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BM coaching SD to lie in therapy

Caitlin's picture

During SD's psychiatric evaluation yesterday, BM made a big deal about how SD is not comfortable with my family. SD haltingly recounted a few things she didn’t like about going to my parents' home, some of which I mentioned in a previous blog if you've been following along. The whole time SD was saying these things, she was looking at BM and BM was coaching SD through the whole story.

BM also made a big point about how SD wants more time with her dad, without me or her baby sister around. When SD is with BM, she (SD) admits to this stuff. When SD is with us and we give them Daddy/Daughter alone time, she actively begs to be allowed to call me, to have me and baby sister come join them, etc. In fact, many times SD asks to go shopping with just me, leaving dad at home. SD also begs to go see Grammy (my mom) and the rest of the family. When we're with them, she follows them around and says "chase me, tickle me, etc" She asks coyly "who's your favorite grandchild?" and bats her eyelashes. This is not a child who is uncomfortable with my family.

To me, the lies are easy to spot because the truth is right there for us to witness. SD says that she doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings so she tells each parent what she thinks that person wants to hear. That in itself is a lie too, because she is always brutally honest with us. How about when she says "I love you, Caitlin, but I wish you weren't in my life"... That doesn't look like she's trying to protect my feelings, and frankly, I'm GLAD she can say that to me if it's the truth. The only person she is trying to protect from the truth is BM because she is the only one who puts pressure on SD to feel one way or another. BM doesn't want her to have a relationship with any of us, so she sabotages it and SD has been relatively immune to it -- until now.

Last night while SD was on the phone with her dad (with BM whispering in the background) SD said “Can we not go to Grammy's this weekend?” in a listless and dull tone. He just told her that if she didn’t want to go then that would be OK, being that BM was in earshot. We're concerned that BM's constant undermining of my family is actually affecting how SD truly feels. We don’t know what we can do except be sensitive to SD's needs and play it by ear.

It's frightening that BM is turning up the manipulations of SD now that she sees that she can't manipulate SD's psychiatrists. How do you think we should approach this with SD this weekend without bashing BM? See, BM plays it up as SD is afraid to tell us that she's uncomfortable with my family and that she wants alone time away from me and baby sister because she doesn't want to hurt our feelings, but it's all MADE UP BY BM! I just don't know how to talk to SD about this without saying what I really feel: your mom's a lying manipulative bitch!

Comments

cih's picture

That is just what children should be taught! Lying to people that are trying to help us is always a good tip! YUCK! I am sorry that is happening to her!!

Caitlin's picture

I think BM believes the stories she makes up in some sick deranged way. To her, she is the victim, the single mom struggling to save her daughter from her mean terrible daddy and daddy's fiance and extended family. When in reality, she is making her daughter sick with all the horrible things she does to alienate her from us.

I see that your SDs' BM is bipolar, so is my SD's BM. My SD is 11 and her lunatic mother has driven her to several suicide attempts. And the courts think that giving BM primary physical custody is in the child's best interests?! WTF?!?

It's so scary. I hope your girls are ok. How do they handle BM's illness?

Nymh's picture

I hate to know that you and I are dealing with the same thing. I'm starting to believe that BM in my situation actually believes all the crazy lies and tall tales that she tells everyone. She's constantly telling us and forcing SS to tell us that SS ONLY wants to spend time with his father, NOT his father's family or friends and definitely NOT ME. She sends us emails from an email account with SS's name on it that say that he hates me, doesn't want to come visit because of me, etc. This is the same child that will start paperball wars with me that last for hours, or ask his dad if him and I can go home and play Nintendo together. He sits next to me most of the time when we eat. I've noticed that a lot of times when he has a problem or can't figure something out he automatically comes to me to ask about it or get help. Does that sound like a child who hates me? No! And your SD does not hate you.

The problem is that BM is CRAZY. There's no way around it. The woman is nuts. And what I hate the most is that according to our lawyer, the court will most likely rather leave SS in his mother's care; where he is emotionally abused and physically neglected, than with us just because BF and I are not married!

*~So sayeth Nymh~*

Caitlin's picture

I can't tell you how much I appreciate how passionately you feel about this! It makes me feel so good to know you have my back!

Your suggestions are always great, and even when you don't have any, you always end up making me feel better with what you say. I hadn't thought of it until you suggested recording SD, but we actually have tons of video of her having a blast with my family, so it would be interesting to bring that up in therapy and show right there on screen just how "uncomfortable" she is with her Grammy and Pop Pop and everyone else.

Actions speak louder than words, and SD's actions just prove her words wrong. And if we can gather more proof of her words being influenced - no, invented! - by BM, then I think we'll be set.

Anne 8102's picture

I guess all you can really do is encourage her to tell 100% of the truth 100% of the time, especially to mental health professionals, because they cannot help her if they aren't hearing the truth. And let her know that her parents will love her no matter what she says, but that a lie is much more hurtful than the truth could ever be, even if her intentions are good. There's bound to be some time when they get her alone - without BM in the room - and hopefully they can get to the real truth then. I'm sure they've seen this before and will know that some of her comments were coached.

~ Anne ~

Caitlin's picture

I'm kind of embarrassed to say that we haven't really done that. We are so hyper-vigilant about not bashing BM that we haven't really sat SD down to say she needs to tell the 100% honest truth, because in doing so, it would imply that BM is filling her head with lies, which we all see happening, but we act like we don't in order to not speak ill of her. And BM is so good at twisting the truth, taking things out of context, implying something that isn't true and then denying it, that it's hard sometimes to even show that it's all lies.

So what we have done is "accepted" this BS as SD's "truth" and we just really drove it home to her to tell us about these things right away so we won't be hearing about it for the first time several months or years down the road. (Meanwhile, we know why we don't hear about it at the time it's supposedly happening - because BM makes it up after the fact, puts these ideas in SD's head and then has her bring it up in therapy, saying SD has been too uncomfortable to tell us until now. Complete and utter BULL!)

You're right, though. We need to really put it out there that SD needs to tell 100% of the truth 100% of the time. I think we were wrong to act like all this crap was the truth. We live, we learn.

OldTimer's picture

I've missed so much! But I finally caught up. LOL.

I really think that the video/recording idea is a great one. I would be very careful though, because as a child, I had a very vicious step dad (XSD now) that did that to me to try to prove that I had a problem, when in fact he had a problem and was bipolar... not me.

You know, it never accrued to me until this very moment that in many ways, I grew up with this similar situation. My XSD was bipolar, and he used to scare me to death. I was pretty petrified of him. While the situation is quite different, in many ways, parts of it was quite the same. There was a time when he was going through therapy, and of course, he didn't believe that he had the problem, it was everyone else's around him- but mainly I was the problem. He was sooo hell bent in proving the therapist wrong that he used to record our conversations in secret. I was so scared of him that I would tell him whatever he wanted to hear. Sound familiar? Of course, then I would turn around and say something else, because I was constantly trying to read his face, body language, just trying to make him happy because otherwise it was very stressful. (I hate to say it, but I got extremely good at body language reading... still am.)

Anyway, it just dawned on me that I found stacks of his tapes (conversations, more like his ritual yelling/intimidating lecture/rants with some from of me 'confessing all my sins' pratically), and one time when no one was home, I stuck one in the tape player and boy did I feel sooo betrayed. So, I just want you to be careful. I think it's a good idea, it did help me in a way, because the therapist saw me, figured things out pretty quick, and then things got pretty nasty. But if she were to ever find out, she may not understand, and feel really betrayed or awful, you know.

Caitlin's picture

Wow, Step Mom, I'm sorry to hear about the terrible time you had with your XSD. BM is bipolar too, so I know how stressful it is for the kids.

For us, rather than record conversations with SD unbeknownst to her to gather "proof", I'd prefer to just show our home movies of her having a lovely time with my family. Actions speak louder than words. You can't fake that kind of bond. I don't think that SD running at top speed to Grammy and Pop Pop for hugs and kisses when we visit them is done to "please" us, but rather because that is what comes naturally because she loves them. When she comes to therapy and says she's uncomfortable with them in order to appease her mother, we can then say "does this look like uncomfortable to you?" and show, not say that it's not true.

Besides, even if we did record a conversation with SD where she plainly said she loves my family and has a wonderful time with them, BM would just say that SD is saying that to please us and doesn't want to hurt our feelings with the truth. BM loves to transfer everything SHE'S guilty of onto us!

lovin-life's picture

Why was BM right there feeding her during her session anyway? I hope that these professionals will see & read the body language between them as well. Will you guys get a chance to have any session time without BM present? What can you do to present your observations to these people? I think youv'e done a great job of discribing 'events' and situations involving SD right here on this site....is it possible that you could 'compile' all these events into a time line...'report' of some kind...for them to read.

I ask this because my mom..who struggles with depression and mental health issues...landed in hospital for 2 months one time. She was treated by psychiatrists, counsellors, mental health nurses, etc...for the whole 2 months. When I went to visit her...they wanted me to sit in for a session. I was 'shocked' to find out that they had NO CLUE about what was REALLY going on......only what she had spoon fed them. I thought that they were professionals and that they would get to the truth and once there fix it!

How could they help her when they didn't even have a picture of what was really going on?

She had told them..things like 'my father had never acted this way before'...and I said "WHAT!! and started spewing off incident after, incident of violent episode..going back to before I started school"

Complete..denial on her part!!!! But that's all they had to go with ... until they got the rest of the information from me. They could ask any family member or family friend....it's all commom knowledge BUT they only had one source for their information and it was from the *SICK WOMAN*....

I know lawyers send written breifs to judges filling them in on additional information to ponder before trial.....

This process is just starting for SD....but I think the professionals need ANY & ALL information they can get to know what to look for and what the right questions to ask are in order to proceed to the right treatment.....

Caitlin's picture

For the initial evaluation, they had both parents there to provide input and they also took SD off by herself. I think they did a good job evaluating her and involving both parents because they of course couldn't just go on what a sick little girl was saying, like they had done with your mother. And my opinion is that the psychiatrist was very attuned to the dysfunctional relationship between BM and SD. At least I hope.

SD is in a 5-10 day outpatient program so she has 9am-3pm every day on her own with the psych team without BM hovering over her coaching her every word, but even so - she goes home to the woman every night where BM does her damnedest to influence her daughter's feelings and thoughts on everything. I hope they can get to the truth, given the untenable situation. We are supposed to go in for family therapy, but we have no word yet on when that will be. I can't wait to go and provide a report on SD's situation.

Caitlin's picture

Ok, so after the strange conversation with SD when she asked not to go to my parents this weekend because BM was giving her such a hard time, my fiance and I were terribly nervous about whether or not she'd feel comfortable at my aunt's birthday party on Saturday. While eating dinner on Friday night, we called a "family meeting" as we call them, to discuss the weekend's plans.

We said, "We're invited to aunt so-and-so's birthday party tomorrow night, but if you don't feel comfortable going, you and Daddy can stay home for some quality time together. There's no pressure either way. We just want you to feel comfy." She responded in a big huge sarcastic "duh" tone: "Well, let me see - a party? Gee I don't know. Sounds like I would hate it. OF COURSE I WANNA GO!!! Why would you even ask that?!"

Well, we were so relieved - yet very confused too because just the day before she was saying that she didn't feel comfortable with my family and asked that we not go to my parents' this weekend. The party was local, not out of state where my parents live, but the point being that she didn't want to be with my family this weekend. We explained to her that we were asking because of what she had said, and she just got kind of quiet and stared at her feet. Finally she said, "well SOMETIMES I feel uncomfortable, but not all the time."

We just told her to please please tell us whenever she's not comfy because we had no idea and we just want her to be happy, etc. I wish what we had said was more along the lines of, "do you feel uncomfortable because your mom feels left out of your new extended family?" because that's what this is about of course. We'll bring it up soon. It needs to be said.

So, the party was such a blast that SD exclaimed to my aunt that "this is the BEST PARTY EVER and I mean ever!" We'll see how BM turns this into something negative. She'll find a way.

Caitlin's picture

We just got our first appointment for family therapy with SD at the clinic! I am so looking forward to going and helping my fiance shed some light on the situation.

I don't know yet if BM will be going to this appointment. Part of me really wants her to be there so she will show her true colors when she sees that I'm there. However, the other part of me really doesn't want her there because I'm afraid I won't say what needs to be said in her presence. If things aren't going her way, she'll just burst into tears and make it all about her so that no progress is made at all. That's her MO.

God, grant me the strength!

Anne 8102's picture

My oldest SD went through a court-ordered family therapy thing to help her with the transition from my husband being her Daddy to her BF being her Dad. We, naturally, were not asked to participate because who gives a shit about us, right?! What's losing a child, right?! But I digress. Anyway, what they did was they had separate sessions alone with the child, alone with the father, alone with the mother first. Then they had father/daughter and mother/daughter. Then it was father/mother and finally father/mother/daughter. Eventually, the stepparents were brought in and by the time it was all over, father, mother, stepfather, stepmother, child and siblings were all together for a few final sessions. I think you guys can probably expect something similar. You'll have your alone time and also combined time, because I am sure one of the goals of this is to get BM and you guys working together. I don't know how realistic that is, but hopefully they can at least get SD to the point of being able to function successfully in spite of her mother. Keep us posted. You know we're all praying for you and here for you.

~ Anne ~

Caitlin's picture

So for this session, BM will be there with us and when I received this news, I could feel my blood pressure rise. Yes, of course a goal in all this is to get BM and us working together for SD, but given that you can't reason with an unreasonable person, this is a lost cause. This is why SD's original therapist decided not to do any more joint sessions. She said it was a waste of time because BM was not willing to work with us and there was nothing anyone could do to change that.

I have a feeling that this session will be broken down into groups, as well as meeting all together. That's how it's gone in the past. Man, I hope this goes well. Thanks for the support, everyone. It really helps knowing I can come here and share this.

Caitlin's picture

My fiance had assumed that BM would be there but it turns out that she won't be. (I'm quite relieved about that, I must admit.)

He just got off the phone with her and she asked if the clinic had called him and he said yes, that we're all set for Thursday, and she just said that she was surprised that they wouldn't be seen together. No drama at all, which is WEIRD.

I'm wondering if she'll end up pitching a fit like she often does or if she'll let it go and just attend her session and badmouth us then. Anyway, I'm sure we'll eventually have a session with BM, but I'm glad we're avoiding it for now. I have a sneaking suspicion that she will try to weasel her way in to our appointment though. She's been known to do this.

happy's picture

well if she does this just may be a good thing. As said in the past blogs they will truly see her for what she is.. A pshyco..

Sad for her because for all involved not just the SD it would be so good. She may actually find the love of her life if she would stop her interferring in you and his. But she will just grow old a bitter person.

Just keep your head up Caitlyn..

Caitlin's picture

Well, BM didn't know that I'll be attending the family therapy session, so that's why there was no drama over it. My fiance didn't tell her and she just assumed that the clinic had made separate appointments for mother and father, NOT mother and father/stepmother.

Poor SD asked her dad last night who was going to be there and she looked really worried when he told her I was coming. She asked if there would be times that just he went. BM's been working on her of course and she's just trying to keep the peace. It is so unfair that she has to bear the brunt of BM's tantrums! It is not her responsibility!

lovin-life's picture

Maybe you can mention during these talks about the sessions..that its sooo important that she is very honest when talking to these people...that she tells the whole truth and not worry about whether she's making someone happy or unhappy. The truth is what's important.

That story about feeling uncomfortable around your family....that's a prime example...of how BM twists things around...or plants ideas. Or takes a molehill and makes a mountain. And now the 'fear & worry' on her face..that BM is going to be upset over you showing up.....hopefully SD can feel safe enough to convey that the stress of being around you doesn't originate from her....but rather her mother's tantrums. Or they put it all together...

I hope they see what's going to transpire...shit will hit the BM FAN...over you being there.... If they could see how this all works with her...playing games with SD..and ovserve first hand and document her as being the root of SD's problems. Things could get stressful at first....but it would be a major breakthrough if they could see themselves that SD needs to get away from this very toxic woman to get better....

Good Luck....

Caitlin's picture

The social worker on SD's case at the clinic left a message for my fiance this morning saying that SD is worried that my attendance today would "damage her relationship with her mother" and asked that I participate via speakerphone. WTF? I don't know whose words those are - BM's? SD's? the social worker's? the psychiatrist's? - but Jesus Christ, I should be there! I certainly don't want to cause SD any more stress in her already stressed-out life, but it's not ME causing her the stress, it's her damn MOTHER! If SD is scared to go home to Mommy after I come to family therapy, then maybe Mommy shouldn't have custody!!

Not coming sends a very clear message to SD. It says, "Don't worry, we will bow to BM's temper tantrums for as long as we all shall live. We will live by her control. We will let her use you as a pawn, we will allow her to manipulate you and us and the mental health system, all in the name of keeping the peace. Better yet, we will let her live in a fantasy land where she can pretend I don't exist. I will just disappear off the face of the earth and everyone will be happy."

ARGH!

My fiance is calling the social worker back to tell her all this and insist that I come. If it doesn't work out, I'll participate via speakerphone, but I DISAGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH THIS!

lovin-life's picture

I know what your saying...it's not fair that BM gets her own way. But..Be patient!!

Oh what a tangled web BM weaves......

But that statement.....'damage SD relationship with BM'....wether that orignated from BM or SD......it must speak volumes to these people...of who's behind the stress in this childs life....whose promoting parential alienation...who fosters warped dependancy/loyaty issues in the child!!!!!

They may be afraid of just how interpedendant the child is with BM and aren't ready to make waves....until they are deeper into therapy/treatment and have a better assement of SD's situation.....

....be patient...

I am so routin' for you guys and SD. That they see all of this sick behaviour from the BM....and do something about it

OldTimer's picture

However, I wonder if you can possibly arrange a separate and alone session with just you, your husband and the therapist- that way, you can get out any and all issues that you would like to have addressed.

The other thing I wonder about is, when SD talks about 'the sessions, the who's coming, who's not, etc etc', I won't bother even talking about it to your SD at all. And in fact, in my opinion, you keep drumming to her to tell the truth, that's she's doing a great job etc etc. You also may want to side step a little here and there, redirect. It's not a perfect solution, but it might help just a little bit. Whenever SD starts asking if 'you'll be there' maybe you should just take the approach of... I know you are worried, but it's not your responsibility to worry about who comes and goes. Why are you worried? Are you afraid something will happen? Why is that? But don't pressure her to answer you, just keep the questions open. If she answers, great, if she doesn't, leave it open. Don't confirm or reconfirm who will be there or not. Let her know that it's an adult matter. It's not her fault, etc etc. You won't be lying to her, and at the same time you won't be feeding into her either. And I would document what she says to you, so you can provide this to the therapist. Just something to consider.

lovin-life's picture

Great point! If SD doesn't have the information..she can't be badgered for it...or feel guilt for spilling the beans to this one or that one. And she can't feed any information to BM if she isn't privy to it...that takes her out of the equation. Some pressure releif for her...And BM has to go through the therapists directly for hr information..hhhhhhmmmmmmmm ....they might clue into her quicker.
Your Good!!!

happy's picture

If you could see me Right now I am giving you a hug.. I too believe that you should be there. Whether or not the SD, BM want you there you should be there. If SD is that scared of her mothers reaction then right there proves she should not have custody of her. I mean my kids are afraid of me when they are in trouble and its not because they get spankens its because when I am mad the whole world knows it. I am the parent. But the way she is acting about this is insane. Its almost like she is the parent and BM is hte child.
I think you have an awesome man to be standing up for you the way he is. Most of the men you read about on here are afraid to stand up to the ex's for whatever reason. But not your man. He gets my nomination for "outstanding" BF/Father of the year.
HUGS TO YOU and the FAMILY..
Happy

Caitlin's picture

Well, we should be paying you all the big bucks, because you came to the same conclusions as the psychiatrist!

First off, the psychiatrist decided not to tell SD about our next appointment until the day of so that a) SD won't be worried about mixed loyalties as time leads up to it, b) BM can't force the information out of her, and c) BM won't show up and crash the session. (The psychiatrist herself said she suspected BM would do this. We all concur.)

Also, we did end out the session without SD so we could fully flesh out the situation without sugar coating it for SD. The psychiatrist thanked me for being flexible about participating via speakerphone and I just said that I hoped they didn't think that it was my presence that was stressing out SD, but BM's reaction to my presence. She actually laughed and said she knew that in the first 5 minutes of meeting BM. What a relief!

The psychiatrist also said that half the words out of SD's mouth were not her own. She said she had every reason to suspect that she is repeating everything her mother feeds to her because an 11-year-old doesn't talk like SD does about very adult issues.

She encouraged us to go after custody. She said that she has to remain objective, but if what she has observed in this case is true, then there is a reason SD is sick: BM. She said that SD would thrive in a stable environment and she believes that we can provide that to her. She also is VERY fearful of what BM will do when she gets the court summons. However, she still thinks that the only way SD will ever get better is to remove the source of her mental anguish. She has offered to provide all of her detailed records to the courts to aide our case. (She can't offer an official recommendation for objectivity reasons, but her records plainly show what any sane person would recommend.)

We also talked about the divorce and why, after 4 years, it has still not gone through because BM refuses to close it. We got on the subject of finances and we mentioned that my fiance will likely be required to pay her alimony for life because she is mentally disabled and unable to work. The psychiatrist immediately jumped in to ask how she even got custody if that's the case. We explained that she actually used it to her advantage: since she does not work, she is able to raise SD full-time, be available for her on days off school, etc. The psychiatrist was outraged. She told us to use her mental disability and hang her with it. Wow!

So the session was a success, even though I was not physically there. My crowning moment was before SD left the room and they were telling me about what they had talked about before they called me. They shared that SD didn't like when her parents badmouthed each other, so the psychiatrist told her to say "you may not speak badly about my father" and vice versa, then leave the room. She told her to say it to me too and she said "oh no, I don't have to. Caitlin's great. She never talks bad about anybody." So apparently, I AM capable of hiding my hatred of that cow! My heart just swelled with love for that little girl when I heard that.

Oh and by the way, she said the only bad thing that dad once said about mom was that she's crazy. (I just have to laugh at that.) She said it was hurtful and he apologized and explained that he had said it to try to explain why she did some of the things she did, ie. "Mommy's mentally ill so she sometimes doesn't mean what she says or does." I don't know if he actually used the word crazy or not, but at least that's how SD heard it. Meanwhile, BM speaks ill of us left and right, pouring poisonous lies into her ears, but she doesn't bring that up. The psychiatrist has already been witness to BM badmouthing us right in a session. She actually stopped her on several occasions. I'm so glad she gets it!

Next step: in-home therapy. A team of psychiatrists comes to both homes to help evaluate SD and her interaction with her family members. More ammo for our court date! BM is digging her own grave here.

OldTimer's picture

I am soooo happy that you finally are getting some real professionals here. Keep us updated.

Okay... my bill is in the mail... Wink

happy's picture

You said I am a worldly person at 31, well I think you are too. I am glad that finally you may get a little peace. But not for long. I think that you and Hubby to be should also fight for custody. Her mother is "Mentally Ill" if you will..
It is awesome that you do not really have to do anything to prove mothers instability, she is plainly doing it all by herself. And the SD is obviously in touch with her feelings for you. She said it herself that she has no problems with you. Its all her mom..
I wish you luck. Just remember this is going to get very ugly before it gets better. I wish you all the best and we are all here to help you on this issue..
My very best..
Smile Happy Smile

lovin-life's picture

What a relief that must be! Finally someone in 'the system' has your back and things are gonna change!!

It's gonna get rough first....BM is going to flip her lid....at any attempts to remove SD from her influence & control.

Hang in there!!

Yeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh for you guys!! Smile

jlmtik164's picture

Caitlin, you have proved that good always prevails, it does not matter how long it takes. You maintaining your composure in the face of evil BM is finally paying off. Naturally, most people will want to strike back at someone who is always the instigator. I think it takes divine intervention to hold back our feelings when some BMs just can't stop the nastiness. At least, SD's clinical team can now see BM's true colors. Even for SD, she knows very well at the back of her mind that you are a very warm lady, its only that she is intimidated by her mother and is torn about expressing it. All the best when you file for primary custody. Things will work out. We're with you all the way.