Visiting Skids Out of State
Due to wonderful pregnancy hormones, I have been waking up in the middle of the night with anxiety surrounding the most random things. This leads to me being awake for several hours, thinking. I spoke with my doctor who told me it is totally normal due to radical fluctuations in hormones, so good news there.
In the middle of the night last night, I was thinking about SS9 and how he has lived out of state with BM since Fall 2017. We visited SS in BM's state a few times, the most recent being Fall 2018. We stopped doing out of state visitation because BM would use our out of state visits to manipulate and control DH. When DH did visit SS, he would visit either late Friday night to Sunday afternoon/evening or early Saturday morning to Sunday afternoon/evening. DH once got out of work late on a Friday and left home at 1 a.m. to ensure he arrived to watch SS' game at 8 a.m., since we lived 6 hours away at the time.
We would go to visit for a weekend to watch SS play football, which is all fine and dandy, but BM/GF would sit right behind us for the entire game, talking crap about DH to other parents. If we moved away from them, they would follow. Then, after the games would conclude, BM would tell DH that SS had other commitments like birthday parties, play dates, etc. and she expected DH to provide the transportation to/from and chaperone all of these activities. DH didn't mind, but it was a waste of time to travel out of state to visit SS, only to have to take him to a birthday party, play date, or activity where SS would want to hangout with his friends, instead of spending quality time with DH. BM would tell DH that his "visitation" could begin after all SS' activities were complete, which would usually be late Saturday night. Then BM would request that SS be home morning/early afternoon on Sunday to "prepare for school" on Monday, even though our hotel was only 5 minutes from BM's house and we could have visited with SS into the late afternoon/evening without interfering with his "preparation". It was all a control tactic and since out of state visitation was not addressed in the CO, we were at BM's beck and call in terms of duration and planning, since BM kept reminding us that she was doing us a "favor" allowing the extra time. Plus, it was a financial burden - a couple hundred bucks for a hotel, food, gas, activities, etc. all to spend a few measly hours with SS due to BM's tactics.
These shenanigans went on for about three visits before DH said enough. DH informed BM that we would not be visiting out of state anymore. BM threw a tantrum, saying that it was crucial that DH visit SS out of state to "be a part of SS' community." DH reminded BM that she was the one who moved and limited the ability for DH to participate in SS' day to day life. DH ignored BM's future pleas for out of state visitation and we never visited again. BM brought this up in court during our 2019/2020 court battle, demanding that the judge order 7 weekend out of state visitations per year (totaling 21 days) for DH. The judge denied her request and BM remotioned for it 3 more times, with various adjustments, until it was finally dismissed completely.
So in my insomnia last night, I started thinking, are we wrong for not visiting SS in his community? For not going to school events, sporting events, etc. to support him? Will he become angry/resentful as a teenager that Dad was never a part of his important milestones. We now live 4 hours away one way/8 hours roundtrip, so it isn't like distance is overly far, and I would just hate for SS to use that against us someday, since its not like we live across the country. I just keep thinking that we are terrible for not visiting SS in his "hometown" for the last 3 years. I have asked DH if he wants to resume out of state visits again, and he has said "No" because he does not want to set a precedence with BM and allow her to regain control/violate boundaries we have worked so hard to implement. DH said he will only visit in the future for the really important milestones like high school graduation and stuff like that. Thoughts? Are we in the wrong?
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When BM offered up those 21
When BM offered up those 21 days that she wanted to be "out of state visitation".. the best thing to do would have been to come back with. I would LOVE to have more time with my son. If his mother will drive half way and meet us to do a drop off, I would be thrilled for the extra time!!!
Is your DH wrong for not making more of an attempt to see SS where he lives? Honestly, based on past experience.. it seems like it was an exercise in futility with little to no real time together.
Now, if there is some extra special tournament that your DH would like to attend or an awards ceremony of course, he could go. As SS gets older, it may be more possible to navigate the out of state visitation with his son directly vs having his mom in the mix. And.. of course be always open to more visitation in your area... If bm thinks the relationship is that important, she should foster it by giving more time and helping to make it happen.
Lol we did that when we went
Lol we did that when we went to court. We offered to accept the additional 21 days of visitation across 7 weekends only if SS visited our state, instead of us going to BM's state. We even threw in the perk of DH doing all transportation for those weekends and BM shut that down real quick. She only wanted it in her state, so DH could "be a part of the community." She had no interest in offering DH more time in our state.
"be a part of the community."
"be a part of the community."
I think I might have countered that with the fact that allowing him to be a part of his father's community would be an excellent experience for him and allow him to expand his horizons.
Oh we did that too. Explained
Oh we did that too. Explained that SS also has family here, in our state, outside of DH and I that SS would benefit from having strong relationships with and that since DH's community is SS' previous community that BM and SS moved from, it would be beneficial for SS to maintain those connections. NOPE! Because it wasn't what BM actually wanted, it was just an excuse.
We are in a similar situation
We are in a similar situation with SD14. It's about a six-hour round trip for us which is pretty annoying but not quite as far as yours.
I do think that it is negatively affected DH & SDs relationship that he doesn't go to her events. However I think that the damage was done on both sides. B m encouraged daytime visits in her City rather than overnights in ours. This overtime marginalized d h and his importance in SD life. D h allowed for this to happen so he takes some of the blame as well.
I am 100% behind him not doing visits like this anymore. SD has been dismissive of him since she was about 9 years old. DH decided that it just wasn't worth it to drive so many hours to basically say hi and maybe take SD to lunch. One time he went to her dance class and she spoke only a few words to him before going home with BM. Another time he drove down early in the morning in order to pick up SD and take her to the first day of school and he literally drove her for about 5 minutes and she didn't even give him a hug or turn around as she walked in. D h knows that these are important events but his involvement is so minimal and SD doesn't seem to care if he's there or not it's not like he is missing out on special memories. Quality is more important than quantity and he decided to push more for SD to spend time at our house rather than just meeting to go to a movie lunch or shopping for the day in BMs City.
I agree with the quality as
I agree with the quality as well.
and... in this day and age, there are ways to be in contact with your child even if you can't be there physically.
My DH would have brief calls with his girls a couple times a day. Their mom left before they caught the bus so he would usually call to make sure they were all set and ready to go in the AM. Then, he would call in the after school time to touch base about their day and make sure they were ok. (again BM often worked or was not home when they were off school).
I would like to stress the word brief. These were not calls intended to monopolize their time at their mother's house. They weren't so rigid that they interferred with their activities or things happening with mom. But, it was a way to allow him to be a daily presence in their lives.. see how they were doing... hear about any things going on in their lives... and let them know that he loved them. Even when you are a NCP, you are still their parent 100% of the time... that obligation and connection doesn't necessarily cease when they are with the other parent. As long as the calls aren't intrusive to the other parent's time, there should be zero problem with the child spending 10 minutes or so a day in contact with their other parent. This works best if the kid is old enough to have their own cell (fairly young these days).. or there is a land line. I will also say that if their mom was around, he most often cut the calls very short. He wasn't interested in having these convos with her there.
Thank you for the validation
Thank you for the validation and for making me feel less alone in our situation. I feel like DH has done a good job maintaining a strong relationship with SS, even with the distance.
We are in a similar boat to you. BM prevented all contact with DH until SS was 2 because there was no CO in place due to an ongoing court battle, and no temporary visitation order was set, so BM decided that DH wasn't entitled to any visitation until a set CO was in place. Then BM claimed that SS had "special needs" and could not have overnights with DH due to his extensive needs. The judge agreed and no overnights were granted. Btw, SS has never had "special needs" in his entire life. The kid is above average in every academic subject and completely normal socially and emotionally. DH didn't finally get overnights until SS was 5, and then a few months later, BM moved out of state. BM denied DH's role as parent by minimizing it, allowing him to play a babysitter/fun uncle role in SS' life. After the move, DH petitioned for an out of state CO, but the judge only granted 6 weeks per year due to SS' endless sport commitments (read BM PAS tactic). The judge warned DH that he will likely never rule to increase it.
So for now, we see SS during our CO visitation and we call him twice a week to chat. The judge ruled for twice per week for both parties because BM was blowing up our phone 24/7, so it was better to order it for both parties instead of just one. We find that two calls per week works well for us. The calls generally last 30-40 minutes and SS gives us a good rundown of his week. BM doesn't allow SS to have a cell phone, so all calls go through her phone via Skype. BM eavesdrops on these calls, so we are careful about what we discuss. But DH has found other ways to stay involved in a meaningful way. We mail stuff to SS and DH coordinated an end of school year pizza party with SS' teacher, ordering pizza to be delivered to the school. We have also used Amazon Prime Now to deliver a "get well soon" package to SS when he was sick, since BM's city is a major hub that will deliver anything within 2 hours. We find that our methods are very quality oriented rather than quantity.
For my husband, those trips
For my husband, those trips to see SS were turned against him. BM would claim in court that if DH loved SS he would do what he "used to do" and go there to visit and there was no need for SS to come to where we lived- where BM moved from. Then after that agruement when DH would go there as well, it was "DH shouldn't interfere with what SS had going on". So he once spent a month in SS's state, used up a ton of leave that we could have saved for his retirement and SS was too busy to see him the enitre month.
It was all a game and when DH called BM on it, it just proved that nothing DH ever did would be right or good enough.
Don't feel guilty. BM just wants to break your husband more and remain in total control.
Thank you for the validation.
Thank you for the validation. BM also tried that ploy that if DH visited SS in BM's state, then SS wouldn't need to visit DH in our state. Luckily, that didn't fly. We have learned that no matter what we do, it will never be good enough for BM, even though BM would never do half the stuff we do herself.
I just want to make sure we are doing right by SS. BM is a huge factor in why SS and DH's relationship is limited to what it is, but I fear that SS will come back to us later claiming that we didn't do enough. I know we can't change the situation or what BM says/does, but I just want to make sure we are doing right by him.
We were at a restaurant last
We were at a restaurant last night and I just wanted to hug the dad a the table next to us. Completely eavesdropping I heard parts of the conversation he was having with his estranged daughter, she had to be college age or just graduated.
Her: "It was fine, I didn't need you. I had mom"
Him: "I tried to be there. I sent so many cards and gifts. I tried to call. Your mom wouldn't let me be in your life. She wouldn't answer, she sent it all back"
At one point he said that he had to move away from BM. That things were so bad between them, it wasn't good for her. She just shut him down. She wasn't ready to hear his side of things yet. BM was still the martyr, mother of the year.
I think for some, it doesn't matter what happens, local, long distance... Some BM's would rather the kids think their dad is a POS and the kids aren't worth it to him, than to just suck it up, deal with an ex and do what is best for your kids.
That's pretty sad
And then there are those like SD22 Feral Forger who cant seem to get it through her head that being a mean, nasty, rude person who only calls or texts when she needs something isnt going to build a relationshp...
That is true and our BM is
That is true and our BM is definitely one of those BMs. DH could pay her every dime he has, spend time with SS 100% of the time, and literally be "Parent of the Year" and it wouldn't make an ounce of difference... DH will always be a deadbeat POS and BM has told him as much. DH is successful and we do okay for ourselves, as does BM, but BM can never acknowledge that DH isn't a broke loser with no future.
Whenever DH would call out BM's withholding SS or PASing over the years, BM's go to response was always "Things are the way they are because of choices you made..." DH never understood that comment because BM called all the shots in terms of SS. She planned the pregnancy without DH's knowledge, manipulating the birth control/condoms to get her pregnant, she broke up with DH, she made all the decisions about keeping SS versus putting SS up for adoption, she blocked DH from being around during her pregnancy, and then she had SS and kept DH away for as long as possible. DH fought/tried to coparent and be involved, but she blocked him at every turn, then claimed that "his choices" led to this outcome. The only thing I can think of is that DH demanded a paternity test after SS' birth and refused to sign the birth certificate until paternity was determined and that may have pissed off BM, but that's it. Her comment has never made sense to me.
It was all a game and when DH
It was all a game and when DH called BM on it, it just proved that nothing DH ever did would be right or good enough.
Don't feel guilty. BM just wants to break your husband more and remain in total control.
Yep ^^^^ Leave it be. Your DH knows what BM's game is and he has made his decision.
Look, I've been doing this step game for 25 years (since SD was 5) and looking back, anything we would have/could have done differently, would have still been turned around and used against us. Like the time DH took SD home because she was sick and wanted to go home. Had he made her stay, he would have been the asshole that wouldn't let a sick child go home to her mother. Can't win. Seriously, you can't.
My DH did what he thought was best at the time. Knowing BM, knowing her games, knowing what she was capable of, we eventually started doing what worked for US. And that was not playing BM's games.
Your DH should keep doing what he's doing to stay involved in SS's life, the way HE sees fit.
Thank you. It's been tough
Thank you. You are right and we have been in many of those situations before. It's been tough navigating this "damned if we do, damned if we don't" mentality.
"If we moved away from them,
"If we moved away from them, they would follow."
I'm afraid I cannot keep my mouth shut and am not known for my tact. (Stage whisper to DH) "If I had wanted a bitch at my heels, I'd have bought a dog..."
My SD 13 is an angry teen. I
My SD 13 is an angry teen. I think if your teen is goin to be angry, they will find something to be angry about no matter what you do. I woundn't worry about it, your husband tried and it didn't work out. He is doing his best.
So bizarre that she went to
So bizarre that she went to court to try to force him to visit in her area FOUR TIMES. Clearly, she loved that game of cat and mouse a lot. My guess is that she hoped to eventually cut off visitation in your town entirely.
I think you did the right thing. Make surprise visits to future events, so BM can’t control everything.
Yeah BM remotioning the court
Yeah BM remotioning the court 4 times to force DH to visit out of state is what delayed court resolution for a year and cost probably an additional $10k. All for absolutely nothing, but BM made that her hill to die on.
I think it will be hard to do surprise visits in the future. Most of SS' big events (outside of football games) occur on weeknights. Plus if we don't coordinate with BM, we will likely only see SS for the event itself and then BM will have SS busy doing something else after, so it would be a waste of time since we would barely see SS. We will consider doing out of state visitation when SS is older, depending on our relationship with him down the road.