Yeah NO!), specialty drinks (also for him, personally those drinks are way too sweet for my pallet and at $16 each, no thank you I’ll stay sober), and umpteen souvenirs that HE chose for SD. Our last day on the ship we were supplied with our copy of the breakdown that was charged to his credit card, to the tune of $6,400, and DF looked at me in all seriousness and said “so you’ll just write me a check for your HALF when we get home then?”. OMG WHAT?!?!?!?!?!? Upon our return home he wouldn’t stop harping about when he was going to get my half of the money, so I sat down one night, deducted everything that was HIS cost alone, and split the $600 that remained down the middle. I then told him to deduct the $300 that I owed him from the $450 that he owed ME for SD’s Christmas gifts that I had purchased. I never got my $150 (which I really wasn’t looking for anyway, I have no desire to nickel and dime him to death the way he does me), but he did let the matter drop after that, although he still manages to give off the impression that he somehow thinks I screwed him out of $3,200.
Household Expenses: When I moved in with DF and SD, we agreed that he would cover the mortgage and I would cover utilities and groceries. I know it seems like I got a really good deal in that arrangement, but the utilities happen to be out of control thanks to FIVE flat screens that blare non-stop (why a household of three needs FIVE televisions is beyond me), lights that need to stay on 24 / 7 because SD is afraid of the dark, and a thermostat that needs to be set to tropical temperatures because SD chooses to lounge around the house in shorts and a tank top even though it’s winter time. My grocery bill has also quadrupled because SD is such a picky eater. $200 - $250 per week for a family of three; am I wrong that this is excessive??? Recently DF suggested that we should be splitting the cost of the mortgage, since I DO live there after all. I told him to put my name on the house (which he has already made it clear that he never intends to do, now or even after we’re married) and then we can talk about it, but I’m certainly not going to be contributing to the equity of a home when I will NEVER see a return on that investment.
Why this is coming up today: DF and I have been in counseling for the last few months (his idea), and this counseling is being run through my insurance because mine covers it while his does not. Well I received a call today informing me that effective this year my insurance benefits have changed and going forward only 50% of the cost will be covered by insurance, which means that every time we see the counselor our out of pocket expense will be $60. I called DF to discuss this change and whether or not we wanted to continue counseling, with him knowing full well that I don’t have the extra money in my budget to pay for this. DF’s response was that he could PROBABLY swing covering every other visit, like he was doing me some huge favor by offering to PROBABLY split the cost with me? OF COURSE he should be picking up AT LEAST half, he KNOWS DAMN WELL I can’t afford it, it was HIS idea to go to counseling in the first place, and from what we’ve uncovered so far while working with the therapist the issues that we're dealing with are primarily his!!!
OMG I AM SO MAD I COULD SPIT NAILS RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!
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Hi Lady -- I would think you
Hi Lady --
I would think you were living with my ex narcissistic husband if your ages weren't so much different, and oh, I don't have a daughter, haha.
Um, I think you need to RUN! RUN AWAY! Don't look back. Warning bells are ringing, red flags are waving -- get the heck out of Dodge for your own sanity and happiness. He sounds like an unreasonable, selfish prick, and he'll take you for everything he can get from you without giving anything in return.
Not trying to be mean, but really, I've been there and done that. RUN.
Oh holy bejeezuz woman!! I
Oh holy bejeezuz woman!! I would be moving back into my own lovely home and telling him to deal with his own insane bills himself and when He wants to pay for the counseling HE needs, I Might be sweet enough to go with him. This man is taking advantage of you hard core. You should not be paying for anything for SD - you aren't married, she's not your kid. Does he take you on dates and ask you to go Dutch?? I'd rip his freaking face off. If I were paying the heating bill, I'd be controlling the thermostat. You're paying for food? Who gives a rat if she's a picky eater - she eats what you buy or she doesn't eat at home and Daaaddddddyyyy can go take her out and pay for all of it himself. He won't put your name on the house Ever? Even when you're married?
What exactly is this man giving You except expense and grief and guilt? Your choice to stay with him or not, but I sure as hell wouldn't be living with someone that treated me like this particularly when I had a house of my own to go to.
^^^^^^^^ all of these!!!! Oh
^^^^^^^^ all of these!!!!
Oh my goodness, he does not sound nice AT ALL!
In fact, you are letting yourself be treated a lot like you were by the ex boyfriend convict you blogged about!
Either get things to change to be fair NOW or get out of there! At the very least, do not marry this man!
Yeah, I'm sorry, but it
Yeah, I'm sorry, but it doesn't sound good. He does not sound like a decent person. My DH can be a real jerk, but he is fair when it comes to the money. I do not pay a penny toward SD20, and right from the beginning I paid 1/3 of bills since he makes double my salary.
If your DF didn't have any money, then I can see if he were to try to take advantage a little of things and insist on splitting bills down the middle, but your cruise would have been a dealbreaker for me! You handled that brilliantly, but the principle behind it is unbelievable.
I guess it comes down to how much your DF values you. If he really wants you in his life, then he has to be willing to make changes. Come up with a fair budget, and if he doesn't like it, then walk. I've read everywhere that financial issues cause the most problems in relationships, regardless if there are kids and previous marriages involved, so this isn't something to take lightly.
So what keeps you there?
So what keeps you there?
What keeps me there is that
What keeps me there is that up until recently we had a GREAT relationship! The first year and a half was amazing, and I just keep thinking there has to be a way to get that back? These are all recent issues that have developed, since we got engaged and moved in together, and I keep hoping that things will go back to normal? Now I'm starting to wonder if that ever was normal - maybe I just didn't see it before because we were maintaining completely separate households. DF used to treat me like a queen! Now he buys me an expensive watch (that I didn't need NOR did I ask for) and then turns around a couple of days later and hands me a bill for half of it? WTF?!?!?!
I am also extremely (understatement) attached to his daughter. If not for her I would have walked months ago, when these issues first started popping up. I refuse to walk away from her until I'm SURE that there isn't a way for us to work this out - it seems ridiculous to me that MONEY should be a deal breaker in a relationship - it's just not that important to me!
Control freaks usually are
Control freaks usually are good at hiding it until they have you completely ensnared.
^This
^This
Oh hun, I quite rarely advise
Oh hun, I quite rarely advise anyone to leave their significant other, but really this is too much. After writing all this out for yourself, can't you see the litany of wrongdoings? I'm sure counseling is revealing his deeply misguided sense of equality. While he may need to explore this further with a counselor HE can pay for, what he has already done is just inexcusable. Personally, I feel that anyone who tries to screw me out of my hard-earned money is not worth the ground I spit on. If you stay with this man, it's very likely that he will continue with this kind of behavior and take it even further. And for the love of God do not get pregnant. Please get out while you can.
I do see the litany of
I do see the litany of wrongdoings, but I also know that this is a summary of a few specific events that have occurred over a two year span - but it DOES look really bad when you list them all out.
Personally I think getting pregnant is the golden ticket with this guy, which is probably why BM did it on the sly. He's still footing the bill for her extravagant lifestyle (under the guise of doing what he has to do for his DAUGHTER). But it is very interesting that he has no issue shelling out the full cost for BOTH of them to participate in a mother / daughter pilates class that SD was in no way interested in, but then has the balls to ask me for half the money when he takes SD to Disney? Pfft!!!
I am going to be honest with
I am going to be honest with you. It seems he cares much more about your money than he does you.
Tis is not a normal situation. He does not approach this with a normal attitude. Paying your legitimate share? Sure. What he wants you to do-this is above and beyond what normal people expect.
You need to be very wary of this dynamic. That SD that you love so much- What if you are expected to pay half of he very expensive car? Or her college education? Would you say no, even though you are letting him set the precedent now?
And what if you lost your job-what do you think he would do? I don't think this is going to end well.
Thank you for your input
Thank you for your input ladies, and trust me you aren't telling me anything that I haven't already heard (anytime I tell anyone about the financial stunts he tries to pull they think he's a complete jackass) or even thought myself.
He does foot the bill probably three of every four times that we go out, but he complains about doing so and makes comments about how I should be paying for more, like HALF. Well I'm sorry, as long as there are THREE of us in this relationship I am not paying HALF!
DF was screwed royally in BOTH of his previous divorces, and yes he is definitely making sure that he protects himself this time. I have no issue with that, as I was the one who was screwed royally in my own divorce, and will make sure that I am protected as well should this relationship not work out. But this isn't even fair!!! He expects me to pay half for a lifestyle that I clearly can't afford, and when I suggest that we reduce overall expenses to a level that I CAN afford to pay half of he won't hear of it. After all, it wouldn't be fair for us to deprive SD of such essentials as American Girl dolls and Disney trips simply because I can't afford them.
I understand and appeciate everyone's anger on my behalf, but what I am trying to figure out is how everyone else does this. I am busting my ass trying to contribute the best I can, and he seems to think I'm some kind of gold digger!
It's infuriating!!!
Some couples agree to pay
Some couples agree to pay bills on a percentage based on how much each person makes.
For some reason, I don't think your SO would go for that....sounds like MONEY is more important than YOU. Are you willing to live the rest of your life that way?
I have suggested the
I have suggested the percentage split, and he thought that was laughable. NO I am not willing to live the rest of my life this way.
This changes NOW. I'm tired of being broke and eating through what little savings I have trying to keep up with them.
To answer your question of
To answer your question of what everyone else does..........
We combine our finances (I know a lot of people dont' agree). We are married and do not try to divy out every single expense we pay for. We agree and discuss and mutally deside how money will be spent. I did not marry him to gain finacial gains and I married him dispite credit problems and large amounts of debt (on both our ends)
Life is not fair. Sometimes my kids and previous decisions cost us more than either of us are happy with, sometimes it's his. THat's the way it goes. It't what we signed up for when we married. Life and close family relationships can not be split like a business deal. Does he want a life partner or a business partner to help finance his life?
I think he's trying to make
I think he's trying to make you feel like you are a "gold digger" because he is GASLIGHTING you.
You see it isn't fair, and all of us here replying to your blog see it isn't fair. The problem is, he knows he is not being fair but HE DOESN'T CARE.
Ok, if you aren't a couple that pools your money, fine. But if that is the case, if you want to be fair (and he makes more than 4x what you make), you pay 1/4 of all household expenses AFTER his daughter's costs are taken out and he pays 3/4 of all household expenses PLUS 100% of his daughter's expenses.
I agree with this. I think he
I agree with this. I think he knows damn well what he is doing, and he is sure you will go along with it.
I get that he was screwed
I get that he was screwed over before and that sucks, but you're not his client - he doesn't get to try to make up for his losses in previous business deals by tacking that on to your bill. This is supposed to be a partnership. You need to tell him flat out that you simply can not afford this lifestyle, tell him what you can pay and if he doesn't like it and refuses, you need to move out. He's protecting himself at your detriment and you need to protect yourself because he obviously has no interest in doing that.
Pay towards the utilities what you paid when you were on your own, pay towards groceries what you paid when on your own. If you go out, you pay for you and that's it. If you can't afford the outing, don't go and poor sad, abused little SD will just have to lump not having you there. Don't go on trips with them if he expects you to pay half. If he's sticking you with his cost on trips with your family, don't invite him. If he doesn't want to pay for the counseling, stop going. If he's going to be unreasonable and pig-headed about money, unfortunately, you're going to have to be just as pig-headed and keep doing what you did with the ridiculous bill on the cruise ship.
I hope that is more helpful, but I have to maintain, if he thinks That poorly of you, he's trying to make you feel bad or is accusing you of screwing him out of money on the cruise (when you helped pay for His ticket???), when he's Refusing to keep spending to a more reasonable level, you need to move out until you two can come to an equitable solution for you BOTH. I would be concerned about where he expects the finances to stand after a marriage - will he expect help with CS? Who will be the beneficiary in his will? Of his life support policy? Of the house he refuses to put your name on?
You are clearly very attached to this man but from what you're saying, I wonder at his actual attachment to you if he's willing to be so unreasonable about money with you and have such unreasonable expectations. He and his daughter have exponentially increased your outgoing funds and he must know that you are still in financial distress from your own divorce. I am concerned why he doesn't seem to care about this and only cares about SD getting whatever she wants at your expense.
I don't blame you for being
I don't blame you for being upset. I would have walked out after the disney thing, or at the very least told him "Sorry, I can't afford that and won't be going".
I think you need to tell him that you honestly can not afford to live the standard of living he can and that you will be moving back to your own home. Get a roommate, another job, so what you need to do to put yourself back on your own.
I don't think he is being fair in any way with his expectations. I'm betting he'd sing a different tune if you had 4 kids of your own to add to the household expenses? Would he still want to split things 50/50?
I think a fairer arrangement might be to take all your expenses and split them based on a percentage ratio of income with some adjustment of course to reflect him bringing two people to the arrangement and you only one.
And I'm with you on the mortgage. If he doesn't want to give you equity I wouldn't contribute. What does he think you'll do with any proceeds/equity when you do sell your home?
Honestly he sounds like he is taking advantage of you.
SO makes 3 times what I do,
SO makes 3 times what I do, even though i am also a professional and make a decent living. I would be just fine on my own and have been.
I recently adjusted the living expenses contributions. He does pay more, but he really could do more than he does.
I cannot imagine paying anything towards skids, towards outings that i would not go on otherwise, or towards vacations that include the skids. Basically, when the skids are included, he takes up the whole bill unless I offer to pay my own way.
SO did this to me with counseling too. He stuck ME with the bill and it was $100 bucks each time. He originally said we'd split it, but after 2 visits, i could tell he didn't like the way it was going so he stuck me with the bills. Basically, we stopped going anyway because he said it wasn't doing anything. it was, but he didn't like that the counselor saw through his guilty daddy behaviors.
All I can say is that he is not being reasonable with your finances. It is YOUR money, if you don't want to pay for something, DON'T.
If he and two other people are raising the utilities, tell him you are not contributing more than your fair share. Since I pay stuff around my house, I turn down the thermostat and make it known not to touch it, i turn off the tv's that aren't being used. Financial contribution is power. Don't let the run over you. Oh and I NEVER buy groceries for his kids. I do buy for he and I and he often pays for us to go out to eat, so it evens out.
I like this. He SHOULD be
I like this. He SHOULD be paying for 100% of SD, and maybe if he has to start doing that he'll understand how much I really WAS doing. I guess that's my issue more than anything, it's not WHAT I do but it's the fact that it's not appreciated and even when I do it he still acts like I'm not contributing anything.
I got this, and I'll get through it. Either he will start being reasonable or I will be gone - that choice is his.
its not your responsibility
its not your responsibility to contribute anything to HIS child. You are only responsible for your share of the finances.
I don't think he is being
I don't think he is being fair. I broke up with my BF once because of money, he moved out. We got back together and now he pays for more things. I don't make as much money as he does. We keep everything seperate and have said when/if we get married we will continue to do so. Mainly I want it that way. I like having my own money. I don't want to have to answer or feel quilty if I buy myself something every once in a while. His lawyer also advised us to keep our finance seperate because the BM took him to court last year and he had to show bank statments, tax returns and stuff. I don't want that bitch to see what I make or where I spend my money!! I would tell him that he can either make you stop paying for his ex-wifes screw ups or you are moving back to your place. It's not fair to you. The cruise would have done me in. You handled it great, but the resentment is still there and it would be for me too.
You asked what others are
You asked what others are doing, so here's mine:
I make less than half what SO makes. I was single and raised my sons on my own for 10 years prior, they were out on their own before we got together. I payed my mortgage and all of my own bills, without any SS or CS. He was newly divorced and had three kids 50/50. He payed no SS or CS. His wife kept/lost their house. Initially, we rented a house together (mine was too small for all of us). I still payed all of my own bills, he handled rent on bigger house. Because is credit was ruined in divorce, I also took on utilities (phone, gas, cable, internet) and his car insurance. I also did all of the major shopping (groceries, housewares). Neither one of us have car payments. I was paying out more than I did when on my own, but didn't mind helping out.
He was complaining about money being tight with the large rent, so I started shopping for houses. Found one and bought it (all my name because of his credit, but he contributed half of the down). We still have pretty much the same arrangement, but instead of the rent he's paying this new mortgage (which is half what rent was). We also only have one skid 50/50 now, as the others are over 18. I'm still paying everything I was before, plus some. Now I have credit card debt for fixing up new house, another water bill, and another trash bill (those were included on rental house), and higher utilities for larger house.
We each pay for our own car maintenance and stuff like that. I pay for gifts to my sons, he pays for his (but I usually have to buy them on my credit card and he pays me back in cash). I also buy gifts for his oldest daughter, fiance, and their son (I like them). He has never asked me to chip in on trips or dinners out, but if they require going on a charge card, I do it and he pays me back.
Lately, I've been feeling like I'm paying more than my fair share. Especially considering that I make less than him. Yet I'm the one with good credit. He doesn't even have a bank account and lives check to check. I have a checking and small savings. He gets paid every Friday, which is more than I get on my every-other-week check, yet by Thursday he's asking if I have any cash he can borrow for gas money. Whenever he borrows, he always pays me back the next payday, but it still bugs.
I sometimes wonder if I should bring it up, and come up with a more concrete and equitable arrangement. At the very least, I'm wondering if I should ask where all of his money goes, since I'm paying out so much more than he and still have to spot him some cash each week.
Interesting you should say
Interesting you should say that. Of course all of this came up in our session tonight, and our counselor ended up asking him if he was looking for an investor or a wife. She then asked if it would be okay with both of us is DF came on his own next week, because she wants to further discuss why he is using his finances to create all of these "emotional barriers".
My only question was if he would be paying for that session on his own, or would I still be expected to fork over "my half".........
If he's like my ex, he won't
If he's like my ex, he won't go by himself because he doesn't believe he's the one with the problem.
wow, I think you are with my
wow, I think you are with my ex. And we do have a daughter 7, But he actually moved in with her and is renting our marital home out. But yeah. He made double me, but we had to split everything 50/50 Even his cc bills when he decided WE needed new tools for the house or 50 dollar steaks for dinner (for me to cook of course)
wow! just wow!