OSD24 strikes again! This time she sounds borderline.

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Well, happy new year to us! DH sent hand-written notes to his 3 alienated skids over the holidays and of course there is no response from the younger two but the OSD24 just could not help herself. She will never pass up a chance to respond to love with hate. See more here:

http://www.steptalk.org/node/175188

StepAside, thank you for your

StepAside, thank you for your thoughts, and i know your situation is not a pleasant one with your dad and SM. Neither is mine with mine. Mine is closer to non-existent. In yours there are layers and layers of resentments old and new, hurt feelings that were never dealt with appropriately - with a therapist or in any other forum. Communication is key when there are misunderstandings. In my DH's ex-family there is continuous emotional abuse going on - has been going on for years, first the BM was the perpetratr/alienator, now the very worldly and very smart OSD has jumped on that band-wagon. Her letter is made up of lies and false accusations, i explained them on my blog. The theme is the same: it is always your fault, daddy dearest.

Complex as it is, I think we need to deal with this situation on its own merits, without adding our own flavors to it. Counter-transference only clouds the mind.

If it was a woman in the middle of this, who was being victimized by her husband - verbally abused, her money taken away from her, she was told, If you do not give me XYZ, i will divorce you tomorrow - will you advise that she go to therapy with the abuser, listen to him explain how badly her insubordination hurts him, and how she needs to try harder if she wants to earn his love? It is a rhetorical question. When the roles are reversed, what is the difference? They are reveresed in DH's universe. OSD has taken on BM's persona and personality disorder, and continues her dirty work. I called it borderline because she rages in her emails - it is not physical, but a verbal lashing.

Tog writing on my blog, and my sister in law earlier IRL, nailed it: DH is being bullied. The OSD is NPD, abusive and toxic - toxic as in, if you allow her to treat you like that, you will pay in lost peace of mind, lost sleep, diminished self-esteem. You will also play into her hands. This is what she is after: she wants to hurt, badly. She punishes DH, who she knows loves her and has always been there for her, by walking out of his life, and leading the younger two after her like mesmerized cattle. Let DH suffer. He is not worthy of me, says the narcissist. Unlike in your example, DH did NOT miss out on getting to know her, he was always there, at home every night until she turned 18. What he did NOT do was hold her accountable for her actions, such as bullying of her cousin a few years ago when SIL brought it to his attention. She has never been held accountable for anything until i said, You need to start paying off your college loans. Then i was declared the enemy, and DH vilified for not protecting her from me.

The question for me now is, what to do with bullies? Offer them family therapy? I do not think so. I think the answer is, explain what happened, the reasons for your actions, and then steel yourself. DH should tell OSD that her behavior is sick, she is being cruel and hurtful and he is not interested in having a relationship with her until she can apologize and make amends... she needs to change.

While I respect others'

While I respect others' opinions and agree counseling can indeed be extremely beneficial, I don't think that every human conflict has to wind up on a therapist/counselor's couch with a check being written.

What happens when the other daughters want the same thing? Does the father have to go to therapy with each of them? What about this daughter - say she and father go to counseling and resolve problems. Then six months later, daughter decides she's not happy about something her father said/did. Does this mean they go back to the counselor to "resolve" it?

What if while in counseling, it's determined that Pilgrim Soul has some impact on their relationship? Does this mean Pilgrim now has to go in for counseling, too, in order to meet the daughter's demands?

One person's rights end where another's begins. If the daughter wants dialogue only with a therapist present, but father does not, then that's the end of that.

What about an alternative? Can't daughter and father agree to meet, with some basic ground rules? "I will talk for five minutes, uninterrupted, and then you will do the same."

Remember we are talking about adults here, supposedly. I grew up in an era/place where people did not have the means to go to therapy to resolve life's issues. You were pissed at someone? Well, then you told them why. I don't know what this father did that was so terrible. But I do know of fathers who were awful - drunk, abusive and/or absent - yet their children still wanted to maintain a relationship, albeit sometimes at arms-length. Hell, even convicted felons/murderers get visits from their kids and the prison systems support that. So again I say, what did this father do that was so horrible? The daughter doesn't seem to indicate that.

All I know is my father was not a perfect man. And I know I was not a perfect child. But I loved him for all his flaws and faults, and believe he felt the same about me. He never once in his life told me he loved me, but I knew he did. He came from an era where men did not show their feelings easily. I would not have dreamed of expecting him to change to meet the era of "open emotion" and wearing his heart on his sleeve, simply because it might have been what I wanted. That's the case with this OSD, I think. She wants her father to meet her demands/desires - forgetting he is a person in his own right.

The only advice I would give the OSD in this case, is be careful what you decide. The clock is always ticking and people's lives are not finite. If you really care a thing at all about your father, show some respect that he at least reached out to you and stop nit-picking.

Because trust me on this one, once he is dead, you will regret all the wasted time over ridiculous crap you thought was so important.

Well said.

Thank you, 2Tired4Drama. You

Thank you, 2Tired4Drama. You are very wise. I agree with a lot of what you said. The clock is ticking very loudly.

My SD is too narcissistic to hear it or put anyone's needs above her own need for validation. I really believe that it all comes down to her wanting her narc supply like a junkie needs a fix. She counted the sentences in his letter! Who does that? A narcissist! She thinks his lovely Xmas note expressing love was not enough, not an offering worthy of her. He does not provide the narc supply - she has no use for him. Where is the loving bond that ties family members together? DH is just shocked that skids do not seem to love him at all. He never saw it coming. That is PAS of course.

You are right to ask what did he do that was so horrible? According to her many rambling emails earlier, he forgot she did not like certain foods, and he did not pay down her college loans generously enough. That's all! Never mind that he was broke after the divorce. She comes first. She demands unconditional love - even when she is trying to pummel you with all her might and enjoy the sight of you writhing on the ground. Sadistic young woman..

Yes, sharper than a serpent's

Yes, sharper than a serpent's tooth - a story as old as civilization itself. This situation is not going to change unless the daughters do; and there is a slim chance of that.

I would suggest your DH put away any dreams of a healthy relationship with these people. He should back off completely and not engage them, daughters or not. If at some point in their lives they have an epiphany and realize what asses they are, then it would be for him to re-engage - on his terms.

Rather than a relationship counselor, I suggest he go to a grief counselor so he can learn how to treat this as a "death" - because that's what this is. The death of the dream of what his daughers are.

Your priorities (he and yours) are to take care of yourselves. Start doing so. No one else will.

And my experience has been

And my experience has been that there are a lot of terrible therapists out there who will validate their clients as victims, and have poor boundaries to boot. I suspect that us the case here. Pilgrim soul's SD has a sympathetic therapist who validates her right to take her awful father to court and demand payment for her college education. What bullshit!

Very good point ... being

Very good point ... being validated as a "victim" by a therapist could be very addictive. Keeps 'em coming back (and writing checks). Much more lucrative than simply telling a client, "Snap out of it and grow up."

I have seen people go through horrific events and loss in life - and they manage to go on without therapy. Like concentration camp survivors who had better attitudes (and quality of life) than some of the "victims" in younger generations.

Thank you, everyone, for your

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughtful, detailed, responses. I will reply on the blog.
If you want to check back, I will be posting more details and thoughts on this subject today.
It's a snow day around here, and i am taking it easy.

The link is the same: http://www.steptalk.org/node/175188

Sad and unfortunate. Here you

Sad and unfortunate. Here you are willing to get to know children. Children have taken sides for what ever reason and not only are they hurting but you and your husband are also hurting.

You/your husband cannot make any love you or accept your choices, they are what they are. No matter what the ex has done there again, there is not one thing you can do about it. I know it does not seem justified.

My ex had an affair, left me with 2 daughters and basically told me that he would not hassle me for visitation, his girlfriend was not interested in the kids. What kind of man is this? He had a strong bond with my oldest and she blamed me for his leaving even knowing he left for another woman. Somehow she justified everything in in her head.

Sometimes you just have to let it all go and find happiness for yourself.

Thank you for your support,

Thank you for your support, AVR! What a sad situation you describe, but i hope your daughter will figure things out when she is older. Blaming you for your ex leaving is rich! She needs more life experience to be able to see this for what it is.

Your ex does not sound like a good father, which is sad for your girls. My DH, on the other hand, has never lost interest in his kids, was as devoted to them as you can get, never left his abusive wife - sacrificed his own happiness for the sake of the kids'. Wasn't worth! You are so right about letting it go and just being happy.

Hideous! Haha! Thank you, i

Hideous! Haha! Thank you, i rest my case. But had you met her in person, you would LOVE her! I know i did. My mother did. Everyone does - until the claws come out and she throws you under the bus... and then drives the bus over you again and again and again and again.

DH is deep into his magical thinking: he wants the skids to suddenly turn nice and warm and fuzzy. He is not really in denial any more, thank god. He was a year ago. Now he is waiting to get the court ruling and may be use that ( if there is anything in it to indicate his moral victory) to reach out to his kids again. I see it as futile now. I think he needs to call their bluff and name the issue - cruelty, bullying, condescension, social isolation, relational aggression - thank you for that one, StepAside! - and stay away. My SIL agrees. She thinks it's great the BM lost leverage by alienating them as she used to harass him via them. Now let them all stew in their scorpion juices!

Step, you described my DH

Step, you described my DH perfectly! He loved the attention that he got when his kids and I were against each other - he loved it!!! Right again, DH didn't not feel comfortable being honest with me until we went to counseling 2 years ago when I was ready to walk away.

Since counseling DHs actions have proven to me that he is trying, but to me, he's not trying hard enough. His kids still treat me like shit and he does nothing. Me - I have opened my mouth moreso and told them that I will not tolerate their shit - give it to their mom!

I agree with you - if my DH set boundaries 10 years ago, I truly believe that we would not be this angry at Christmas or other holidays. Seriously, my DH has no balls!!!

Since I have disengaged, I don't remind him of birthdays, anniversaries, parties, etc., nor do I post them on my calendar. That's not my job - that's his. Shit flew so many times when DH forgot birthdays and yes, it was my fault. It's not - they're not my family!

We're going through something right now (I will be posting later) and I truly believe that DH is "finally seeing the light" on how his golden eggs are.

BTW - counseling taught us how to communicate our feelings/words on paper then we would read each other's thoughts then "talked". It helped tremendously; it still does. After this weekend, my notebook and pen are already!

Good luck!

I think that I need to do as

I think that I need to do as stepaside says, let my dh see the flaws. It certainly will not help my relationship to point out how he is being manipulated....again. Yes......there is new contact after almost a year. Dh called ex to demand proof of payments over some things......he stated that he had been to his lawyer and was considering court to end the game of support. Well......ex put daughter on phone who made nice with daddy and is being so kind as to call him tonight to give him further information..
This go round I am determined to keep my nose out of it. I clearly see the dynamics that exist between them. It is NOT my role to fix it, or even point it out to dh. I need to focus on MY relationship with my husband.