SDs and dating expectations/chivalry

DH, SD16, and I went to spin class and dinner together on Tuesday, her first time at Spin. She did great! She is thin but lazy, so we've been encouraging her to get more active.

Anyway, when we were at dinner, SD16 was telling us how she doesn't like her journalism teacher because he is sexist. I asked what he did that was sexist. She said "He sometimes talks to us about dating. Like how the boy should open doors for you!"

I told her that wasn't sexist, many people view that as mannerly or chivalrous. Her argument is that it takes more time for her to wait for him to open it.

Then she said "AND he thinks that the man should pay for the date! We should split it! It's only fair" DH said "I agree, you should split it with the guy if you ever go on a date" :jawdrop:

I said "Excuse me, no you should not. If a gentleman asks you out, he should pay for the date. If you enjoy yourself and want to go on a second date, you can split that one." SD16 was arguing that since you both agree to go out, you should both pay, and DH was all for it! I said "DH, don't you want SD16 to be treated like a princess and cared for?" He said "No, too many girls are told that they are special and deserve to be treated special, it should be equal". They were both telling me I was old fashioned. I told them maybe I am old fashioned (although I'm only 28), but I believe in manners! SD also mentioned she should pay because "then she doesn't owe the guy anything". Hell no. I made sure to say loud and clear "No matter what happens, you don't owe a guy ANYTHING. If he pays, if you pay, if you split it, you do not owe him a thing. You don't owe him a kiss, or anything else, understood?"

I ended the conversation because I didn't want to argue, but this is something I feel strongly about. When I was single, I wouldn't go out with a guy if he texted me only and didn't call. I don't even like talking on the phone, but if you want to take me out, you can call me. I would never pay on the first date (or probably the second or third), and DH certainly picked up the tab when we started dating. Once we were "official" I started splitting more, and now that he is laid off I pay for almost everything.

What do you guys think? Am I being too old fashioned? I want SD16 to be cherished when she finds a boyfriend. I want him to come to the door to pick her up, not just honk the horn. I want him to call her to see how she is, not just text "How R u". I want him to open her car door and the restaurant door.

DH courted me. He took me to a nice restaurant on our first date and payed the bill. He almost always opens my car door (even to this day) and opens doors for me. Why wouldn't he want the same for his daughter(s)?

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Biking! I road bike to/from

Biking!
I road bike to/from work every day, all year.
On my bike about 1 hr 45 min per day with some crazy hill climbs.
It's addicting.

SPD cleats will help once you get used to them and if you ride a lot, you'll get those leg/butt muscles in shape!
Just keep up with your abs (will help with your overall balance/upper body support on the bike so less weight in your hands) and arm strength.

Shoes are "european size" so make sure you look at a conversion chart. Like all shoes, every brand fits differently, but I find them pretty close overall and wear a size 40 bike shoe.

Bike clothes are mostly cut small. I always order a size up on those.

Have fun!

you are not old fashioned.

you are not old fashioned. If he wants to go out with her bad enough, he'll make a good impression and call, open doors, and PAY for the date.

I'm old fashioned. If I go out with a guy and he waits for me to feel uncomfortable enough to get my wallet out when the check comes, we never go out again.

HAHA I do too.. and I was

HAHA I do too.. and I was kind of scared! What the hell is wrong with me????

I have seen so much nonsense with girls expecting these new "promposal" things.. where the guy has to get all crazy creative and buy flowers candy and make this huge deal over asking a girl to the prom? Get over your damn self! And let's remember we're talking about high school kids with a limited income so why should the guy be expected to pay for everything just because he's the guy?

Don't get me wrong, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being chivalrous, pleasant, mannerly BUT in this entitlement generation? I applaud your SD for not being one of the "typical" SD's we deal with, who think they are entitled to Louis Vuitton and diamond studded boots.

Though there is something

Though there is something pretty prostitute-y about saying the guy should pay since I agreed to go on a date with him. How is that not prostitute-y? The guy is paying for a girl's time in this case, just not her body.

Right and according to the

Right and according to the rules of "courting" part of getting to know you is spending money on you. That is the definition of prostitution.

You can say it's part of your culture, which is absolutely true since most cultures place value on men paying. However that doesn't mean it isn't on face value prostitute-y.

You agree to go out with a man. You do not pay for anything on this date because he should pay to get to know you. Your presence is enough whereas he needs to put money behind it. Just because you are not receiving the money directly, rather having it spent on you, doesn't mean that is not what is going on.

I have had men pay and I have paid, however, they are never expected or required to pay for the pleasure of getting to know me, otherwise I'll brand them as not gentlemen.

Fair enough. I'll stick to

Fair enough. I'll stick to not whoring myself out for a free meal and telling men they need to buy me. Others can remain free to be "courted" as they want.

So we're even. You can't

So we're even. You can't grasp how requiring a man to pay to get to know you is pretty similar to prostitution. The fact that he paid a movie attendant rather than giving you the $10 doesn't change that you required that.

I will date anybody who will

I will date anybody who will pay my bills. Oh, wait, that's BM. Never mind.

Anyway, men should be respectful, women should be independent. DH opens doors for me (even 19 years later) because he wants to, not because I'm a helpless princess and he doesn't think I can handle it.

How men treat us when we first start dating (and continue to treat us) is an indication of how respectful they are, in general. DH is a nice guy, who respects people (that's how he was raised); he opens doors for everybody if he has the opportunity, even men.

^^^This^^^ I think a woman

^^^This^^^

I think a woman can be independent without emasculating a guy who happens to have been raised with manners. Manners are an outward demonstration of respect and consideration, not an indictment of someone's possible ulterior motives.

Dating is all about researching potential partners, isn't it? I think this young lady needs a better understanding of the nuances of dating and courtship. If she wants to offer to pay her way, fine - but she should do it with class and graciousness. I dated quite a bit in my day; I had high standards, even if we were on a pizza-and-beer date. Only once did I encounter a guy who expected quid pro quo, and I shut that down cold.

I look at it this way, the

I look at it this way, the Steve Harvey way: Men are paying for your time and costs to get ready for the date. Not to mention the salary discrepancy between the genders. I am a very independent woman but I consider it poor manners if the male doesn't pay on first, and a few more subsequent dates.

Yes, she should expect to be treated like a lady. We women treat our men like kings in different ways.

One my first date with socially awkward DH, I stood outside my door and finally went over and tapped on the window to let him know that I was waiting for him to open my door. I've not opened a door in DH'S presence since.

I once told a very handsome

I once told a very handsome kid who showed up in my driveway and "beeped" for my then 15 year old daughter to come outside that if he wanted her to leave the house, he would need to get off his ass, walk up to my door, introduce himself to me, look me in the eye and shake my hand.

He sheepishly did just that and dated her for the next three years - lol!!

I am OLD SCHOOL when it comes to this. My DH is so old school that he puts me on the inside when we are walking near a street It's just one of the many reasons he makes me swoon!!

Southern men have not

Southern men have not cornered the market on manners and respect.

The person who asks pays for

The person who asks pays for the date. With true equality a woman does not have to wait to be asked on a date. She can ask the guy.

But a lot of it depends on the culture in which you are living. We live in two cities. In one if I invite a girlfriend for lunch I pay for both of us and vice versa. In my other city if I invite someone for lunch or she invites me we each get separate checks. And those are not dates - just friends having lunch.

It's always so strange to me

It's always so strange to me that women expect to be catered to with money, time, attention and men who don't of it are not considered "respectful".

I earn a living and am independent. I do not need nor want a man to pay for me in life. That is not the same as a man treating you to dinner because sure why not since you can treat him as well.

It's not about respect. It's about the man somehow being required to do the heavy lifting of romance. Women don't need to do anything, the men have to be romantic and entertain them. It reeks of being a gimme pig who thinks men should pay for the honor of dating them.

I think your SD is absolutely correct, she should pay for herself unless the guy really wants to pay for her. If he doesn't it's not necessarily about respect. And when she is old enough to get married hopefully she will find some she cherishes just as much as he cherishes her rather than just expecting him to do all the work of a romantic relationship.

I would never ask a man out

I would never ask a man out on a date.

I expect a man to help me on with my coat, doors to be opened for me, etc. I expect the man to pay for dates until we are seriously established (engaged) - with a conversation about household funds. I don't expect to live with someone until I'm engaged. I'm a lady - if you can't treat me like one, you don't deserve me. I didn't think I was that out of touch.

I can guarantee you if i was expected to split the cost of the date - there would not be another one.

I am raising DS13 to do the same.

Here in the south women don't

Here in the south women don't pay on dates 1-10001. We have been married for almost ten years and dh will not let me pull out my wallet at a restaurant even though we have a joint account. Men hold the door, and on the first date will open the car door.

Huh? What does money doesn't

Huh? What does money doesn't equal respect mean? No one said anything about respect or lack of respect.

I have no idea how that means you're not equal partners because your man is a southern gentleman. We are equal parts straight down to bring 50/50 owners in our business.

Exactly. I paid every year on

Exactly. I paid every year on his bday. That's it.

"I will tell my boys to find

"I will tell my boys to find a nice northern girl who is an equal partner." LOLOL

I'm right there with you.

I find it amazing that on a site where people complain about SDs who have been raised to think they are princesses, they are entitled ...that there are so many who seem to agree with that view.

My son is a respectful, well-mannered young man. I hope he runs like the wind if he ever encounters all those young ladies who are being taught that a man should take care of them. :sick:

Even when the guys say it's

Even when the guys say it's their treat, it has never been in a negative way.

I just function as if men are people who should be respected as well. They do not need to pay for my time. They do not need to pay for me to hang out with them. They do not need to agree to be taken advantage of financially to hang out with me.

I think whoever really wants

I think whoever really wants to pay should pay. Your friend can be uncomfortable but it's once again coming from the idea that in order to be considered a good guy he is required to spend money on a woman. When I think that's a social creation that need not be adhered to.

As you said yourself, your friend will treat you to lunch even though you are not dating, that shows a generous spirit. That is not a requirement for just men. I treat my friends to lunch or dinner sometimes, men or women. That's just called being a friend. If I was dating a generous person I would be far more likely to want to pay and insist on it because I want that person to feel appreciated given that they are always so generous.

That's really sweet. I

That's really sweet. I definitely think generous people should be rewarded for their generosity rather than taken advantage of.

Anotherstep - Suzanne

Anotherstep - Suzanne Sugarbaker agrees with you.

In an episode of Designing Women the ladies were talking about things that really upset them. Suzanne said she hated it when men used women's liberation as an excuse not to kill bugs. Her often quoted line was "The man should have to kill the bugs."

I'm as liberated as they come, but if there is a man around I do expect him to kill or remove the bugs. If I am alone, I can take care of them myself.

Now we take turns picking up the check, though he still will say 'no, I'll get that'.