Diet as PAS?
Does anyone here have experience with an alienating parent using food to PAS?
Our BM is vegan but calls herself "mostly vegetarian". They don't eat dairy except for eggs and butter and only eat poultry products on holidays. They occasionally eat shellfish. They don't eat any kind of red meat. We are full omnivores.
Due to the distance, we only have SD3 one weekend a month and 4 weeks in the summer (split into 2 week intervals).
When SD is with us, we feed her our food, but because she's not used to it, she is sick 99% of the time with us. DH says she will get used to it and forces her to eat it, which isn't exactly wrong, but she's not here long enough to get used to it. BM refuses to change her eating habits at all.
SD now hates coming here, hates our food and views DH as a monster who just makes her sick (also not wrong). What can we do?
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Maybe it’s just me, but I
Maybe it’s just me, but I wouldn’t make SS eat anything that’s gonna make him sick. Especially if it’s not going to be a permanent change ( and most likely still not then). I understand why your SD doesn’t want to come,I wouldn’t want to come either. Nobody wants to spend weekends or weeks at a time sick because they are being forced to eat something that they aren’t used to.
This isn’t making her eat her veggies, this stuff is genuinely causing problems in her body.
This isnt PAS. This is your DH Not being accepting of her lifestyle (which isn’t necessarily a destructive or bad one). You done have to make separate meals for her but at least provide enough so she doesn’t stare and don’t make her eat meat.
A bit confused
so no animal products other than eggs and poultry on holidays, correct? No dairy at all?
Im gonna say your DH is in the wrong here. It doesn't hurt to cut meat out of your diet sometimes and there are plenty of vegetarian/vegan options for your family to try when the 3 year old is there. My DH lived in Israel for several years and has continued a semi vegetarian diet ever since (20 years-ish). I love chickpeas and tofu if it's done right. Hummus is a joy and there are plenty of Indian (paneer tikka masala is what they serve in heaven) and Chinese restaurants that cater to non meat eaters. Or you could do baked potatoes with vegetarian chili (it's delicious) as an option for the omnivores.
edit: curious, does SD get sick from the random poultry every few months? Maybe you could precook chicken breasts for her and freeze single serving portions of plain (olive oil, salt, pepper) chicken for her if your DH is worried about protein
Apparently SD doesn't eat it.
Apparently SD doesn't eat it. BM doesn't cook it and only eats a small piece to appease relatives.
She'll occasionally eat seafood.
Yes
It is a way to control your household from afar. Extremely common. Probably not a hill worth dying over.
here are the options:
1. PASes out due to the meals
2. Eats a PB&J at your house (until the BM ups the ante and changes rules on PB&J)
3. Or you could cater to her Vegan "lifestyle" and watch the HCBM continually move the goal posts
When the HCBM moves the goal posts then you have confirmation that this is not about "healthy living" but about control.
If you have a HCBM who is intent on PASing out skid, nothing you can do will change that as long as the system favours the golden uterus and views dad as a mean ol' oppressive walking ATM.
I mean, if being a vegetarian
I mean, if being a vegetarian is what is limiting your DH's visitation with his kid, just cook some veggies. Make burgers on the grill and have a Bota burger for SD. It isn't that hard to have some vegetarian options. There a ton of frozen options that you just warm up. Serve all your normal sides and just sub the meat for a fake meat for SD. This seems like such a tiny hill to die on for me but PAS in our situation is pretty extreme.
Right but when the HCBM
starts moving the goal posts as far as diet (and everything else under the sun) is concerned then you have your answer. . .PAS!
Well
Theres not much further she can move the goalpost. No dairy at all and almost no meat. After that you'll have to deprive the kid of water and oxygen.
if the BM
is truly a HCBM, she will FIND a way to move the goal posts (while at dad's house only though)
BM's eating habits haven't
BM's eating habits haven't changed in at least three years, and apparently she prefers eating that way
Your SD is 3 YO?
Full disclosure: I’m a pescatarian (vegetarian diet + fish). I’ve not eaten red meat for 35 years.
That said, I hope your BM is getting advice from her pediatrician on this diet of hers for your toddler SD. Being a vegan especially takes tons of balance, and that balance would be especially important for a little one.
In any case, it is true eating meat will make you sick if you are not used to it. If she can tolerate poultry, why isn’t your DH feeding her a mostly veg diet, with some poultry to fill in?
In this case, he’s not likely to win by forcefeeding the kid something that’s clearly making her sick for the short time she’s with you. He’s also likely guaranteeing she will be a vegetarian down the road because meat does make her ill and it’s bejng forced upon her as an impressionable child.
Feeding her a veggie diet isnt PAS behaviour in and of itself. It would be PAS behaviour if BM used diet to tell the SD that you were purposely making her sick by eating meat because you don’t care about her (for example - I’m not saying this is true). But be careful the other way - your SD shouldn’t hear anyone at your house badmouthing the mom’s vegetarian-ish diet. Not that you are, but that would be PAS behaviour as well.
Hang in there! Sooner than you think, she’ll be a preteen and even more fun begins!
Honestly it sounds like her
Honestly it sounds like her dad is being kinda mean about it. Kids are weirdos about food and it's so easy to give them issues surrounding it.
I'd be inclined to keep her to the same diet she eats most of the time. Dairy could be making her legitimatly sick, she could have an allergy or just an intollerance from not being used to it. Is there any reason she can't just eat veggies and rice or pasta when she's there? I can help with some simple vegetarian meals idea if you like, or you can simply leave out the meat and dairy in her servings....
She may legitimately lactose
She may legitimately lactose intolerant (debatable), but DH believes that she NEEDS meat and milk and will make her eat things like Salisbury steak and spaghetti with meat sauce.
Wow
Just... wow.
Does the father really
Does the father really believe the lousy 13% of an entire year that he actually has this child is worth making the kiddo sick during the visitation just to ...., to what? Prove he's in control of the kid 48dys a year? That his belief child 'needs' this or that is really going to make a huge difference in child's health when it gets forced own her for his 48hrs a month or his yearly summer attempts?
Has he discussed his beliefs and current forced feeding practices with the child's pediatrician? Does the dr also believe Dad's way of having the child physically sick and miserable for the entire visit is worth Dad's power kick? I bet not.
If you don’t consume milk for
If you don’t consume milk for a long period of time it will make you sick if you drink it. She might not be lactose intolerant by some kind of medical test. But since the food she’s eating is actually making her sick by your own admission, she can’t tolerate it.
It sounds like the dad has serious control issues that are borderline abusive. It’s a serious red flag that he cares more about his opinion on what his baby daughter eats than the effect it has on her.
And i I know this about milk because since I chose to stop drinking it, it makes me sick. It didn’t used to. And I know lots of other people that have experienced the same thing.
Same thing happened to me
Same thing happened to me when I stopped eating meat and then tried it again - sick as a parrot I was.
Are parrots particularly
Are parrots particularly known for being sick?
LOL - it's a Brit expression.
LOL - it's a Brit expression. Here are a few theories about its origin:
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2035,00.html
I don't think this is PAS if
I don't think this is PAS if this is how EVERYONE in BM's home eats. And it's not like DH can't accommodate that type of diet.
Personally, I think your DH needs to start viewing this as a food allergy otherwise his actions will turn it into a PAS tactic. Really, if SD isn't accustomed to eating the food, it will make her very sick. Your DH force-feeding her this food is downright abusive if he knows it makes her ill.
Her diet, while not your DH's preferred, isn't harming her. It isn't difficult to accommodate. And it's an unfortunate side effect of divorce - he is going to lose some control, and this is one area where he is losing it.
He can either accommodate or lose access to his daughter. If I were BM, I would be having an attorney send my XH a letter asking for mediation or a change to supervised visitation if he were purposefully making our child sick just because he wanted to prove a point.
Now, if the kid will ONLY eat food BM cooks, or will ONLY eat a cheeseburger from McDonald's, or will ONLY do a food thing because it's on Dad's time, then I call BS. But the fact of the matter is That BM is CP and she is going to raise SD on the same diet she herself eats. It isn't an unhealthy one, but for 50ish nights a year, your DH can stomach making his daughter a separate meal when the one he makes her eat makes her ill.
So what does SD normally eat
So what does SD normally eat with BM then? Lots of fruits and vegetables and fresh stuff? Fish? Whole grains?
What is DH trying to feed her? Fast food? A steak at every sitting? Foods loaded with sugars and byproducts?
There wasn't much info given other than the BM household allows eggs and chicken on special occasions.
He feeds her red meat and all
He feeds her red meat and all kinds of dairy (milk, cheese).
BM is actually very healthy with food, it just doesn't involve meat.
Sounds like DH
is simply "old school" and was brought up believing oceans of milk, etc. are good for a kid. I know because my ex husband was brought up in the late fifties, early sixties in an "All American" family where there was a tall glass of milk or two with every meal and snack. Now my family wasn't this way because we have more euro roots and were drinking wine mixed with water at a young age. Milk was unheard of. Also we are genetically pre-disposed to being lactose intolerant.
I can see why your SD hates
I can see why your SD hates coming to your house: forcing her to eat meat is a form of active abuse. Your husband is deliberately causing your SD to become ill. Diet as PAS by BM? No. BM has the right to decide what she and her household eats. Why not diet as abuse - on your DH's part?
Your SD is not pretending to be ill - forcing her to eat meat when she hasn't over a long period of time is WILL make her ill. It is simple biology. She doesn't have enough correct stomach enzimes or gut flora to digest meat protein. The result will be nausea, bloating, gas, vomiting etc. Why would you or your H want to subject a child to this? Why would your SD want to visit people who do this to her?
What can you do? Stop feeding this child meat! Or food CONTAMINATED with meat or meat derivatives. Simple. If you need some links to simple and easy vegetarian recipes send me a PM. (I have been vegetarian since I was 10.)
He doesn't think she's
He doesn't think she's pretending, he thinks it's temporary and if BM would budge, this wouldn't be an issue.
It's not going to be temporary with her exposure to it so limited and spaced out, but he won't hear that. BM is just a big monster.
Haven't read but hit and miss
Haven't read but hit and miss on this blog, but I'd like to ask a question.
How did the father eat during his time with the mother (not sure if they were ever married and/or lived together?) ? I will assume your Dh knew the woman was 99.99% vegan. Did they not ever get around to talking about how any child would be raised. Or was their relationship more of a one-night stand and how they eat and beliefs in food never had time to come up?
Did he force feed meat/cheese et on the BM during their time together? How did he handle BM's eating habits prior to their breeding together? Did he practice BM's beliefs on food consumption back then?
BM uses butter, honey, eggs,
BM uses butter, honey, eggs, some seafood, and will eat things that are made with milk (breads, baked goods) on occasion but cooks with almond milk. She's not vegan.
When they were together, they did separate meals and/or he ate meat out of the house.
OP, do you disagree with what
OP, do you disagree with what your DH is doing? Is your hope to change his mind, SD's mind, or your own?
You seem to think that BM's diet is fine. You aren't indicating that SD is malnourished. The simple answer to all of this is "have SD eat according to her usual diet". I'm failing to see what the issue is?
Any parent who PURPOSEFULLY causes harm to their child is abusive. Your DH is going to end up in some really hot water when BM decides to bring this up to authorities.
The courts don't care because
The courts don't care because both parents are providing food.
BM hates DH and I'm sure she's content at this point to let "natural" consequences win the day for her.
The courts WILL care if BM
The courts WILL care if BM can prove that DH is using food to hurt their daughter. Just like if he sent SD out in the cold in only a tank top when she could get frostbitten. Or he withheld Tylenol when she has a fever.
Your DH is being ABUSIVE and cares more about getting back at BM than he does about the health and wellbeing of his daughter. Plain and simple. BM doesn't have to do a damn thing right now because DH is PASing himself.
This has come up in court on
This has come up in court on both sides. Since it's not causing life threatening or chronic illness, it's just "parenting differences".
Then why can't your DH just
Then why can't your DH just feed his daughter food without making her sick?!
It's not hard to keep back 1 cup of spaghetti sauce without meat for her. Or to give her steamed veggies and rice. If your DH needs butter flavoring for his veggies, tell him to buy margarine and cook with that. Roast or bake potatoes instead of making them mashed. Make tacos with a side of black beans that she can use for her protein. Buy a box of garden burgers that can be grilled alongside the "real" stuff. Tofu hot dogs. Seriously, this isn't *that* hard and shouldn't cut too heavily into how your DH likes to eat.
I'm just flabbergasted that he'd rather hurt his daughter to spite his ex versus make small accommodations. This isn't SD being picky; this is SD being physically ill.
BM might actually eat butter
BM might actually eat butter and makes mashed potatoes with almond milk, but these are all great ideas.
He believes she's protein deficient though and "won't buy special food for a child".
Well he can't have it both
Well he can't have it both ways. Her having diarrhea or vomitting isn't going to "magically" give her protein, either when he shoves meat down her throat.
In fact, he will end up causing her to dump MORE nutrients by causing her to be sick. Any "good" he hopes to accomplish will be undone, and then some, if he keeps on like this. It'll be one step forward, two steps back in her nutrition EVERY TIME he feeds her.
So, he needs to come to some compromise. You know meet is a no-go. If she can handle butter and isn't lactose intolerant, she may be able to handle milk IN things, like mashed potatoes. If she IS lactose intolerant, that's not a BM thing. There isn't a "cure" for that, and he needs to act accordingly.
Peanut butter provides a lot of protein, so load her up on sandwiches, put it on fruit/celery, add it to oatmeal, etc. It's cheap and when combined with grains becomes a complete protein. Nuts also provide protein, aren't super-expensive if only eating a serving size, and don't require any additional prep work minus "dump on plate". Baked beans, while not the healthiest bean dish, is an easy side and cheap. If she'll eat eggs, give her an egg. If she'll eat fish, make one night a "fish" or other seafood night.
Look up plant-based proteins and see what you can find. Nuts, beans, and legumes are going to be what packs the most protein-punch, but there are other vegetables that provide protein, too (like broccoli). It's not nearly as difficult as your DH is making it out to be.
Honestly, it's a bit of PAS
Honestly, it's a bit of PAS on your DH's part to dismiss BM's diet and try to "force" SD to eat what HE thinks are the "right" foods. BM is NOT vegan, she's just mostly vegetarian. SD may have gotten used to those foods and now meat seems gross to her. There are lots of meat substitutes that are tasty and will give her the nutrients she needs, as well as nuts and beans, etc. It's fine to encourage her to try meat and other new stuff, but not force her because he thinks BM's diet is "bad".
I haven't eaten meat of any kind for 20 years and if you forced me to, I would throw up on your shoes. Your DH is wrong here.
"I haven't eaten meat in 20 years"
Reminds me of a Jim Gaffigan skit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DV4Jl0Q-beE
Good lord we're talking about
Good lord we're talking about a three year old. She doesn't have the ability to digest meats and dairy, and she won't develop the ability in a weekend. Get your DH to talk to a dietician or his own doc about this so that maybe a third party can convince him that the child doesn't need milk and salisbury steak to be healthy. If he's so concerned about the child's nutritional needs, he needs to learn how to provide balanced meals with foods she can eat.
But I don't think this is about nutrition at all. He's more concerned about hating BM than loving his child.
I like this idea, this DH
I like this idea, this DH should go right to his kids dr or a dietician and ask them what his daughter actually needs. What he’s doing is abusive, and ignorant.
You don’t need red meat & dairy to be healthy, but instead of believing BM, OP, myself, or any of us internet strangers on here, he should talk to a professional who actually knows what they’re talking about. Either way he sounds like an ass. That poor kid.
You husband is wrong.
You husband is wrong.
This isn’t PSA if it’s a consistent diet that BM has implemented in her home. BM herself follows it and the child is with her all but two days a month. Your husband is so wrapped up in fighting BM that even if this some devil tactic to alienate him from the child HE’s the one causing it. He’s the one forcing her to eat something knowing it’s making her sick. It’s a joke that he think’s she’ll just get used to it.
If he keeps it up she can take him to court and restrict his time with the child. He is essentially abusing the child. It’s no different than her raising the child in a religion that doesn’t allow pork and him forcing the child to eat bacon. BM is the custodial parent and she has the control in this situation.
This can’t be real. I father
A father cant really be that big of a shithead and abuse his child like that and other people think it is ok.
Hopefully BM will take full custody so that SD can stop being MADE TO GET SICK! Crap…it is 2 days a month that your DH won’t change a few things to make sure his kid is not puking and having diarrhea What a loser.
This is a DH problem NOT a BM problem. The kid is 3 FFS!!
He doesn't see it as abuse.
He doesn't see it as abuse. He sees it as BM making her diet seem like the only correct one and his food as "bad"
He is forcing the child to
He is forcing the child to eat stuff that makes her sick. How is that not abuse? This isn’t a one off random thing. He KNOWS the food is harming her and thinks she’ll just get used to it. Instead she’s not only starving two days a month but she’s experiencing other gastric issues that can lead to long term harm as well as other eating disorders.
My twin sisters are strict vegetarians and have been since they
were children. My mom was also going on fad diets to lose weight so one day she made us all join her vegetarian diet. Except my sisters stayed on it and haven't eaten meat in over 30 years. I can tell you when they are protein deficient their hair falls out in huge, huge clumps in the shower and their skin gets sickly white and they have dark circles under their eyes.
Your husband
is an idiot and honestly I am surprised that BM hasn't attacked him by now. I had ONE weekend where my ex failed to tell a babysitter that our DD was allergic to apple juice (vomit, hives, diarrhea) and I ended up with a call at 1 am about my sick kid, who I didn't know was with a sitter BTW (it was SM's mother) and when he arrived from his weekend trip all hell broke loose. I did not ream his MIL as she didn't know but it was on him to protect our then four year old from harm and to answer the damn phone when the sitter calls.
Had he made our child sick on purpose I may have killed him. Your husband's first duty is to be responsible for and to protect his child from harm and he is the one harming her.
I’m going to say this isn’t
I’m going to say this isn’t PAS.... if so inclined to alienate there would be much easier tactics to use than this.
My DD is vegetarian.... no one else in the entire family is, it is really a lifestyle choice. Not a big deal.... you just adjust what you are making. I don’t love that she is, but I live with it all the time and it honestly isn’t that difficult. You just want to make sure they are getting proper balance. I would ask mom for some recipes and what she normally eats and just adjust for the bit of time you have her.
He won't make her "girly"
He won't make her "girly" food. He won't buy almond or soy milk because it's "too expensive" and "unnecessary".
I really don't understand why
I really don't understand why you can't adapt your meal plan while she is with you so that you replace the red meat with chicken or fish/shellfish because those are things that she can eat without suffering from it. As eggs aren't a problem, that gives you a few extra options. Problem solved - nobody should feel sick or deprived.
In any case, children of her age really don't need very much protein (13-15 grams/day) at all so there really isn't much point in obsessing about it.
Whatever you decide, please tell your dh to stop bullying his child about food.
Red meat
Not healthy to have red meat all the time. I dont see why OP's DH cannot just have red meat when his kid is not there, and have chicken or fish when the kid is there. Healthier for all. Ops DH is creating the problem.
My point entirely
My point entirely![Smile](https://prod-cdn-1.ststatic.com/sites/all/modules/contrib/smiley/packs/kolobok/smile.gif)
Another thing is that the child does have a varied diet. There are only a few things she cannot eat so where's the problem? Oh yes, I forgot, it's her father ... Bet he thinks that vegetables are for sissies too.
I don't know that she does
I don't know that she does eat chicken, just that it's around during holidays with BM.
BM cooks fish sometimes. She does occasionally have crab and shrimp with BM, which her father thinks is crazy to feed a kid. It's a cultural thing though and seafood isn't anymore expensive than beef or chicken in BM land.
No one is saying kid has to get shellfish
Any place I have lived fish (fish, not shellfish) is cheaper than red meat. Your DH woudl be healthier if he cut down on red meat. Sounds like mom is giving the kid a healthy diet.
About a parenting making a
About a parent making a kid eat something that clearly makes them sick ..abusive. Because the parent in insisting, forcing, making the child do something to cause the child harm. Child eats red meat , reaction is either throwing UP or diarrhea.
I would not want to be in the same home as that man.