I'm with you, I wouldn't feel the need to be involved in HIS therapy sessions. If your wife wants to, fine (she has enabled him, thus is part of the problem), but I would bow out, if I were you.

He admits that there was no reason for his behavior towards you, it had nothing to do with you, so his therapy doesn't need to have anything to do with you, either.

If he is serious about getting help with his issues, great. He can apologize and show that he's changed AFTER he's done the work.

You can be supportive of your wife, without being dragged into the therapy sessions.

Hi, mathfed.

The only good reason I can think of to speak with SS's rehab therapist would be so you can state your position (done with SS) and let her/him know about the enabling that is your wife's fatal flaw. Addicts lie all day, so your honest perspective might be helpful.

Beyond that, I'd just say that it would be nice if mother and son could have a healthy, ADULT relationship someday.

Wow. My condolences to you on this entire situation.

To me what is blaringly absent in this situation is any effort by your Skid to contact you in any of this. This reeks of little more than your DW enabling the Skid's behaviors just as she has seems to have always done.

Were I you I would not be interested in participating in any of this until the Skid actually contacted me rather than using mommy and the therapist as his intermediaries. If he actually has the balls to call you and ask you to participate then maybe, and it is a long shot and very qualified maybe, again... if I were you.

Good luck with this one.

Maybe he has changed or wants to change which is good for him and perhaps he has grown up. It sounds like your boat has sailed which mine would have as well. All the torment he has caused you over the years doesn't give reason to go to a meeting so he will feel better which it all could be an act anyways or he has mental issues which unfortunately might not change. Perhaps over time, things will improve but I wouldn't jump in or expect anything to change in the short term.

I have a worthless, disgusting POS adult SS. I tried to accept him and to hope against hope that “this time he’d changed “

A decade later this is what has worked beautifully for me - he’s DEAD to me. I do not care if he is dead or alive. I don’t wish him dead as that would hurt my DH and 2 - it is really irrelevant to me. I do not wish him ill. I would not even care if he won the lottery and became a decent human being who was not a druggy/drunk. He just DOES NOT EXIST in my life.

Almost daily I have to bite my tongue to not make some snarky remark about SS. He’s such easy pickings. But when a person does not exist for you then it means that you do not mention them or pick at their flaws.

I have an OSD that I dislike as much as you dislike your SS. I've told my DH that she would have to have extensive therapy and an extended period of good behavior before I would consider having anything to do with her. Being PART of her therapy? NFW.

I support my DH's relationship with her, but I am not her scapegoat/therapy test subject/anything other than a person who deserves respect.

I agree with others, trust your gut. As Rags pointed out, if your SS is really trying to change he'll man up & contact you directly (and can definitely write a letter or contact you even though he's blocked, if he really wanted to). Recovery is about working the steps, listing those you've wronged, becoming willing to make amends, and then (Step 9), contacting those you've hurt & apologizing... and going forward in a different manner (= a "living amends" since you cannot change the way you behaved in the past).

Absent any long-term change and evidence that this young man has truly shifted his behaviors, I'd say this is just another lying addict scam. Just like your gut is telling you. I really feel for you- my SS17 is a different story (not violent) but my "hopes" for him changing anytime soon has been crushed right out of me from the years of lying, disrespecting, and manipulating. Trying to ride it out but also I'm burnt - part of me is just DONE. We'll see where it goes...

Dear Mathfed:

It took years of abuse to get you to this no contact position. It could take years of his improved behavior for you to ever even consider any type of relationship with this person. All that he did to you does not magically go away. To immediately agree would be horrible for you and even worse for him. Mary Poppins would call this a "pie crust promise" easily made - easily broken. You want more like a forged steel promise and that takes time. Show him and your wife that there are real consequences to his actions. They should both respect you more.

Your participation should be absolutely voluntary. Your wife asked if you would participate, you said no, and that should be that. Her insistence that you do one thing or another is wrong. Is your wife getting help for her enabling? THAT is the problem you have. She should be attending Al-Anon meetings or meeting with a counselor familiar with addiction. The problem is too big for your wife to handle on her own, especially since her solution is to do more of the same enabling behavior that has never worked and will never work. Does she not realize she is repeating the same thing over and over with zero results, other than to drive you away?

I wouldn't participate in a call with his therapist either.

My SS changed at about 17. He said he found God and wanted to be a better person. Probably lasted about a week. Some people can't change. Some can. This is on him. your wife should not keep pushing you to do something you don't want to do. These things take time. You can believe there is change when there is actual change, not forced change.

"her son may have realized he is heading in a bad direction. He took it upon himself to enroll himself in a 60-90 day inpatient program"

I have known several addicts in my long life and never once ever seen one voluntarily repent. My guess is that he was arrested for something. Find out what that something is. Your wife is giving him credit for coming to his senses on his own. I highly doubt that is true. I suspect he wants financial assistance from you.

Ask your wife if your feelings matter. It seems like she has no empathy towards you.

I did not read all the comments, but in your shoes I would go to the session, it's part of his rehab.

This does not mean you have to allow him back into your home, this does not mean all is forgiven and forgotten, no he has to earn your trust back and it also does not mean your wallet will magically jumps open again.

During this session, listen and observe, if he apologize accept it and say to him, It will take time for me to trust you again but I accept your apology.

Make it clear to your wife, you are still not allowing him back in the house, maybe one day if he proofed himself worthy, yes get a GED, get a job, and launch into the adult world. You will not support him financially, he has a father and a mother but she will not spend all her money on him cause she has responsibilities with your house hold. He's an recovering addict, if she starts handing him money and bailing him out, he will not stay on path, she needs to practice tough love now till the kid is out of this habit and launched, yes it will be hard but it will be worth it in the end, or maybe not...

You just stay true to yourself and keep your word,

It's like a loop that I can't get off of.

You have explained to her what your position is, don't let her keep dragging you into discussions about it. It's hard, I know, but you are going to have to tell her that you are not discussing it anymore and to just stop. And then, you are going to have to stop discussing it with her. She's not going to like it, but it's the only way to get off of the loop. Don't let her keep engaging you.

She might be trying to make you part of the problem or she is convincing herself that you are, to take some of the heat off of her (and her son). The dysfunction is theirs, they need to deal with it.

I completely understand how you feel. But I had a different take from most who responded.

First, there will be a therapist on the phone with you to keep SS from attacking you again.

It's only one phone call, not intensive, long-term therapy. Often therapists will do a preliminary session with family members to get a feel for what SS is dealing with. So you're not committing to ongoing therapy with SS, just something to help a therapist know his situation. You can opt out after that.

And it's not as if you're giving SS a car or a check. It's therapy. No one loves therapy. He's not getting anything satisfying out of therapy. And you aren't giving him any perk by being involved in a phone call. You're passing information onto his health care provider to help him. That's it.

Second, SS getting help is a positive change that can be good for you too, if it works. It might not. But it's the right direction and if you stay married, you will have SS, so why not do a small thing that *might* get him on his feet, help you, and help your wife? If nothing improves, you can always say you tried. That has been golden to me in my own step situation. "I did all I could for you," is a great thing to absolve yourself if things with SS don't improve. If you do leave your marriage, you'll want to feel you did everything to make it work.

And lastly, you might get some valuable help from this therapist that you're not expecting. That therapist might tell your wife, "Hey, you gotta focus on your marriage and let SS focus on himself," or something to that effect. It might be even better, like, "If you do this, you're going to lose your husband." If you all three hear it from a third party at the same time, that's powerful. You can remind your wife (and SS, for that matter) of what the therapist advised when she's doing those things that sink your marriage. This helped me a lot when my husband was falling back into the same enabling behavior with SD - it was like I had someone on my side who wasn't even in the room.

I hate casting the dissenting opinion. And I suspect you're just done with the marriage and this really is too much for you to invest now - and I totally understand that. But if you're not sure you're done with the marriage, what are you losing with an hour phone call? Probably less than you might gain. I assure you, no good therapist will let him attack you and you can always hang up if SS goes off the rails. I guess this might give you a new glimpse at SS that you haven't seen before and, if nothing else, that might be interesting.

My own son had problems with opiod abuse.  He did kick it and today he works, owns a home, and things are good.

The difference was, I went from probably being an enabler to tough love.  

Here is my take.  Your DW is desperate to get her kid to straighten up.  The kid still knows the tricks.   The kid also needs somewhere to go when he gets out of rehab, unless he has a jail cell waiting.   He knows he must make an effort, even if it is trickery, to make up with you, so he is putting pressure on your DW to get you to make up.

What I did with my son, after he lived in his car for 3 months.  First he had to get a job and I helped him with a place to live for 6 months.  He also had his now-wife and 2yo son living with him.  I wasn't allowed to see Gson during this time.  After 6 months, they moved to a better place to live and I backed off of helping except things like auto repairs or emergencies, and I always paid whomever and not DS.

After about 4 years, he was able to go and get an FHA loan and buy their house.  

A phone counseling will not give you the luxury of looking in the kids eyes and judging his honesty.   I would be very wary and if you want to continue with your marriage, you can maybe put restrictions on what you are willing to work on/help, whatever the two of you feel you can do.  

My kid was using needles and pretty bad so they can clean up and turn around, but it takes time to rebuild the trust...or even build it from scratch.

Past behavior is the best predictor of future performance.

I made this suggestion in another thread recently... but.... his apology needs to not only be made in a form you stipulate, it should be demonstrated.

I would go with that when discussing this with your wife.  SS's behavior has resulted in consequences, he needs to demonstrate appropriate behaviors in all aspects of his life for an extended period of time (or in other words, until you say he has met  your expectations) before  his presence is tolerated in  your life. At least that is what I would go with if I were  you.

Once  he has adequately demonstrated appropriate behaviors and decisions, then maybe, and it is a big maybe, he will be allowed some controlled interface with your life. That should not include residence in your home.

There should be no stipulated period of time on this required demonstration of appropriate behaviors and decisions. Those who play these games love to push for dates.  When the date hits.... they seem to consistently go immediately back to their BS behaviors.  

On more than one instance in my career I have taken over organizations.  Part of that is reviewing personnel files.  The blaring gap in nearly every personnel file I have seen is the absence of any performance negatives.  After reviewing personnel files I set up meetings with all of the supervisors listed in the personnel files and interview the supervisors on each employee. Invariably there are a number of slugs who have been shuffled around to different supervisors and no one documents performance issues..... until those slugs land in my organization.  I am the guy who bares their asses on their behavioral issues. 

I then meet with each of my employees, synch on their backgrounds and career aspirations, etc...... and move forward with a new relationship.  They have a clean slate with me though I am as fully aware as I can be of the history of their performance from my review of their files and the interview of their past supervisors.

When the slugs revert to their normative crappy behaviors I reprimand them, review the reprimand with them, and put it in their file.  I have never had a single one fail to ask me.... how long until I am off of the reprimand.... my answer is.... never.  Once I put it in your file... it stays in your file just like the positive stuff in the file.  I will not pass poor performing employees on to another leader.  I have suffered from the failures of prior leaders to do their job in managing poor performers and I refuse to be that guy that passes the shit down the pipe.

Your SS needs clarity that he is on double secret MATHFED probation for the rest of his life and there will be zero tolerance of anything but appropriate behaviors.

Again, this is what I would go with if I were  you.

Good luck.  Take care of  you.

My instinct was to not do the therapy sessions. After reading the pros and cons detailing one of the other, I feel like this will be a way to weasel back in, and that he is using this to play victim. With all the pressuring going on, thats what I take from it. He can write a letter.

When Toxic Feral has an argument with her mother who she lives with, she goes on an accusatory rampage. Thats the only time she will text DH. When she wants money. Or wants something. A few weeks ago she wanted to move back in. And in her "plea" she asked DH to put her first, ahead of me, his spouse. I wish that he would explain to her that it doesnt work that way, no one should be ahead of your spouse, but his only response was, after her texting mean things about me, and mean things about him, was "if we are/were so horrible why do you want to live with us anyways? Nothing will be any different".

Toxic Feral has always been mean to me, and trashed me behind my back. She has verbally abused me, said horrible things. And now she wants to move back.

No going to happen. Not now and not ever. If you let that door open, SS will definitely use that. And your wife is the only one who should be in those therapy sessions. Even if you were to impartially share the SS behavior, that is not a promise that anyone will listen.

I feel like it is a manipulation, thus far.