Last visit and latest drama
DH and I made the 4 hour drive out of state about 3 weeks ago to visit SD and SGK...I always dread the visits because for the last year or so SD20, her husband and the baby have been living with BM. BM is polite and nice, but she engages DH in strolls down memory lane and I feel like a 3rd wheel.
Anyway, I've sucked it up so we can see the baby, 16 months old. But we have had words about me feeling uncomfortable with it, so DH is aware I think it's effed up to go to his exwife's house for any reason.
DH is very immature and can be manipulating. To me, it's obvious. She uses her baby talk high pitched voice when she's trying to manipulate and this is the dead giveaway.
This is what happened when she sent a video message to her dad the first morning of our visit. "Mom said, if you want to, you can come with us to grandma and grandpa's house for grandma's birthday today."
We plan our visits in advance to be sure they don't have plans and because that's what adults do. But I wake up to this BS that it's her mom's mother's birthday and surprise! We're invited!
My DH was white as a ghost when he approached me about going to his ex-in laws house. I told him it's a F*$ked up situation. I ranted about it for a few minutes and he said, well we want to see the baby and that's where she will be.
So....we went.
I was in such a state of shock or else I would have suggested we see them after their visit at the grandparents house. Or I would have just told DH to go without me, but in all honesty, I didn't want him to do that.
As per usual, before we leave town, all of us, meaning DH, myself, SD20, her husband and the baby go have brunch. I feel that's f#$ked up as well.
I know part of the problem is me not being able to think on the spot, but I honestly feel like DH should be a bit more uncomfortable about it , too. Am I off base here?
Empathy
I would have a hard time going to BM's mother's house, too. I'm assuming you're home now so good thing if it's all over. If I remember correctly, your DH's health made it necessary for you to go. I hope he's doing ok. Just tell yourself it's over for awhile now. Maybe next time, SD will realize that dad shouldnt be traveling and make the trip herself.
Thank you
Thank you so much! My DH doesn't have any serious health issues, fortunately, so could be you're thinking of someone else...
I would rather SD make the trip to visit, but she hasn't learned to drive yet...and looks like she's in no rush to learn.
I'm glad our trips are no longer than 2 or 3 days...I struggle with a couple of days as it is.
You have fun you hear? no
You have fun you hear? no way would I have gone. Shoot.. I avoid my own MIL.. I am not hanging around with my Ex's mother..lol.
And.. he didn't have to go either.. he could have found when they were coming home and seent hem then?
Yes!
In perfect hindsight, I wish I had said that we could see them after they got back.
I mean, who does that? Honestly?
I told him right then how messed up it seems to me. My friends validate my thinking but he thinks I'm jealous or too sensitive. Either of those may be true, but the situation is still a smokin hot mess, IMHO.
I know if this comes up again I'll have to let him know that even if he doesn't care for or respect me enough to know that going to his ex in-laws is not a comfortable situation for me that I care for and respect myself enough to know its ok to say no. I have to practice my boundaries...I'm not good at it yet, but I'm learning as this circus goes on.
You're not wrong
Honestly, you're not wrong.
I enjoy seeing the baby, but I can't really enjoy it as much in that setting.
I feel like he's guilting me into going when I am telling him how crazy it is that anyone should go.
I told him his daughter, his exwife and anyone else who says I should be ok with this kind of thing should have to go spend time with their ex and their family along with their current SO. He laughed and said it was crazy and messed up, but to see the baby.... I don't think its worth it to me.
I am just trying to wrap my
I am just trying to wrap my head around how your husband thinks this is okay, in any way, to expect you to put up with this crap.
He needs to get a set of balls and stop letting his daughter use her kid to manipulate him. And he, in turn, is using that to manipulate you.
"well we want to see the baby and that's where she will be." He banked on you not arguing that point, when, in fact, you guys could've seen the baby after the party.
BM certainly does not need to be going out to brunch with you guys, either.
He laughed and said it was crazy and messed up, but to see the baby...
Bullshit. ^^^^ I would stop going with him on these trips.
Impossible
I think it's impossible to wrap your head around because it's not a normal situation.
When I've tried to talk about it, DH blows it off, says I'm too sensitive or jealous, blah, blah, blah...
I might be, but the situation is still messed up and I feel like he doesn't get it.
I have needed validation to really know I'm not overreacting. I honestly feel like I've done my due diligence in going and participating like I have and it's enough.
When SD and her husband get their own place, I'll go. But I do not want BM to come out to eat with us and U don't want to hang out with her.
If we're at an appropriate function like the baby's birthday, then there's no reason we can't be nice and polite. That's reasonable and normal. But beyond that, not necessary.
He definitely needs to get some balls and man up. How can he not see he's being manipulated? I know he's manipulated me and I'm the one who has to stop it.
Thank you!
FWIW
You are absolutely, definitely, without the shadow of a doubt, not overreacting!
This would be a hill to die on for me
Next time there's a trip on the cards, refuse to go. Tell him that he can go play house with his ex without you. Then wait for that to sink in before adding, because nobody in their right minds would want to spend so much time with their ex if there wasn't an ulterior motive. Tell him that he can find ways of seeing the baby without having to drag his ex around all the time if he truly wanted to. Stick to your guns and do not go. Have a nice time at home alone - do fun things with friends!
I'm going to have to
For my own sanity I am going to have to do just that.
It's hard to hang on to my dignity when I go and have to hang out with BM and just witness the circus. I never did like clowns, why should I be one?
Thank you!
"Have a nice time at home
"Have a nice time at home alone..."
I'd take a separate trip by myself.
Yes!
Yes! This is exactly what I've thought!
DH has tried to bring up that we see my ex...but he's not understanding that its only when a kid is involved and it's necessary. We do go over there and just hang out. We don't go to restaurants together. We go to school open house or plays or school concerts or something like that. And even then. I've never sat with him and his wife.
He's come to our house or we've gone over there when we needed to meet with one of the kids together. We do that and move on.
Thank you for how you worded this...its going to help me when this comes up again, and I have a feeling it will be soon. Yesterday was his birthday and when I put his cake in front of him and told him to make a wish, he said he wishes he could see his family more. Being that last year he was often away from home for work, I said "you're home every night now to see us"....and he said "I'd like to see the rest of my family, too." That usually means we're going to make a trip to visit. Well this time he will be on his own unless he can work with me and we agree on boundaries before hand.
If he goes on his own, that's ok. I don't manage his life or control him. If he wants me with him, he's going to have to compromise and make adjustments to how things are done.
A few tricks I have learned.
Saying "how would you feel if the situation were reversed " can help tremendously. Comparing going to a kids basketball game and seeing the ex partner there and traveling out of state and visiting at the ex partners home is definitely NOT on a par. Also it's not wrong to say " now that we've tried this a few times, something needs to change" sometimes you think you can tolerate something only to find out you have very little tolerance for it. These are called boundaries and a respectful partner will consider your feelings as well. Is it possible to rent two rooms? Where sd could come stay yet be separate? Then you at least could get some quality as well as quantity time with her (or baby) which yea I can't see this going well down the road with this baby being the center of everyone's universe (my family had similar enmeshment btw)
I can't recall the age of SD or if you mentioned it but she sounds young and it could be good for her to get some one on one practice in on parenting.
How would you feel
I've asked how he would feel and he has said "I'd be fine with it, I really like your ex and have respect for him. He's a good guy." But of course he hasn't had to sit there for hours on end and listen to me and my ex banter back and forth, talking about people DH doesn't know, leaving him no room to participate in the conversation.
I definitely like the "now that we've tried this..." I will definitely use this!
Hopefully SD and her husband can get a place of their own soon. Before they moved in with BM they had an apartment, but they didn't like the location and neighbors were loud. So they planned to save money and live with BM. But they haven't saved anything because they don't make much and blow what they have. They aren't independent yet and SD doesn't seem too interested in being independent and self sufficient. She's not interested in driving, even. No one is really pushing to her the fact that she has a baby, a 16 month old, that she has to think of and be prepared to take care of. And taking care of her child means more than watching cartoons with her and posting pictures on social media.
SD is 20...she's not motivated to work or go to school or anything. She wants to be taken care of, but her husband is honestly white trash and is 19. They are both very young and have a lot of growing up to do.
I feel like trying to explain my feelings and the position I am in is like talking to a door knob....he doesn't seem to understand or doesn't want to understand. But I have come to the point that something has to change for my sake. And if my husband can't or won't work with me to do what's best for me, then I will. Everyone has their breaking point.
I have had my share of events
I have had my share of events in the last 30 years, where I had to sit in the same room as BM. SD's wedding, SGkid's Christenings and other religious events and graduations. We drew the line at Birthdays. We just bowed out of those and eventually they stopped inviting us, which was fine because it was one less event to be feeling uncomfortable at.
My DH's divorce to BM was not really amicable, so he has a difficult time feigning civility around her. He basically ignores her when we're lumped together so she directs her attention towards me. I have never found her to be particularly offensive, but really, that's not the point. If my DH divorced her, it was for a good reason. They got a divorce because they were in agreement that they did not want to spend their time together, so it seems ridiculously hypocritical to "pretend" that everyone is still one big happy family when we all get together for an obligatory family event. Therefore, my DH will avoid any event that she will be at, as much as possible. As his DD's are adults, he told them that when they started planning "family" events which included both DH and BM. Whether they choose to disagree or be angry with my DH's decision to attend or not attend an event based on his ex-wife's attendance, that was/is their problem. He's an adult. He makes the call.
Your SD is an adult. She does not need to see a united front when it comes to her mummy and daddy. She knows that they are divorced. People divorce for a reason. She needs a reality check if she keeps trying to put everyone in the same room.
I think that you and your DH need to sit down and decide what events are reasonable for you to both attend (as you are a married couple) and which ones are not. You need to set parameters. If you've been invited to see the baby, the TWO of YOU need to make and stick to your agreed plan. It should preclude involving DH's Ex in any way or any surprise Pop-Up invitations that you did not prepare for. You are married to each other. You both have to feel comfortable in how and with whom you socialize. If socializing with a family that has absolutely no place in your life makes you uncomfortable, you need to let your DH know that this is not acceptable. You need to ask him; if he got divorced from his ex-wife (and therefore her family, ie, Ex-Mother-in-Law, Ex-Sister-in-law, etc.), then what in the world would make him think that you would want to be part of that group? You already have in-laws and your own bio family. Do you really need to have a family of...what do you even call that relationship... Step-Ex-Inlaws? There is no such thing, for good reason!
In my opinion.
You describe my situation to a T
My DH was single for many years (about 20 I think) so that's a lot of time to get used to the status quo on his exes and kids side. These people are in their late 30's up to mid 40's and it feels like they are only just now coming to terms with their parents divorce. Really? Part of it is my DH, he is a giver and they are all takers along with the ex (BM). You wouldn't believe the ripple that went through their world when I "joined the family" and made it clear that "oh no BM is not invited to events hosted by us.....from birthdays to Xmas that's a hard NOPE" they invite her to every single get together or extra curricular activity, from soccer games to 4th of July. DH let them know that not only would we no longer attend together but he would come alone to anything she is included in an hour before she does. This of course doesn't include milestone events like weddings and graduations, yet because of the kids insistence that momma be included in everything I now excuse myself from everything and feel no guilt whatsoever. I remind myself, I'm just "dads wife" and that's fine with me!
DH is very immature and can
Interesting Freudian slip :-P
"For the baaaaabbbbyyyyy."
"For the baaaaabbbbyyyyy." That's b.s. The baby doesn't care.
Your DH has no boundaries, so you need to have some for yourself. It's really troubling that he won't have a conversation with you without making YOU the problem (jealous, insecure, whatever). His need to be SD's doormat is far more important than your discomfort.
You're right, you can't stop him from doing what he's going to do. But that doesn't mean you have to participate. Don't think of them as "winning" if you don't go. Turn that around -- don't you think they "win" when you are miserable and excluded when BM and DH do the Memory Lane trip?
Take care of yourself. Nobody else is.
I've tried to tell DH SGD is
I've tried to tell DH SGD is too young to remember right now and doesn't care. He goes on about how she won't remember who he is because we live in another state, blah, blah, blah.
I have tried to understand why my feelings don't matter and I can't come up with an answer. But the bottom line is for my own sake, I just shouldn't go. At least not until SD20 and family move out of BM's house. And when that does happen, I need assurance that BM won't be invited when we go out to eat. Otherwise, it's best I don't go at all. I can't win and its not so much about winning as it is the twisted satisfaction SD gets from it. It's not normal to treat someone who has been nothing but good to you like that.
When I've tried to talk about
When I've tried to talk about it, DH blows it off, says I'm too sensitive or jealous, blah, blah, blah...
I might be, but the situation is still messed up and I feel like he doesn't get it.
No, he gets it. He just doesn't care how you feel or how it affects you.
Step-ex-in-laws
Ex-step-in-laws is a mouth full and you're exactly right, it doesn't exist for a reason.
My understanding is that their divorce and custody issues and all that has been ugly over the years, but I encouraged him to develop a working relationship with his ex for the kids. The oldest had just graduated high school when we met and SD was 14, now 20. Over the past 2-3 years, their relationship has improved and is now on a level that I'm not comfortable with, as DH's wife.
There was a situation several years ago where SD physically assaulted her mom (not something she had done before or to our knowledge had shown signs of) and took off with her boyfriend (now husband). BM called DH and told him what happened and we went and found SD and took her home. After that, there was some more drama, but it seems like it was a turning point in the relationship with DH and BM.
BM quickly became comfortable enough to share intimate details with DH. One evening DH reached out to BM to check on SD because she wasn't returning his calls and texts. Well, the conversation led to BM telling DH that her boyfriend of like 10 years cheated on her. I told DH it was TMI and he said she probably just needed a friend. I told him she needs to find other friends. Since then I have felt that was crossing a line because it's not appropriate to share that kind of info with your ex. I told DH it wasn't appropriate and he didn't seem to really get it. But at any rate, now I'm uncomfortable as he'll with the whole thing. I don't trust BM's motives after that. I think DH is either ignorantly oblivious or maybe he enjoys it.
I hate having this conversation with DH because he makes it seem like I'm overreacting, but I'm not. I know I'm not.
I've care enough about him and his relationships with his daughter and granddaughter and his feelings and him wanting me to be there with him to sit through the torture over and over again. But its not something I want to keep doing. Why would I stick my hand in a fire when I already know it burns?
I would stop having the
I would stop having the conversation with him, he just uses it to gaslight you and turn everything around. And lie, as I don't believe for one minute he would want to hang out and do brunch with YOUR ex.
You have told him how you feel, now, it's time to just take action. Stop going. At this point, you don't even need to give him an explanation or discuss it, that just leads to him manipulating you.
He's taking advantage of the fact that you care about his feelings and his relationship with his daughter and granddaughter, while he doesn't give a crap about your feelings. He has taken advantage of your encouragement to have a working relationship with his ex. He's selfish.
If he and his daughter are truly invested in their relationship, and his relationship with his granddaughter, they will find another way, without BM in the middle. This is ridiculous.
I'm definitely over trying to
I'm definitely over trying to talk about it because I end up feeling like the bad guy.
I think just telling him that I'm not going until SD has her own place or until there is another place to get together besides BM's house is the best thing for me.
I've recently read a bit about gaslighting and you're right...that's what he's doing to me.
I have seen over the past year and a half that I'm not the priority, despite what he says or thinks. His actions tell me otherwise.
Despite what he says, I'm not overly sensitive about this. I'm rational and know I have gone above and beyond but its not tolerable for me.
" he said she probably just
" he said she probably just needed a friend"
"DH, you can be so naive. Why do you think a woman would share this kind of information with a man she used to f@ck? What kind of a "friend" do you think she's looking for?"
" he said she probably just
" he said she probably just needed a friend"
I would have replied, "Then, she should get one."
My reaction
My reaction was just that! I told him she needed to find another friend because my husband, her ex, was not the one.
We women know how women are...and we know why some women say things like that. It doesn't take an xray machine to see through that bullsh!t
And I've been pissed about it ever since it happened. And everything that has happened after that is just adding to the old of pissed off that I've been carrying around. Every visit has compounded it.
Another example is Christmas. Their household postponed holiday celebrations because they were all sick. We planned to visit and bring their gifts when they were all feeling better. Well, SD tells us her mom is making Christmas dinner for us when we come. DH knew I was not happy when I said WTF? I don't want her to make dinner for me.
He says it's all jealousy on my part, but its also just insane. Who does that?
I am not a rude person and it takes a lot to push me to the point of getting angry, but this is doing it. I don't like myself like that.
Just stop going. He's a big
Just stop going. He's a big boy and he can take care of himself. You can see the baby via Zoom (or other) or when your SD grows up enough to actually visit you. This isn't worth the hassle. BTW, if he goes and elects to stay at BM's, inform him that the divorce papers will be waiting for him when he returns.
PS
Have yoiu ever considered marital counselling about this? A third party telling him that nightmares are made of the stuff you're putting up with might just get through to him.
I asked him
I asked him about it and at first he agreed, said he'd do anything I wanted...then he changed his mind and said he didn't feel like he needs counseling, that he's an adult and knows the difference between right and wrong. I said I thought maybe it would help us communicate better. He said I should just talk to him... Then he said maybe I could go first and see how it was.
Yeah, I don't know if he will ever go, but I'm going to go. Just have to schedule around work.
Funny thing is I told him a long time ago when he asked about my first marriage that my ex didn't seem to hear me out, understand or care enough to try to understand....and he refused to go to counseling until I was done...he was ready then, but it was too late by that time.
Yes, he does know the
Yes, he does know the difference between right and wrong but since he is trying to convince you that there is nothing wrong with what he expects from you in this situation, he certainly does not want to hear a counselor confirm that you are not overreacting.
Yeah, you're right. SD20
Yeah, you're right. SD20 used to do nightly video calls with DH and I. She does them much less frequently now and only DH is called. I usually pop my head in by DH and say hi nowadays.
Would you be surprised if I told you BM has offered to have us stay at her place?! Hell would freeze over before I'd do that.
When DH goes to visit, if he stays there, there will definitely be divorce papers waiting for him when he gets back.
Exactly!!!
Exactly!!! Thats the first thing that popped in my head! Women know how women are! That was bullshit to tell him that...I'm thinking she should have just sent him an invitation to hop back in bed with her!
It's called "evolution". We
It's called "evolution". We humans and our relationships with each other are constantly evolving.
So, you said that you encouraged a relationship between your DH and his ex for the sake of the teenage kids. Fine. I get that. However, just as the relationship that developed between the diaper service and your DH came to an end, once his kids were out of their diapers, so too must the relationship that was developed to necessitate the rearing of his teenage children. His children are no longer teenagers, so he no longer needs to collude/discuss/fraternize with his ex-wife. That relationship is now unnecessary. It's fine that they are civil to each other, because that will make weddings and funerals less awkward. But, in my opinion, that's where it should end. She needs to find friends to confide in. Not your husband. DH needs to know, understand and ADHERE to some boundaries where his ex is concerned. Don't be afraid to tell him how you are feeling, and don't let him spin this back on to you as being your problem. It's his problem. He needs to make adjustments because neither one of you should be willing to accept unwelcome interferences in your relationship.
Amen to that
I soooo want to get through to the man to make him realize this! He probably does know this on some level, though. Surely he has to.
My ex and I are nice to each other when we have to be around each other. But I don't go to him with any issues outside what involve the kids. I have no reason to. And he's the last person I'd talk to about my relationship problems!
So, I'm gradually seeing some things that cast a new light on everything. I might be way off base, but I honestly wonder about their feelings for each other, DH and BM.
I am someone who usually likes to have evidence to prove something, like hard, concrete proof, but his and her actions should speak loud and clear, right?
If he gives a rats a$$ about me, he would try to find another solution to this situation and cut BM out of the picture.
If BM isn't harboring more than mutual respect and consideration, why go to the trouble of making dinner and wanting to go to restaurants with us? She has a boyfriend (not the one that cheated on her) but still....
I guess I have to acknowledge there may be underlying unresolved feelings.
Gaslighter.
Gaslighter.
That's what your husband is.
Don't go to any of these "occasions"
Do your own thing, meet friends, plan nice outings etc...
If he questions you about why you're not going, just say that you have already discussed this and he has chosen to ignore/marginalise your feelings. Therefore you are not going to discuss it any further.
Yeah...I'm seeing that and
Yeah...I'm seeing that and its awful because he wasn't like this before. It really came as a surprise to me.
Hopefully I can figure out how to deal with it and keep my sanity
Your DH is extremely disappointing.
He has little to no demonstrated testicular fortitude. He kisses shallow and polluted failed family breeding experiement ass to "see the (GSkid)", he doesn't tell his X to stay TF home while he has lunch with HIS family. He does not demonstrate firmly and positively that he and you are partners and everyone else will respect that.
I feel for you.
Good luck.
Thank you
I really appreciate all the input. I've needed validation and insight ans I find that and thr support I need. Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees but you all can and I feel like that helps me plot a map to get to where I need to be.
No matter the step kids age, its a tough road dealing with all the dynamics and personalities and dysfunction.
I have started speaking up more for myself and am gaining the confidence to stand my ground and dig my heels in. One thing I didn't mention was at the last visit BM mentioned taking the SGK to Disney with she's older, as a "family" vacation. Later when we were alone, I told DH now way in hell was that happening. He started to defend the idea but I shut it down and made it clear that's not my idea of a vacation and I won't be going, if it ever happens.
Last night we were talking about a weekend away, just the 2 of us. He mentioned a place we used to go, but its only about an hour away from where SD, BM and SGK are...I told him no, because we will end up going to see them and that's not a couples weekend away. He almost immediately suggested somewhere else....maybe he will grasp that I am enforcing some boundaries and setting standards.
Its babysteps.
I can't thank you all enough!
Brunch with SD
I know I've told this before but the last time we were in SD's area for a family wedding DH invited SD to brunch before we left town. She showed up with herself, her BF, 3 GKs, BF's parents, and BF's brother. We paid for breakfast for 10 and of course she picked a place with a bar for Bloody Mary's. So then the bill for breakfast was $400 instead of $200. Typical SD.
$$$
Oh, definitely! We pay for everyone, too. Brunch usually runs about $10.00 per person, but dinner has been well over $200, depending where we go. It's insane! Sometimes BM orders a couple of pizzas when we're there, but honestly I'd rather have fast food without her sitting there beside me.
Oh, and speaking of Disney,
Oh, and speaking of Disney, some years ago SD was talking about taking her two oldest to Disney before they got too old. She's missed that train because they're 17 & 15 now and never went but at the time they were 12 & 10. I know DH took SD when she was 9, just the two of them. He struggled back then as a single dad with nothing from BM except paying off the bills she left him with. But it was important to him and he set aside some money.
She was talking about taking them to the most expensive Disney resort hotel etc. It's all talk, she's full of it. And DH commented about taking her when she was little and she says, "Yeah, but not really." Because if it's not 1st class it doesn't count with her.
I would have kicked in some money for her to take her kids if she wasn't such a bitch to her dad.
Just no
I'm saying no, just no, to Disney. If DH wants to contribute to the cost for SGK, fine...give her a few hundred, but I'm not going to torture myself and call it a vacation. Especially since I've been begging for a weekend getaway, just the 2 of us, for over 2 years now. I told DH hell would freeze before I go to Disney with them before I even get a weekend.
He actually told me to pick a weekend my kids are at their dad's and plan it, but the way it was said was too full of mirth...if he's not into spending a weekend away with me as a couple, then I honestly don't even want to go. I want him to want it, too. But I can't make him and that's fine...I'm not going to try to make him.
Ugh, I wish I had known I was going to feel like yesterday's trash when sgk came along and that BM coming back into the picture after years of extremely little contact was going to look like this. I love the man, but I didn't sign up for this. I'll carry on for a bit, but I know me and I know I can only take so much of feeling less than.
I started counseling yesterday and I'm really glad I did.