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Do you think kids are solely BM's pas weapons? Or do you think there's a time when they should know better

Anon2009's picture

Submitted by Anon2009 on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:06pm

And that there are better ways to express their anger?

I think it's a combination of both. I think many of them "know better" but don't have the tools and knowledge necessary to stop. We got custody of them and they're in intense counseling so they're much better now.

This was the case with my SDs- they knew better but didn't know how to stop. They were so badly abused that they just couldn't figure it out. They needed the right tools and support system to stop. The problem with so many SKs is that they live with the alienator. Also, who wants to pi$$ off a bitter, angry person, especially if that is their mom?

Comments

Unfreakingreal's picture

Submitted by Unfreakingreal on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:17pm

I think with all certainty that BM would give custody over of SD in the blink of an eye if she wasn't #1 - her ATM card/meal ticket #2 - her ONLY bridge to my DH. I am also pretty sure that within 3 years SD will do as SS did and will leave her and come live with us.

realitycheckmom's picture

Submitted by realitycheckmom on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:33pm

Mazzy,

Are you saying that BM shouldn't be thinking her household is the most important? Maybe I read your comments wrong. It is not my responsibility to worry about my DD's bio-father's household. My daughter is my priority. Just like I can't expect BM#1 to care that because FDH is stuck paying child support for one more year till the last SD turns 19 that we are going to be giving up tv and other things so we can pay rent. She doesn't care that FDH has been paying child support for the oldest SD who is turning 21 and we are flat broke and my parents will be providing Christmas for my DD and SS. BM#1 doesn't care and she feels that her kids are entitled to this money even though we have other kids to provide for. It was our choice to have other children and it is up to us to pay for them. BM#1 has PAS'd the girls to the point where they bad mouth us every chance they get but I don't believe BM is obligated to be concerned about our household and finances.

If course I am also annoyed that FDH pays child support to BM#2 when we have custody of SS and BM#2 only sees him eowe. But in no way do I think its BM's problem that she is getting child support and due to this our standard of living has come down.

stormabruin's picture

Submitted by stormabruin on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:27pm

I'm certain there are cases where they are fully aware that it's wrong. So often PAS comes through BM "needing" them to tell lies, keep secrets, etc. Kids know it's wrong to tell lies & they know it's wrong to keep secrets from parents.

The thing about PAS, though, is that so many times they're placed in a position of having to choose one parent over the other parent. They can choose to go along with the lies & secrets, or they can choose to defy the parent that they rely on to have their needs met. Parents who alienate use guilt & anger to get these kids to do whatever it is they want them to do. For a child to be given the choice between telling NCP dad a lie or making CP mommy really really angry, while they may not WANT to do it, they're kind of forced to. They get put in situations where neither choice is a good choice & they just have to pick the one they see as being the lesser of the two evils.

I would absolutely choose lying to a parent I'm not forced to see over pissing the one off that I have to cope with face-to-face every day.

Having read & researched alienation, as poorly as these kids end up treating their parents I can't help but feel for them. I'm convinced that all of the counseling in the world cannot possibly be enough to get many of them back to a healthy & happy state of mind.

stepintexas's picture

Submitted by stepintexas on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:28pm

In my opinion, when the kids hit around age 14 and up- they fully understand what kind of relationship they are having with the other parent and can choose to not be PASed. At around that age, you know how you treat people and you can choose to no longer be used as a weapon against a parent. If the kids continue the PAS actions after that, then it is on them. And that happens more often than not, where the teen chooses to act as spy, agitator, enemy in the PASed parents house.

stormabruin's picture

Submitted by stormabruin on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:38pm

I can agree with this if the alienation begins around that age. However, if the kids have been alienated from a very young age, there is enough emotional & mental damage done...they have learned certain behaviors, & I don't think that when they hit age 14 or so they are mentally capable of just turning off the switch.

By that point, while they may know what they're doing is wrong & they may feel guilty about it, it's how they've been programmed to behave.

Really, so much depends on what all has been involved in the alienation in a particular situation. If a kid has been programmed to believe that the other parent doesn't love them & never wanted them, what would drive them to treat that parent any better?

I do believe that at some point, each person has to be accountable for the choices they make. It's hard to determine exactly when that point is reached. That's what we are struggling with now.

stepintexas's picture

Submitted by stepintexas on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 1:57pm

I do get what you are saying... they may have been PASed beyond what they can recognize and do anything to get out of the cycle.

BUT, I do believe that at mid to late teen years, that, the responsibility lies on the kid as to continue the hate campaign or not. At some point, the teen must gain some insight into their own relationships, and by that I mean they are already self aware and aware of the other types of relationships(i.e. friendships, girlfriends, boyfriends, aunts, uncles, ect) and the role they play in those. They surely are aware of the role they play with the PASed parent.

I don't think I was unusual at 16, but I recognized the give and take in my relationships with family and friends, and my role in those relationships.

stormabruin's picture

Submitted by stormabruin on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:34pm

"I don't think I was unusual at 16, but I recognized the give and take in my relationships with family and friends, and my role in those relationships."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I want to agree with this, & in some cases I could. But in cases where alienation has been the learned standard in life, after 16 years of that being learned I can't. While you were not unusual at 16, kids who are programmed to shun one parent in return for the love & approval of the other parent ARE unusual. So often they're raised to believe that the alienated parent is undeserving of their love or respect. As far as they're taught, their role is to disparage & reject that parent. That's what they're taught is acceptable & right. For a lot of kids it's what they've been rewarded for doing as far back as they can recall.

stepintexas's picture

Submitted by stepintexas on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:45pm

I get that. Pure and simple it is long term brain washing with kids who have been PASed over the long term.

When do they grow up and move past the brainwashing?

See, I really believe at some point it falls on the kids- when they are not kids- to get past it.

stormabruin's picture

Submitted by stormabruin on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:50pm

I agree that at some point each of us has to own our part in choices we've been active in making. Absolutely.

I think that owning that responsibility has to be part of the healing process. You can't truly overcome an obstacle you aren't willing to acknowledge your ownership in.

stepintexas's picture

Submitted by stepintexas on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 2:54pm

That is exactly what my DH and I discuss about his 2 PASed, they have to acknowledge the part they played and continue to play at 18 and 20 for them to truly heal and move forward.

Until then, he really doesn't want any relationship.

Unfreakingreal's picture

Submitted by Unfreakingreal on Thu, 05/31/2012 - 3:01pm

This is why I always counter attack the BMs nonsense directly with the Skids. When she says DH doesn't support them, I pull out the CS statements & show them to the Skids. When BM tells them that he doesn't love them I pull out the court papers from his fight to get visitation. When she tells them that he loves me more I counter attack as well. I will NOT let this bitch ruin my DHs reputation without a fight. It may be wrong to some, but to me it's fighting fire with fire. That way the kids know BOTH sides and they can decide for themselves when the time comes.