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Story: Is parental alienation a mental disorder?

lastchance's picture

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39463768/ns/health-mental_health?ns=health-m...

Sorry if this has been posted before...I don't always pay attention...

Comments

aggravated1's picture

Isn't PAS more a by-product of the adult's behavior than the child's, though?

You are under the assumption that a kid just needs more TIME? When the other parent is the one turning the child against the other parent? I don't understand your reasoning. How much time do you think is needed? Enough time until the kid has no relationship with the other parent at all?

We are looking at 6 years and counting, and I can promise you,more TIME is not the answer.

Also, there are a lot of syndromes that are not genetically based or hereditary. That basis alone does not determine whether something is a valid disorder or not.

mommyofboy's picture

We have 3 boys and the oldest is my step son. We've been through this alienation process, and have read a lot on it. Only a parent who is a narcisist, can hurt their child in this manner and not feel bad. Trust me, even when told they are hurting their child by not letting them visit with visiting family cause its not our week, is only going to hurt the child! In so many ways she uses her boy to hurt others. He has told us for 3 months, he didn't want to visit with us anymore and only wanted to live with his BM. About 3 months, and only 1 visit each month, we were able to see that he wasn't doing it out of Love for his mother, but out of fear from her. Not that she would hurt him physically, but her feelings. Our boy is 9, and he feels he has to take care of his mother. The last visit with us, he came clean and told us that after his father punished him, his mother convinced him to stay there till his BF was over it so he can get out of the grounding to follow.
A long and hard lesson, did he learn, when he didn't get to see his OTHER family for 3 months. I'm the step mother and when he wants to open up, its always to me. I think I'm the only one completely honest, and will listen when he has something to say, AND his feelings are what matters most! He said that when he tells his mom he wants to visit, she makes him feel bad, and tries to convince him his father is bad and not good for him. I explained, the only reason we let you stay away is cause YOU said you wanted to. If you don't then we will go get you. Long story shorter, I told him that if his mother tells him he has to choose again, to tell her, HE DOES NOT WANT TO CHOOSE, AND IF SHE WANTS DIFFERENT CUSTODY, TO TALK TO HIS FATHER ABOUT IT! Like I said, I'm completely honest and told him, they aren't suppose to even ask him to choose, Judges, don't even bother asking a child till at least 13. Unless the child's welfare is in danger, they don't care what the child wants.
Our boy told us, if we have to go get him with the police, he wants to come back. Cops were called but we got our boy back without bringing them. Our 9 yr old realized that his parents are there for a reason. To make decisions to protect him, not to let him make the decisions, that cause him pain in the future. Wish his mother would see the pain she causes him, but studies say, you cannot reason with a Narcisist, and I concur! It is so obvious that her actions will hurt him, but she never chooses the right thing. From telling him to steel, to making fun of other kids along with him. We are Christian, and I cannot or will not say anything bad to him about his mother, but what can I do to save him from all the pain he suffers?
He loves me dearly, and mostly cuddles with me on the couch, or hanging on my arms, like the rest of my boys. I know he loves me, but often when his mother is mad, she says he hates me and doesn't want to come home cause of me! We all know different, and usually when he gets back after one of these excursions, first person he comes to see is ME, with eyes full of tears, and he says he's sorry. Then tells his mother doesn't like me and he's trying to make her happy, but he always feels terrible after the things she makes him do. I did confront her about calling the child names, and telling her boy to call her names also, and she called her own son a lyer, so I asked the child who was being called names, and she also said the mother was as well! As soon as our boy realized it wasn't okay, to call anyone names, even if an adult says its okay, his poor little eyes filled with tears immediately and wanted to call and apologize. I still never told him his mother didn't stick up for him and called him a lyer, cause that would kill him. I'm the step parent, suppose to be the Evil Step Mother, but the only Evil one in his life, is his own blood mother, who carried him for 9 months. How can a mother be so cruel to her own child?

She also stalks my facebook, myspace, etc. Adds my friends, then trash talks me! Even went in her boys account and made mean comments, and blamed him for it, but he doesn't know how to post comments, or even check his messages, so I knew it wasn't him. She cannot let go of her ex husband, and tries to control him, or she will keep her son away to punish him. We finally got an attorney, so it won't happen again. Also opened his child support mail for almost 4 years before she called us to let us know he was going to lose his license if he doesn't pay. Come to find out, we forgot to tell child support we were married and they had 2 years of charges, we didn't know about. I could go on and on forever, but you wouldn't believe it unless you saw it with your own eyes. He visited my mother in law for a month, and 3 days into his visit, his mom called him complaining he didn't call, but he did all three days, and could not leave a message cause they were full, and left him crying on the phone while on vacation. The year before called to tell him they were putting their dog down, so he cried for two days, then never even did, the dog was fine. Also tells him his 4 yr old brother doesn't eat when he's at our house, cause he misses him, and when he went on vacation to his grandmothers like he does every summer, he balled cause he thought his baby brother was gonna starve to death!
Sorry its a lot to take in. I'm open for ANY ideas on how to get rid of my fan club (stalker), or if there may be someone with experience, does this even sound like a fit mother. We are planning on fighting for full custody, but still let him see her, as any child Loves is bio parent, it is given at birth, and not something that has to be earned, so I've learned!

aggravated1's picture

It sounds to me like you are dealing with a lot of kids with ADD diagnoses, and your frustrations in dealing with those issues.
PAS is quite different. You really aren't going to see a lot of acting out in these kids in a school, the bad behavior is directed at the other parent.

These kids don't mend these relationships on their own, or if so, very rarely. How would you like it if someone came and took your child and spent YEARS turning that child against you? Would you be willing to wait 18 years for it to "work itself out?"

Also, the reason for the medical diagnosis, I believe, is to have it recongnzed by the court system so it can force a judge's hand to DO something about these kids being damaged this way.

PoisonApples's picture

ImaSmom,

PAS does NOT fit the profile of the others. I don't think ANYONE suggests medicating for PAS. It is something completely different from the other 'syndromes'.

I agree with you about bad behaviour being excused as one of the multitude of new 'syndromes' and the over medication of children.

I think most of these 'syndromes' are the result of bad parenting.

I know a woman, the mother of 4 children. She doesn't 'do' discipline at all. All 4 of her kids are ADHD and she swears it must be hereditary. I asked her what the symptoms were, how she knew something was wrong. Among other things she mentioned how they'd jump up and down on the sofa even late at night, how they ran around the house shouting, how they didn't 'listen', how they interrupt, can't concentrate, etc. Thing is...she never disciplines them. She gives in to everything they want. She never taught them basic manners. They watch as much TV as they want as late as they want and...here's the killer...she lets them have chocolate and sugared candies and coke or dr. pepper ALL THE TIME - yet she wonders why they are hyperactive? Rather than face that she's making HUGE mistakes and own her failure to effectively parent being the cause of their unruliness, she prefers to have them labeled and medicated.

Now I'm not saying that there aren't children out there who REALLY have ADHD and who need the medication. I'm just talking about this one parent.

mommyofboy's picture

Alienating a parent is when one parent trash talks the other until the child hates the parent, whether there be a reason to or not. Making the child decide not to want to live with the other parent anymore.
Trust me, my step son went through it for 3 months, we let him stay with his mother, just to find out that it was a game he was playing with him, and his own mother made him feel like he was hurting her if he went to visit with his father, step mother, and 3 brothers. The reason why children are not given a choice where to live. Parents are suppose to be adults and protect their children from being hurt and make decisions for them. My step son was 9 when this all happened, and he now tells his mother, I do not want to decide, if you want to change custody, talk to my dad!
Its not a syndrome of the child, but of the parent, cause what parent in their RIGHT MIND, can cause pain to their children for their own benefit. I hope it is a syndrome, so their is actually an excuse for their behavior, and would be nice if there were medication to help them.

Also, I know what you mean, with ADHD, my boy has it a little, but no drugs for him. A few more knocks upside the head growing up worked for him. Still a little more difficult than my other boys, but NO DRUGS to calm him down. Now my nephew is completely out of control. When he takes a pill, he sits quietly on the couch and doesn't even talk, so I'm still against it, but would be nice if they found an herbal medication or even blocking out sugar helps!

DaizyDuke's picture

I 100% agree with Aggravated, PAS is a by-product of bad adult behavior.

I think the labeling of "syndrome" makes it appear that PAS would be beyond one's control such as Tourette's "Syndrome", Down's "Syndrome" etc.

I do however, think that PAS could almost certainly be linked to certain other mental disorders such as bio-polar, OCD etc. and would be interested to see a study of such.

Chavez's picture

It's funny that most custodial BMs commit PAS whereas most custodial dads gloss over the sins of the NCP BMs.

Really? I'd sure like to see where that statistic comes from. That's crap.

Mrs. Behavin in TX's picture

I can say without a doubt that time is NOT what a child experiencing PAS needs. In fact, when it comes to dealing with a bitter, angry or unstable custodial parent trying to destroy the NCP's relationship with their child, time is the enemy in the scenario. I know this because DH and I have been dealing with it for years now. There are too many incidents to count, so I will just give you the most recent example of what we are dealing with right now. The latest incident was when SS was supposed to come for his second 2 week summer visit but when we got to the airport, we found out that she had refused to send him yet again! She would not answer any of my husband’s calls, so he left a message telling her that he was going to be forced to call the authorities if she didn't at least return his call or pick up the phone. She called back 5 minutes later and told my husband that she wasn't going to send him for his visits anymore, even though the court ordered that she start sending him. She stated that she didn't care about what the judge’s orders were because she was the one who should really get to make the decisions and she had decided that SS no longer wanted to come. She told my husband that he was bored at our house and wanted to stay home with his "real family". She put SS on the phone and had him say: "I don't want to come visit you guys anymore because I don't like it, and that is all I have to say about that." My husband was so upset by it but only said to him “I love you and just want you to be happy. (Silence for a few moments) Do you love me?" SS said nothing and then BM took the phone and hung up. It was one of the most heart-breaking moments I have ever witnessed, ever. Sad

The following excerpt is from an article on PAS:

Parental alienation syndrome occurs when one parent's efforts to consciously or unconsciously brainwash a child combine with the child's own bad-mouthing of the other parent. In severe cases, the child won't want to see or talk to the alienated parent.

Once the alienation reaches such a point, it's difficult to reverse, and permanent damage is done to the child and to the relationship between the child and the alienated parent.
Warning Signs of Parental Alienation

How can you tell if your ex is attempting to alienate your child? Here are some warning symptoms psychologists have observed in children suffering from parental alienation syndrome, according to Dr. Douglas Darnall, Ph.D:

* Giving a child a choice as to whether or not to visit with the other parent.
* Telling the child details about the marital relationship or reasons for the divorce.
* Refusing to acknowledge that the child has property and may want to transport possessions between residences.
* Resisting or refusing to cooperate by not allowing the other parent access to school or medical records and schedules of extracurricular activities.
* One parent blaming the other parent for financial problems, breaking up the family, changes in lifestyle, or having a girlfriend or boyfriend.
* Refusing to be flexible with the visitation schedule in order to respond to the child's needs, or scheduling the child in so many activities that the other parent is never given the time to visit.
* Assuming that if a parent has been physically abusive with the other parent, it follows that the parent will assault the child. This assumption is not always true.
* Asking the child to choose one parent over the other.
* The alienating parent encouraging any natural anger the child has toward the other parent.
* A parent or stepparent suggesting changing the child's name or having the stepparent adopt the child.
* When the child can't give reasons for being angry towards a parent or gives reasons that are vague and without any details.
* Using a child to spy or covertly gather information for the parent's own use.
* Arranging temptations that interfere with the other parent's visitation.
* Reacting with hurt or sadness to a child having a good time with the other parent.
* Asking the child about the other parent's personal life.
* Physically or psychologically rescuing a child when there's no threat to their safety.
* Making demands on the other parent that are contrary to court orders.
* Listening in on the child's phone conversation with the other parent.

What Causes Parental Alienation?

What causes a parent to want to damage the relationship of their own child with the other parent at their own child's expense? Intentions differ from one parent to the next, but psychologists have suggested the following as potential motivators:

* An alienating parent may have unresolved anger toward the other parent for perceived wrongs during the relationship and may be unable to separate those issues from parenting issues.
* An alienating parent may have unresolved issues from their childhood, particularly in how they related to their own parents, which he or she projects onto the other parent (whether or not it's factually accurate).
* An alienating parent may have a personality disorder, such as narcissism or paranoia, which makes him or her unable to empathize with the child's feelings or see the way their behavior is harming the child. Such personality disorders may also make the alienating parent more likely to be jealous of the other parent's adjustment to the breakup and cause the alienating parent to have extreme rage toward the other parent.
* An alienating parent may be so insecure as to his or her own parenting skills that he or she projects those concerns onto the other parent, regardless of reality.
* An alienating parent may be so wrapped up in their child's life that he or she has no separate identity and sees the child's relationship with the other parent as a threat.
* Sometimes new spouses or grandparents push the alienating parent into inappropriate behavior for their own inappropriate reasons, and the alienating parent isn't strong enough to resist them.

What causes a child to buy into the alienating parent's brainwashing? The child may:

* Feel the need to protect a parent who's depressed, panicky or needy

* Want to avoid the anger or rejection of a dominant parent, who's also often the custodial parent

* Want to hold onto the parent the child is most afraid of losing, such as a parent who is self-absorbed or not very involved with the child.

In choosing to go along with the viewpoint of the alienating parent, the child can avoid conflict and remove him or herself from the constant tug-of-war.

PoisonApples's picture

I agree with everything Mrs. Behavin in TX said.

The only 'time' they need is time away from the parent who is guilty of PASing them.

PoisonApples's picture

I agree with everything Mrs. Behavin in TX said.

The only 'time' they need is time away from the parent who is guilty of PASing them.

purpledaisies's picture

I am rolling my eyes why does EVERYTHING HAVE to be a disorder???? Really? It is not a disorder it is called a being vindictive and manipulative. That is all!

aggravated1's picture

Honestly? I don't give a crap what they call it at this point. Courts won't recognize it as a definite problem until they get a definition.

So if giving it a name and putting it in a book will get us some help, well then go right ahead. Maybe when you can label someone with it in a way the court system will recognize, then maybe they will start doing something about it.

overit2's picture

God I agree, I'm so friggin sick of it...all these disorders, syndromes, labels...what the hell...if you check my blog you will see what I think abotu the term itself and who "coined" said "disorder".

Ailenation exists, and it's wrong. Shoot it exists between married couples and their own biokids. You can't however legislate/diagnose morals, ethics, behavior and parenting.

Persephone's picture

It should not be called a syndrome or a disorder. Call it what it is: child abuse; a crime.

aggravated1's picture

I agree with that also-but for some reason, the courts don't see it that way. Or very few of them do.

overit2's picture

Ummm...and it's hard to believe it would be

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_alienation_syndrome

"No professional association has recognized PAS as a relevant medical syndrome or mental disorder, and it is not listed in the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. It is not listed in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems of WHO."

Gardner's formulation of PAS is critiqued as lacking a scientific basis,[35][36][37] and as a hypothesis whose proponents have failed to meet the scientific burden of proof to merit acceptance.[6][35][37] The first publications about PAS were self-published and not peer reviewed,[8] and though subsequent articles have been published in peer reviewed journals, most have consisted of anecdotal evidence in the form of case studies;[38][39] in addition, the limited research into PAS has lacked evidence of its validity and reliability.[4][5] The lack of objective research and replication, falsifiability, and independent publication has led to claims that PAS is pseudoscience or junk science.[3][35][36] Proponents of PAS concur that large scale systematic controlled studies into PAS's validity and reliability are required,[8][12][40] supplementing a single small study in 2004 which suggested practitioners could come to a consensus based on written reports.[28]

The theoretical foundation of PAS has been described as incomplete, simplistic and erroneous for ignoring the multiple factors (including the behaviors of the child, parents and other family members) that may contribute to parental alienation, family dysfunction and a breakdown in attachment between a parent and a child.

aggravated1's picture

Please don't quote Wikipedia to me, and try to use it as a legitimate source. Cause you know, it's WIKIPEDIA.

And I could quote just as many sources that say the opposite.

overit2's picture

Ok, here's a novel idea...contact all the above mentioned and see if they recognize it as a valid "disorder" ..hint you won't find it.

Again-not saying it doesn't exist but his premise was wrong, the findings discredited, the "theory" flawed AND the man pretty much ok'd child molestation. So forgive me for not jumping at the bit at a new "disorder" discovery.

aggravated1's picture

Perhaps you should go back and read the originally quoted article again, because you did "jump at the bit" in your first paragraph.

No, it's not going to be recognized as a valid disorder right now, because they are discussing having it added as a VALID DISORDER. There is a whole paragraph about the American Psychiatric Association debating whether they are going to approve it to add to the Manual of Mental Disorders.

Have you ever seen that book? New disorders and syndromes are added every year. It's the Bible of the mental health profession. When it makes it into the book, the it becomes a medical diagnosis, and then it becomes treatable in the eyes of the medical community, and in some cases the law.

Like I said before, I don't give a shit what they call it. If it is one more step into having shitty parents like DH's ex made accountable for the damage they have done, they can call it See You Next Tuesday disease for all I care.

aggravated1's picture

It is obvious you have some agenda here. I have read your previous posts, and you are talking about medicating kids, they need more time, etc. What gives? Have you been locked up too long in a room full of ADD labelled 5 year olds?

You are all over the place with your examples. Why would you medicate a kid who has been PAS'ed? :?

I am glad I don't have a kid that has been diagnosed with ADD. I would be super pissed right now that someone who doesn't even know me wants to make blanket statements about what they consider kids need and don't need.

overit2's picture

Or....how about a label/disorder for kids from divorced homes? That'll be helpful. I'm SO with you here...it's not that bad parenting, alienation and crappy decisions aren't made...but what is up w/the labeling of everything. I mean...we now have "SLEEP SHIFT DISORDER"...wth??

Mrs. Behavin in TX's picture

Here's the thing, it does NOT matter what the hell you call it. Call it a disorder, syndrome, illness, or just plain evil, etc... Regardless of what people want call it, the important thing is that we call these PAS'ers out for it and hold them accountable for their negative actions. We need to raise awareness about this type of behavior and recognize that it is WRONG and HORRIBLE. In the end, it's a form of emotional abuse and the children are the ones that suffer most as a result. Trying to address this issue in court or anywhere is difficult no matter what and people will always get stuck in the court system when it comes to anything like this, regardless of what it's called or not called.

Most Evil's picture

I think this is great, that it is even being discussed in the legal and medical community, and finally looked at seriously - that is the first step toward people who do this being held accountable for it-!!!!

Ms. Behavin, I love your article info - am saving it in my files, for a quick summary to share with people who are unfamiliar with the topic (lucky them).

I know it was a great relief to me to realize that other people had experienced this too - DH kept thinking BM and SD must be correct, that he was a horrible person and that is why SD turned on him. His depression was a terrible thing to witness, because everyone was afraid to address BM and her mental issues!!

I also think that the courts have not recognized this because then they will be forced to hear it, from a million PAS'ing ex's-!! so not recognizing it keeps the kind of people that would do this, from disrupting every court in the nation!

I almost feel this should be called 'bitter ex' syndrome, to be more accurate LOL

Anon2009's picture

Very interesting post!

imaSmom, I agree with you that it shouldn't be classified as a true disease/disorder. However, I really want the system to recognize it as child abuse and want them to start taking custody away from the parents who do this. Also, a lot of kids do need the help of a psychologist to overcome this. Some kids have had their heads filled with it for so many years that the NCP has to enlist the help of a professional to help his kids overcome it. A lot of kids buy what the BM sells hook, line and sinker, because she is their mom, and I don't think anyone wants to admit that their mom is a liar.

Unfortunately, some kids never overcome this brainwashing and will always hate the person who was bashed. Some kids do overcome it. I agree with you that it shouldn't be an excuse for bad behavior and it's not something that can be medicated, but it is something the courts really need to take a look at.

Rags's picture

Not in my opinion. It is purely a character flaw and a conscious choice of pure evil.

The last thing we need is these evil toothless dipshits to get a mental illness label for their toxic evil crap. It should be recognized as a crime so we can put them in prison with their peers and so that we can sue the shit out of them and legally put them in the position to spend their lives in eternal debt so us.

Grrrr!!!!! These people just piss me off.

Best regards,

Anon2009's picture

*like* Smile

Couldawouldashoulda's picture

It's such a really good point on whether to add it or not. I mean how many court stories are there that the Guardian Ad Litem's/Child Custody Investigators/Mediators/Arbitrators/Judges that are deciding these cases, (i.e. our lives) don't even recognize it because it's not in the DSM? Then if it's not recognized in DSM they usually are not trained to look for it or make the appropriate decisions combating it.

Very good point. I still don't believe in the "time" thing though.