You are here

Ideas for rewards/consequences system(s)?

knighk18's picture

I feel like it would take all day to give everyone all the background that's pertinent to the issues I'm having with the kids, so I'll try to make it as brief and uncomplicated as possible; but please forgive me if it's fragmented and rambling at times.

Boyfriend and I are not married. He's the brother of my best friend so we've known each other (at least casually) for 7 years, and started dating about a year ago; I recently moved in with him. He is divorced (which was final about a year and a half ago, separated about 2 1/2 years ago), and has two daughters; V is almost 6 and G is 7. They know me and have known me for a long time, so I'm not new in their lives. So a few various (and perhaps unrelated) details to preface the actual questions:

-Ex-wife has primary custody
-D (my boyfriend) and I have the girls every 1st, 2nd, and 4th weekend from Friday at 4PM to Sunday at 6PM and one night for dinner during the week.
-Since it's summer, we have them every other week from the beginning of June until the end of July (so Sunday at 6PM until the following Sunday at 6PM and then mom gets them the next week)...this is our 2nd full week with them, and then two more to go after this.
-I work from home; I'm a technical analyst and I work long hours. While I generally have some flexibility, I do have to get work done and be at my computer and on conference calls throughout the day.
-I have had, for the most part, a really good relationship with V, the youngest. G, the oldest, is much harder to get to know. She's very quiet, and sullen and always has a scowl on her face, even when she claims she isn't upset. That said, we do have our moments and she doesn't hate me, she's just quiet.
-A very important point to note is that I'm 32, and I have lived alone for the majority of my adult life (since I was 18). I have dated men with kids, but never at this level of seriousness and we have never lived together. I do have 3 nieces, whose lives I have been extremely involved in and with whom I'm very close, so I've had some "mothering" experience with them, but obviously it isn't the same thing as actual parenting. The point of that is that this isn't just a transition for V and G and D, it's a huge life change for me. All of a sudden I'm cooking dinner every night for 4 people, being a mom and essentially a wife, cleaning a 2500 sq ft house versus a 1200 sq foot apartment, running errands, managing schedules.

Other than typical, age-appropriate (fairly minor) behavioral issues, they have been good kids. There are, however a couple of things that have consistently been "issues" between D and I when it comes to his interactions with them.

First of all, they are all so freaking co-dependent on each other, at least when it comes to affection, and it makes me insane! I'll be in the middle of a conversation with him, and the girls (one or both) will climb on him and start with the "I love my daddy so much" and he will completely stop his conversation with me to have a 20 minute conversation with them about how much they love each other. I know this isn't a bad thing, they need the attention...but it's not once a day, it's literally 10-20 times a day. Every day. And I want them to be loved on and be silly and be affectionate, but I also want them to know what appropriate boundaries are, and interrupting people is rude. But he eats the attention up, so it's hard to get him to acknowledge that it isn't really "ok" because he hides behind "well, I want them to know they have access to me and that I love them." This is a theme that runs through most of the issues that we deal with. There is a definite desire to be the most loved parent, the most fun parent, a competition between mom and dad, and now me, apparently. And it's a competition that rages throughout every activity.

In the car, as soon as we get in to go anywhere, one of the girls (whoever is sitting behind D) immediately starts with "I'm on Daddy's team, you have to be on K's team." Or "I get to sit behind Daddy, that means I'm more special." Then we get to the store and get two baskets (because they both HAVE to ride, not walk) and it's "I'm gonna be in Daddy's cart" and whoever doesn't get to ends up having a meltdown. So instead, he'll let them both sit in one car that he pushes while I push around the other cart and put groceries in it. Again, I don't have an issue when them loving him and I really don't even have an issue with them preferring him over me. He's their dad, I get it. What I have an issue with is the constant whining and constant competing everywhere we go, everything we do, all the time. Just get in the freaking cart and let's get this done! And why does it matter who pushes the cart? Why does it matter where everyone sits in the car? Just get in!! To be fair, I've addressed it calmly and kindly with him and he has taken steps to not exclude me from things, but it's still a sore spot. Because when they're competing for his attention, I'm the odd one out and I feel like it's me just existing around the 3 of them.

Now to the bigger issue...

He has been sleeping on a couch in his bedroom since the divorce for various reasons; he has back problems and the couch is more comfortable, and his ex-wife literally took everything in the house including his bed. So it was him on a couch, the girls on a twin bed (even though they have their own room attached to ours with a full-sized loft bed). Now, it's me on the twin bed, him on the couch, and them on this little pull out loveseat next to his couch. And, inevitably, every single night, they end up in the bed with him. My bed is being delivered next weekend and I've been discussing this with him in small doses. My opinion is that they need to go to sleep in their room, in their beds, and we need to go to sleep in our room, in our bed. And if they come into our bed during the night, we (or he) need to walk them back to their bed and settle them in and then come back to our bed. I think it's important for them to have their own space to be in and maintain, and it's important for us to have that as well! But he likes that they love him so much and want to be with him. So he flip-flops between agreeing with me and then saying "Well, I don't have an issue with them coming in the bed with me and sleeping in our room." Ok, well I do. They don't NEED to sleep in our room. And their room is literally attached to ours with not even a door separating it; they can see us.

The other part of this is that both of them wet the bed. And it's literally 6 nights out of 7. It's not always both of them, but it's always at least one of them. We've tried limiting water intake, cutting off liquids 3-4 hours before bed, making them pee 5 times before bed...nothing seems to work and I have no experience dealing with this. But here's my issue: This is my bed we're about to be sleeping in. I don't anticipate D and I breaking up, but I also know life happens, so if something did happen and I moved out, that's still going to be my bed. I'm not willing to have a $1000 mattress ruined by pee. Call me selfish, I'll accept it. But just because he's ok sleeping in wet pee every night and having that pull-out couch ruined by it, and having to wash blankets and sheets every day doesn't mean I'M ok with it.

We discuss these things every couple of days and we never land anywhere because he just can't decide. His stance is sort of "I know it's important for them to have their own space and for us to have ours, but I like that they just can't get enough of me, so I'm not ready to tell them they can't sleep with me." My stance is "by letting them have access to you all the time, by default that limits our interactions, and it says to them that I'm insignificant in your life when compared to them. It tells them that their wanting to sleep with you and wanting to be on you all the time is more important than our need as a couple to have 8 hours a night to rest and their wants trump my authority." To be clear, he and I don't really argue; he's a mellow guy, I'm a logical woman, we discuss things calmly (for the most part) and don't really fight. We also just can't get past this issue to come to some kind of agreement.

The other issue, the biggest issue right now, is that for some reason, the girls have decided that they want to start testing me. And there's a couple of things happening that I just don't know how to deal with.

V lies. A lot. About any and everything it seems. And then when I correct her, she says things like "It's not a lie, it's a trick." Ok, fair enough...but tricks are punishable the same way lies are, so I don't really care. She has a smart mouth and it gets her in trouble, quite a bit.

They both argue about EVERYTHING. And it's because D has established this relationship with them in which he over explains everything and allows them an opinion about pretty much every decision he makes. Example: "Daddy is going to run in and grab some chlorine, you guys are going to stay in the car with K; is that ok?" Um...is that OK?!?!? How about "Daddy's going to run in, you stay here with K, I'll see you in 5 minutes." The end. Another example: "K is going to cook spaghetti for us tonight; is that ok with you girls?" Again, why are we asking? That's what we're having and I'm who is making it. So if they don't want it, they won't starve if they don't eat, they'll just be hungry until breakfast. I'm not making 4 different meals every night, sorry. And look, if I were making baby octopus or sushi for dinner, I'd be willing to make them a grilled cheese or something instead. But it's this constant whining over everything I make, just for the sake of whining. And it's stuff they like, it's just not what they feel like having. So I don't believe in asking a child's opinion about everything, and apparently he does. Another example: "Daddy has to go to work, K is going to stay here with you today; is that ok?" Really? What if they say no? you're going to not go to work? Come on.

Anyway, this asking for their stamp of approval and including them in all the decisions has created a problem for me. Because I don't allow that to happen. So this is how my interactions with them go:

Me: Hey, girls, I need you to pick up the toys that are on the living room floor.
V: Why?
Me: Because I asked you to, and because that's not where they belong.
V: Well I'm going to play with them later.
Me: Ok, then we can get them out later when you're ready to play with them again, but for now, we need to pick them up.
G: Actually, we don't have to put them away if we don't want to because we aren't going to bed yet.
Me: I've asked you to do something; it's not negotiable or optional, you need to do what I've asked.
Both: Why?
Me: I'm not arguing with you, just do what I've asked.
V: Well, my dad isn't even home.
Me: What does that have to do with it?
V: Because he doesn't care if we play.
Me: Please do what I've asked and pick up your toys.
G: I don't really feel like it, though.

I'm not kidding you, about everything. So that's annoying; I don't know about anyone else, but when I was a kid, I didn't ask why. Because if I did, I was disciplined. I didn't negotiate because I didn't have the option. And in the last couple of days, they've started being outright defiant. This is what I've been dealing with:

I'm not going to answer you.
I don't have to.
My dad's not home, so I'm allowed.
I will not go in time out.
I don't have to do what you tell me.

Here's the biggest issue I have: When D and his ex got divorced, she told the judge and a family counselor that she didn't like D spanking the girls because he did it too harshly. So in the divorce decree (yes, I've seen it) the judge said neither parent is allowed to physically discipline the girls at all. So V reminds her dad of this occasionally, saying "if you spank me, I'll tell mom and she'll get you in trouble." To be clear, he usually doesn't have these issues at this level or in this quantity...they save them all for me:) But because of this, I am very careful how I interact with them; so if G says "I'm not going in time out" I will not pick her up and make her because I don't want anything to come back on D or I in regards to physically disciplining the children.

Now that I've written a novel (which I wouldn't even have the patience to read, so I won't be offended if no one else does), I ask these questions:

1. Is the defiance age-appropriate and simply a transitional growing pain as they learn how to interact with me?
2. How do I handle it when they flat-out refuse to listen, other than taking away privileges (swimming, tv, toys, etc.)? I do take this stuff away, but clearly it makes little impact since the behavior continues.
3. Does anyone use like a rewards/behavior chart or system that you've had any success with to address things like lying, talking back, arguing, etc.?
4. Am I completely off-base with the sleeping arrangements thing? Maybe it's because I don't have kids, so I don't have that "I have to have them on me at all times" feeling, but it seems reasonable to me that they have they're own space and that they don't go to bed with us at all and don't end up in the bed with us every night. But I am also acutely aware that I may just feel that way because I don't understand.
5. How to I explain to D that it's not being unkind to his kids to ask them to sleep in their own room and that they really will survive not hanging on each other for 8 hours a night while they sleep?

Thanks so much in advance!

knighk18's picture

I want to make sure you understand that I haven't had a hand in raising these girls. Until recently, I wasn't in charge or even in a position where I could impose rules or enforce consequences. So while I take responsibility for the things I do that haven't been effective or have been damaging, I don't really feel responsible for creating these beasts:) I've only recently moved in (within a month), and I also encourage people to remember that I didn't come in this house already being a mom. I don't have kids, I've never done this before. Also, their mother can cause issues for their dad, and I want things to be happy and healthy for everyone, so I didn't think it was appropriate for their emotional health to come in and start demanding we do things my way after they had been raised a completely different way.

I also don't have an issue with a kid crawling into bed in the middle of the night because their sick or they had a bad dream; it's the fact that it's the rule, rather than the exception that I have a problem with. And I absolutely agree with you about most of what you said; it isn't going to be cute when they're 15 or 16, and his whole "they'll grow out of it" thing makes me nuts. No, they won't grow out of it if you don't make them! Sure, kids want to be close to their parents. But I agree that it takes something away from them for them to not have their own space to feel secure and safe it. It isn't creepy to me, but maybe that's because I was the same when I was a kid and I always wanted to be touching my mom, always had a meltdown if I couldn't sleep with her...I get all that. The divorce was rough on them, he didn't see them for a few months, their worlds all got turned upside down. So they developed bad habits. Creepy? Not to me. Annoying? You bet.

My bottom line is that they are NOT sleeping in my bed. I guess I'm looking for ways to help him get there without having to just be a witch about it and without having to issue an ultimatum. But definitely, when my bed is here, I'm sleeping in it without kids and no one is peeing in my bed every night. I'm used to not sleeping with him, because even when he would stay at my place (without the kids) he'd end up on the floor next to me or on the couch because the bed hurts his back. But that doesn't mean the kids get to be in our room.

c-mom's picture

I had a behavior board for the kids. Drew two stop lights on it with each one's name and put six lines next to each. We wrote their responsibilities (broken into "When you wake up", "When you get home from school", and "Before bed") and the few absolute no-no's on the board. Responsibilities for us are a.m.: brush teeth, brush hair, get dressed, make bed, afternoon: set agendas on table, brush teeth, do homework if you have any, put away clothes, and p.m. shower, brush teeth, lay out tomorrow's clothes. The never tolerated rules, no biting, no lying, no stealing, things like that. If they broke an absolute no-no, had to be reminded of their responsibilities, or had to be told more than twice to do/quit doing something, they received a check mark on one of the six lines. Once they had three checks, they moved to a yellow caution light. Three more they moved to red and did not get any extras until after Sunday evening when they returned to green. On Sunday evening, anybody who was not on a red light got frozen yogurt at our favorite frozen yogurt bar. On the fourth Sunday, we took whoever had not been on red once in the four weeks to do something big like amusement park, bowling, bounce houses, dinner and movie, things of that nature. It worked VERY well until DH quit keeping up with it.

c-mom's picture

PS... when I instituted the behavior board we sat them down and explained it to them and we told them we would help them remember for the first week but after that they were to read it on their own at the appropriate times and make sure their responsibilities were taken care of.

knighk18's picture

That's a great idea! It's interesting, because they do very well with chore-type responsibilities. When I ask them to pick up their dishes and put them in the sink, brush their teeth, go potty...no issues with that stuff. They do it, and most of the time without asking. It's more behavior...lying, talking back, arguing (with each other, and themselves). So maybe a chart of some kind with check marks and such for each time they do any of those things and then either a consequence or a reward at the end of it? They do respond well to rewards, but what kid doesn't? I just don't want to have to constantly bribe them to get them to behave.

oldone's picture

Any body of ANY age who wets the bed MUST wear diapers to bed. I don't care if it is a 6 month old baby, a 89 year old grandmother or anyone in between.

You wet the bed - you wear diapers. That's only common sense.

Buy a waterproof mattress pad. In case of leaks from the diaper, etc it protects the mattress.

Why are you doing all the cooking and cleaning? Who did it before you arrived on the scene?

There must be consequences for bad behavior. But the key is that their father must be on board. If he thinks it's okay for them to be total brats and that you must cook, clean and wipe their asses then you have a man problem not a skid problem.

knighk18's picture

We actually just discussed this when he called home on his lunch, and I suggested pull-ups and the waterproof mattress pad and he agreed. So that problem is solved, at least in theory.

I shouldn't infer I'm doing ALL the cooking and cleaning. He makes them breakfast, for the most part, unless he has to go in to work super early. And I love doing the cooking, so I really wouldn't have it any other way. They went out to eat a lot and ate a lot of pasta with jar sauce before, and I don't want to spend that much money or eat that for dinner every night. Plus, like I said, I love cooking, so I don't mind doing that.

As for the cleaning, it isn't that I do ALL the cleaning either. I just do more of it. A part of that is my issue, just wanting things the way I want them, and being OCD about stuff being wiped down every day. But the girls clean their rooms and clean up after themselves, he always cleans up after dinner (since I cook), he's in charge of yard work and the pool, and he also does the laundry. There's a fair distribution of labor that I'm satisfied with. I only made my original comment about cleaning/cooking to make the point that it's a change for me. I don't mind doing that stuff, and it's stuff that I did when I lived alone. It's just a different environment. And it's very different doing it in a house of 4 than it is a house of 1.

I really wish I could clarify without seeming defensive. It isn't that their father isn't on board. He doesn't expect me to cook clean and wipe their asses:) He's appreciative and gracious, and he's kind and thankful with me. He expects better behavior from them when they're alone with me and they are not defiant with him. While he lets them negotiate more than I'm comfortable with, they absolutely do not speak disrespectfully to him nor are they ever blatantly defiant (i.e. "I will not ___" or "I don't have to"). The problems occur when it's just the kids and I. If they are disrespectful to me in front of him, it's an immediate correction. But if he's not here, since I cannot physically make them do things, I have a hard time "making" them follow the rules. If he's here, it's not an issue. But he's at work 9 hours a day, so that's when things get hard.