She went to counseling
I went to my counseling appointment Thursday and my wife was waiting for me in the office. The first part of our meeting was our counselor explaining to my wife how this works and getting her back ground information. The second half was our counselor asking my wife to explain what is going on from her view. She told the counselor that she is tired of feeling overwhelmed when my kids are there. She told the counselor they aren't bad kids it just upsets the dynamic of our home. She complained that her kids don't like mine and that they shouldn't be unhappy in their home. It was a long drug out discussion but she doesn't consider my kids as living there or our home their home. I told her absolutely this is their home and we argued about it. Our counselor ended the discussion and said we would cone back to it. We didn't. She complained about the money I spend on my ex wife. I explained the money is for my kids and that the money is spent on them. I don't care if my ex benefits as long as my kids do. My wife wants me to sell the house they are living in or charge them rent. Neither is going to happen and i told her so. She was home Thursday night when I got there and she had cooked dinner for everyone even though it was my night. I made sure my kids cleaned up dinner dishes, the living areas and their rooms. I sat all the kids down and talked to them about respecting each other and their home. I went over the new rules and punishments assigned to those new rules and asked my wife to put a print out on the fridge so they could be reminded. When I got up Friday my step daughter had left her art supplies all over the kitchen table from the night before after our talk. I watched my wife clean it up and not punish her daughter. I asked her if she wanted me to grounded her dd from her art supplies for 3 days like the rules state or was she. She got mad at me and didn't punish her daughter. I took the new rules down off the fridge and threw them away. I guess we can discuss this in counseling.
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Well. He pays a small portion
Well. He pays a small portion of the private school bill for his skids upfront...what he can afford at that moment to defray the cost...and then she makes the monthly payments. He doesn't "pay for them to go to private school."
I do think the finances is taking an emotional toll. Ex-wife gets a full say in how things run in her own home, gets an open wallet for whatever "the kids" need...and gets to make all the rules while not ever having to have someone else's kids in her home...after cheating on Gunner with his friend. Meanwhile, current wife has to deal with / manage 5 kids all summer, contributes to the food and other necessities for the household...all while trying to build a home with this man.
I don't think this means Gunner's kids should go anywhere...not at all. But man, he could certainly be 1000% more understanding and sensitive to his wife's emotional needs. Maybe 5000%.
And before you say: "Would you pay for YOUR skids to have a better life than..." the answer is yes. I would and I do. In fact, I don't have children, in part, because we can't afford to and cover expenses for the current children...who I do a lot for financially.
From what I've read, she's
From what I've read, she's never asked that he stop paying for his kids school. She's asked that the BM...a grown-ass woman, I might add, who likely got a lot in the divorce, be required to stand on her own two feet a bit more. That's not an unreasonable request.
If his wife couldn't accept
If his wife couldn't accept things as they were, she should not have married him. No one forced her to join his harem.
"She's asked that the BM...a
"She's asked that the BM...a grown-ass woman, I might add, who likely got a lot in the divorce, be required to stand on her own two feet a bit more. That's not an unreasonable request."
That's funny when you consider the fact that he pays her student loans, he helps pay for her kids to attend a private school.
If he made his wife- a grown ass woman, stand on her own two feet a bit more, she would not be able to provide her kids with their current lifestyle. He makes all of that possible, not her.
Again, I have asked Gunner in
Again, I have asked Gunner in the past and never gotten an answer - how did your wife afford to live and pay for her kids before you married? You haven't been married that long and the kids are near-teens...so she must have figured it out somehow. Sounds to me like she's perfectly fine standing on her own two feet - something his ex has never had to do, despite being the one to leave/cheat. Ex got assets in the divorce and now she's getting high CS and she works and somehow she still can't make ends meet without significant extras? Seems very fishy. Current wife gets nothing for her kids from her ex and made it work somehow before meeting Gunner. I can see how your wife would feel that the universe is unfair, Gunner...not that it's your job to right it for her...but a tad more empathy to her feelings and perspective couldn't hurt.
I could also see how current wife would feel it's not fair to expect her to pitch in equally to bills for a house that you own and maintain for the good of your kids. You moved her in and adapted her to YOUR lifestyle...you ordered it up from the menu...and now you're handing her the check because you don't like her recent actions. Once again, I have asked before and not gotten a response. Is she on the deed to the home? Is it her home, too? Or would you be expecting her to contribute to a house she doesn't own? Is there an end date on all of this that you could share with her? Assure her that you are serious about building a home with her but need to focus on both her and your kids until they are...20? 21? When I've felt overwhelmed by all the nonsense associated with blended family life, my DH has reassured me that he's launching the kids...and then it's 100% us and our home. That gives me a lot of comfort. Maybe your wife looks at the way you parent/provide and is realizing there's no end in sight, and that has her panicking?
I'm sure she earns enough to
I'm sure she earns enough to support herself and her children,just not in their current lifestyle.
If she could afford their current lifestyle on her own, she wouldn't have blinked an eye when he threatened to change their financial arrangements.
He would be a damn fool to add her to the deed of his home. How many times have SMs been advised not to make that mistake even when their husbands are contributing to the household finances? Why would it be different now?
This is exactly my point. He
This is exactly my point. He brought her into this lifestyle...and now wants her to pay for it. That's unfair to her.
She should have thought about
She should have thought about that before she started acting like an ass toward his children.
Her wanting him to change the manner in which he provides for his children now that they are married, is unfair to him.
So we'll never agree. You're
So we'll never agree. You're 100% convinced that this woman is pure evil who is only interested in Gunner's money...I think it may be more nuanced than that.
I see a woman who was pushed to a breaking point...whether by her own inability to communicate effectively or her husband's inability to listen and empathize or some of both...doesn't really matter. I assumed Gunner was genuine when he came here asking for a second perspective on what was going wrong in his marriage and have consistently responded with some ideas about how his wife might be feeling, trying to give him this perspective. I have also admitted frequently that her actions have been unreasonable...though also understandable.
You, on the other hand, are convinced that Gunner is the Christ incarnate and his wife is a manipulative, scheming, greedy succubus. OK. Agree to disagree?
If his wife doesn't like what
If his wife doesn't like what he does with his money, she should just walk away.
I wonder why she didn't object to the extra money going to BM before they got married?
Well, she's not THAT young if
Well, she's not THAT young if she has 3 pre-teen / teen children...
In comparison the exW has a
In comparison the exW has a way sweeter deal. You're right that Gunner is treating his wife like one of the children while the ex gets a pass on everything, cheating, free rent, kid free summers, extra money. ExW's own money probably gets to be spent on those B@@BS that SA keeps talking about since all exW's other expenses are paid for. Talk about rewarding bad behavior! Sounds like exW benefits from the set up way more than skids do.
Current wife gets all the responsibility of her own life and has to maintain for the ruins of Gunners first family. In comparison current wife gets the short end of the stick.
Here's a suggestion Gunner, treat your current wife better than your ex if you want to keep her.
THIS I wonder how the money
THIS
I wonder how the money thing is impacting Gunner? He is helping to support a deadbeat's kids. His wife should be saying thank you for picking up my ex's slack.
Where do you even get this
Where do you even get this from? They split expenses...he pays more because he makes more. Many first marriages work this way...why can't a second marriage work this way? She's signed a pre-nup...she's going to counseling with him. And he doesn't pay for her kids to go to private school. He pays a moderate down payment/deposit at the beginning of the year and she makes the monthly payments...according to Gunner. Maybe you should give it up. "It" being your interpretation of events despite all evidence to the contrary. Or do you just like to see marriages fail?
Maybe money means more than money to some people. If this were my situation, I'd feel like my DH was still overly-invested in another woman's well-being. His first wife cheated on him...so I'd feel like he still cared for her. This would wreck me emotionally, and it would have very little to do with the money.
Gunner. What do you want your wife to do? She's being honest with you about how she feels and what she needs. Why would you afford your ex-wife who cheated on you greater freedom and support than your current wife and expect your current wife to NOT feel hurt by that? Do you have an exit plan with ex-wife? i.e. when kids become adults...does she then have to pay you for the home she lives in or move out? Or will you then say that your grown kids and grandkids shouldn't lose their childhood home just because their mom/grandma can't afford it? Do you want your current wife to get a second or a third job to be able to contribute equally to the lifestyle that YOU'VE established? Or would that make you start to resent the time she spends outside the home?
In my opinion, you've put your wife in a no-win situation and have done very little to try to see her side of things. Being a stepmom is hard. It's super, super, super hard. Anyone on this board who says otherwise is lying to you. It's hard even in the best of circumstances. Do you want to try to understand that reality at all?
I think you seem like a good dad...you want to be a good provider. There's nothing wrong with that at all...and by no means do I think your kids should forego their visitation. But the current set-up is destroying your marriage. What are you going to do about that?
Her ex pays nothing. If the
Her ex pays nothing.
If the money he gives his ex is having sich an emotional impact, why did she marry him? Unless he keep that information from her, she dead wrong for trying to make him change something that doesn't have a negative financial impact on their home.
Her greed is destroying their marriage. I wonder what she plans to do about that?
I don't see greed. I see a
I don't see greed. I see a woman who is disillusioned now that she's realized she's not an equal partner in this marriage and gets treated like another kid in her own home. She is going to counseling, as he requested, and trying to be open and honest with him. I think that's a good start.
He has the power in this situation, so it's going to be on him to figure out a reasonable compromise if he wants his marriage to last. So far, I don't see any of that...just a bunch of 'my way or the highway' talk.
Maybe if he could just give her an exit date? Like - "Hey, I know it's rough on you to see me supporting another woman, but the kids will be grown in five years, and then it will be our turn to build our household..."
Power doesn't necessarily =
Power doesn't necessarily = money.
He has the power because she's the one requesting a change to the status quo...because he's male...because he clearly has no problem throwing his weight around...because of personality differences...and because of the money.
I'm not downplaying the importance of money at all. I am simply objecting to elevating its importance above all else...to the point of insisting that it's the ONLY factor at play in this relationship...and pointing out that money often means more than money and has emotional implications. This is not a novel idea.
Many first marriages fail because of disagreements about money...how it's spent, who spends more of it, who saves more of it. Arguments about money top nearly every list of marital fights in first marriages. We don't automatically assume these women/men in first marriages are "greedy" or "entitled" because they're fighting about household finances...nor do we insist that finances in a first marriage be absolutely equitable in every way. We understand that couples fight about money, and that money is mostly an emotional issue. We don't chastise these couples for disagreeing about what's important.
So why are people insisting that the finance issue be so black-and-white in this relationship? It makes no sense at all. Wouldn't it, in fact, make sense that the issue is compounded in a second marriage and even more fraught with land mines? Why do certain members here have to make the wife out to be a villain in order to give advice...could it not be that she's just a person trying to navigate a difficult marriage set-up? That she doesn't just adore the fact that HER husband regularly sends money to an ex...well, that's just not that surprising, frankly.
Perhaps Gunner does use money as a weapon / power play in this marriage. Maybe he did lure and woo her with this sense of security. Women want security...that doesn't make her evil. It makes her normal. Now...he's telling her that because she didn't want to go on vacation with his kids, because she admitted to feeling overwhelmed by it all, and because she wouldn't fork over half of the vacation fund for a trip she wasn't taking...he's changing the established financial arrangement between the two of them...but he's not changing a single thing about what he does. That sounds like punishment for 'misbehavior' to me. And everyone thinks that seems perfectly fair? No wonder she went ballistic.
If all of that were true she
If all of that were true she would have never presented him with an ultimatum that included paying off her loans and helping to provide for her kids.
The ultimatum revealed her true motivation. Heck, she didn't even agree to go to counseling until she realized he wasn't going to play her chase after me games.
See my response above. He
See my response above.
He gave an ultimatum first by threatening to change their established financial arrangement without warning. What's his "true motivation" for doing this if he had no problem with the arrangement before, loves his wife, and can afford it without any trouble? Because she showed him that she's struggling with her role as a SM? Because she wanted to sit out on vacation? So...it's a punishment for behavior that he doesn't like, right?
Sounds super loving and healthy.
Exactly Her actions caused
Exactly
Her actions caused him to rethink and change how finances are handled in their home.
That was funny. But she does
That was funny. But she does have a point
.
The info about lots of money
The info about lots of money going to the second house was not withheld. It has been known since pretty much the first post. He never hid it.
In his very first mention of
In his very first mention of it he states "supporting two households" and other housing related details. He was never hiding it from ST. He was mentioning details as they seemed relevant. As we all do.
See my post below where I've pasted his May 3rd comment that was 12 threads ago.
" Submitted by Gunner on Wed,
" Submitted by Gunner on Wed, 05/03/2017 - 1:00pm.
I listen I just don't always agree with her. She doesn't want me to pay anything above child support for my kids but I do because their mom can't afford it. They wouldn't be able to go to private school and live in a great neighborhood or play all their activities ect. My wife gets really upset but it doesn't affect our home. We have a nice home in a great neighborhood and her children also attend the same private school and have activities. I don't have as much spending money due to supporting 2 households but we do fine and that is what matters to me. I listen and I hear her I just disagree."
This ^^^ mention was 12 threads ago and over a month old.
I think a solid majority of us have advised him this money outflow can be a real problem for any loving and sincere wife. Yes, they probably should work on that issue together. But so far his wife has dodged and weaved with adolescent biology, 9th grade math, backpacks, and breakfast ad infinitum. She has not given him a real reason to discuss the issue of the money as she has been throwing everything else in the book at him. I think he probably could get into a real conversation with her that issue and listen and be open and respectful of her feelings if she hadn't spent the last 6 weeks making sure he shut down more and more with her ridiculous maneuvers to get what she wants and show him who's the boss. She has a lot of work to do on her marriage before she can expect him to listen with an open heart on that. She has made sure he has reason to suspect her motives so why would he be open on that topic at this point. But he has certainly not hidden this issue from the ST peanut gallery.
THIS Gunner, during that
THIS
Gunner, during that session, your wife told you everything you needed to know. She and her kids need to go.
Did you share this with your brother, SIL and the nen's board you post on? Mif so, what did they say? I can't imagine anyone encouraging you to try and work this out. The woman has made it crystal clear that she wants your kids gone she that she can and her kids will benefit from you and your money,
Please don't make the classic dumb man move of getting this woman pregnant.
Glad to hear you both went to
Glad to hear you both went to therapy. Keep it up and you may well find rainbows at the end of your storm.
Working with a marriage
Working with a marriage counselor can be hard but also very helpful. Please keep an open mind when you walk in but yes you have every right to say no. Sometimes you guys will plan to come back to something and it won’t happen because time just runs out. Try to save it for the next time.
Working with only one side of the story, I am surprised by this woman’s actions. My partner’s kids are always going to come first to him. That's the fact of life. That is his first priority just like yours should be to your children but that being said hers will always be first to her. That does not mean that she has any right to demand your children not be at your joint home. The exception to this is if the children have been violent or destructive beyond being playful kids. Then I could understand her reluctance. I’m assuming that is not the case since you haven’t stated anything to that fact.
Truly with the one side you’ve offered it seems like this women is expecting you to forget your children and just shift everything to hers for whatever reason. Stand firm. She can either learn to deal with it or she can leave. There are many people out there who don’t like their step children for whatever reason and some of them have very good reasons. These people can still make things work with their spouse though it can be a challenge.
If she refuses to parent her children the way you’ve both agreed then she needs to understand that she is responsible for all their actions. Her kid doesn’t clean up like you guys agreed she cleans up for them but it’s going to become a petty argument quick because your both going to be looking for something to get onto the other about.
Good luck.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Gunner, These are good steps!
Gunner,
These are good steps! She went to counseling. She came home and cooked dinner. She is trying. She is not doing it perfectly. Neither are you. But you are both doing something different to try to make things better.
Here's the dynamic I see at play here:
Your wife wants to feel like your number 1 priority. Your kids and your ex-wife are closely tied in her mind. They benefit from you at least as much as she and her kids do if not more, definitely in her mind and objectively as well. Your XW gets a free home plus extra money to spend on the kids. You probably pay 100% of their expenses, so your XW uses her salary to take care of herself.
From your wife's perspective, when you pay her children's private school tuition you are doing that for HER. You are showing you love her. You are making her and the children she loves a priority. When you pay her student loans, you are taking care of her and making things more fair between her and your XW. She thinks your currency is money and that's how you show love. So yes, she is going to feel threatened by you spending money on your XW. She is going to resent that. I am not convinced she married you for money, but I do think the money you spend is making her resentful and feel less loved.
When you give extra money beyond child support AND a free home to your ex-wife, she sees a woman who left you getting her entire life paid for. Your XW/BM only has to pay for her own personal expenses, groceries and the like. But she also has child support to cover that for the kids at least. Your XW is not contributing much if anything to the kids expenses at all.
I understand why you are taking care of your children this way. I also understand why your wife feels like a second class citizen because of it. Can you understand it?
On your part I hear you listening to your wife's feelings about the situation, even if you aren't willing yet to change things.
Your XW doesn't pay rent and lives in a house you own completely free. Then why should your current wife contribute to the mortgage at your current home? If you make her do that, then she perceives you as taking care of BM more than her. In some relationships money spent is perceived as love expressed. I have a feeling love and money are tied very closely for you and your wife. You talk about loving your children, so of course you spend on them, even if BM benefits.
She does not hate your children, although they certainly have their flaws. She hates how she feels around your children. She resents them because they are the reason you use for paying money to your XW, when she feels that she is less cared for and less loved. It really isn't about your kids exactly, although they are likely not angels either. You are trying to keep things "fair" for her children too, but that really isn't the point for her. Because HER children are tied to her so closely, when she perceives you as picking on them she sees that as yet again HER getting shafted. You want things to be fair between the kids, without seeing how it isn't fair between the wives.
I have a feeling your wife is needing a lot more emotional connection from you than you have been giving and the money is kind of the thing she can identify tangibly as the problem. You both lack the skills for defining how you are actually feeling without resorting to pissy behavior.
I am not saying it is healthy to have money be a love currency. But I have seen it happen and I do think that is what is happening here.
Your wife doesn't feel like you love her as much as you love BM/your kids. That's the real problem. The money is how she thinks you are expressing this to your XW.
100% this. Of course, the
100% this.
Of course, the predictable SM-haters think it's all greed and manipulation. But this is what I've been trying to say.
I would also point out...it's not only your wife who equates money with love/care. Gunner has set up this expectation. For him, he shows love through money...he has made this very clear...but then he expects his wife to totally separate the two when it comes to sending $$$ to his ex. That's going to be hard for her to do.
But I agree...counseling, dinner, family meetings. All good progress. If only you hadn't ruined it by trashing the rules after the first supposed infraction...though, I agree with others that if a parent wants to pick up after their own kids, that's on them. My DH makes up the bed every time SD comes over. I think that's ridiculous...she's 17 and can make up her own bed...and struggles with some laziness already. But he likes to do it and it makes him feel like he's taking care of her...so I keep my trap shut.
Gunner, I am glad to hear she
Gunner, I am glad to hear she showed up for counseling. Very interesting that she was early there after learning you would not wait around for her at dinner. I think it was a good thing you showed her a boundary that night. She is now showing you that she values you after all by being early for the next thing, not to mention her going there at all.
So she clearly feels somewhat on the ropes. Or you could view it as she is learning she values her marriage more than she realized because last week it was all about how you'd never find anyone as good as her and she was running away to the circus.
I think the counselor did not return to the one topic that night because there was a huge truckload of topics tumbling out. You can only go so far in 50 minutes.
Even though things went south pretty quick after the counseling, I am still glad for you that she is choosing to work on things with you in a more mature manner than she has in the past.
About the art supplies...yes, as a matter of fact your wife is going to have to learn that if she wants to get all holier than thou about kid-clutter she is going to have to hold her own kids to the same standards. That's just a "duh." And if it takes a marriage counselor to teach her that, so be it. That is far better than if she never learns it at all.
Absolutely agree that she
Absolutely agree that she showed up early because she saw your boundary on that at dinner! very good point.
And the counselor let that go because there's an elephant in the room about it and that will take multiple sessions and more rapport/trust before it can be addressed. "We can get back to it" does not mean "in this session" necessarily.
No doubt, it will come up again.
Also, allow your W to clean up after her kids. You can also clean up after yours, if you wish. If the parents wish to do all the work for the kids, you each can. I don't recommend it, but if the end result for the other adult in the home is that things are less stressful, then that counts as a win. I don't recommend babying your kids forever, but I would not make a federal case of it. After a while she will get annoyed having to pick up after her kids and she will learn that they are equally as imperfect as yours. Allow her the experience of picking up after them so that she has some eye opening about her own kids. Don't try to control that, just shrug it off if she cleans it up. It's her adding more stress to herself. If you step in, now YOU are the bad guy. If you don't step in, the annoyance becomes about her own child. Allow her to feel that. Don't rub it in and let the focus now become what you did.
Re: "Gunner's wife's
Re: "Gunner's wife's ex-husband pays no child support for his children, and yet some seem to think that Gunner's way of showing love for his wife should be to assist her with her financial obligations."
Certainly not that his way of showing love "SHOULD" be to assist her with her financial obligations... I don't think he should. But I do think that is how she is perceiving his demonstration of love.
My father has a hard time expressing feelings and emotions. But when he misses me or my siblings, he writes us a note in a card and sends a check for $500-$2000. That's his way. I have learned that for him, that is his love. I would rather have more of a connection but for some people providing is their love language.
There's another component of this... I believe the XH to his wife does not pay child support but I am not sure if I have ever heard gunner confirm that or not. If so, then she gets NOTHING from the father of her children. He doesn't help her or them at all.
It would feel terribly unfair to see Gunner's XW living a very nice life at the hands of her XH (Gunner), knowing that her XH provides nothing for HER kids. She would likely perceive her children as getting the short end of the stick, even if it is not Gunner's fault (and it isn't, he's actually stepping up quite well). Feelings don't make sense but they do drive a lot of weird behaviors. I am not saying she is RIGHT to feel that way, but I have a feeling she does.
Also, her kids have no second home as their dad is a deadbeat. She may perceive his kids as having two very nice places to live both paid for by her husband and disrupting what peace is in her home when they arrive, for both her and her kids.
I can see where the resentment comes from. I can even sympathize with it, but I do think she needs to work on it.
It is possible to separate
It is possible to separate caring for the ex with caring for his own kids. Absolutely!
1. He could get work on his skills in expressing love in other ways. This would help with kids and with his wife and in any future relationships, should this one not work out.
2. He could change the agreement with the XW in some token but not trivial way. If the house would rent for $1600 a month, he could ask her to pay $400 a month for her OWN room. That's reasonable, right? Split it in 4 because of three kids plus her and at least then she is paying her OWN expenses.
3. He could acknowledge that it feels unfair to his current wife. He just keeps saying No, I won't change that, I am taking care of my kids. I've never heard him say here that he understands her feelings, agrees that it probably feels unfair to her and wishes it did not hurt her so much. He just digs in his heels. That feels to someone on the receiving end like the other person doesn't care. He doesn't actually have to stop taking care of his kids, no one wants that. But he could give his wife more of his understanding and she may give more of hers.
It isn't about her kids living the life that his kids do. It may be about letting his WIFE lead the life that his XW gets to.
And I am not saying it is RIGHT. But I am saying that would chap my hide big time, as well. I understand it, even if I think there are better ways to handle it.
Both the XW and the W work.
Both the XW and the W work.
I would say he is subsidizing
I would say he is subsidizing the ex-husband's obligations and that is wrong. But I applaud him for stepping up and doing what their own dad won't do.
dup
dup
Precisely. And if I was his
Precisely.
And if I was his current wife, that would grate on me. It would be harder to see his (and BM's) children with as much tolerance and patience.
I don't think W married him only for money, but they may divorce over what money represents.
I still say divorce is the
I still say divorce is the only option, your wife is only going to counseling because she wants you to pay for
Please do your self a favor and stop paying for her, no more Mr Wallet, either she stays cause she loves you or she goes, no more paying her personal debt and study loans and she has to pay 50% of the house hold expenses.
This is the only way you will know for sure if she loves you or your money... do not be fooled about her going for counseling suddenly
Heartily agree. The money
Heartily agree. The money would grind on almost every wife. But she does need to work with him on solving that to joint satisfaction and she does not. Why on earth would op completely give up this item and get nothing in return? That is not how negotiations work and that is not how problem solving works. He has not looked at it from her point of view and why would he? He lives in his own shoes, not hers and she has done more and more off-putting things to simply "win" rather than arrive at mutually satisfying solutions.
Saying his kids don't belong there is really very quite horribly bad. In the face of that, who on earth would also give up making sure they were safe and comfortable at the other house?