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More ruined plans!! Wondering when the attorney’s will actually do something.

Biostep7777's picture

So, DH has his kids over the 4th of July weekend. BM told him that her brother and his family are coming in to visit. However, DH informed her right away that we already had plans for that weekend so he would not be able to accommodate a switch. She didn't say anything else (this was in March) 

DH gets two weeks of vacation during the summer. He picked a week in July and in August as they have other activities the rest of the summer and vacation with BM. She then later told him the boys have things for THAT week in August that he picked for vacation as well. 
 

So, he said "okay I'll just take the week of the 4th for vacation then since it's literally the only other week." Problem solved. No biggie on our end so switching was not a problem right? 
 

Wrong! She came back and said that she already asked him to be flexible for the 4th of July weekend because she has family coming in. Remember. He told her that he could not accommodate as we have plans! Then she said. Omg. I just can't: 
 

"if you do not allow them to be with me and their cousins on the 4th of July, I am afraid it will further damage your relationship with your children if you block them from being with their family and their cousins who they love. They are fully aware they are coming and so excited, please don't hurt our kids. you can pick another week for vacation. I will be flexible. Or we can swap a few days. I'll have them the 2nd-5th and you can take maybe June 30-2nd (which is already HIS CUSTODY TIME) dear god. 

Manipulative much? WOW! 
 

So, we also have family coming in, we have plans to go to the lake on the 4th. But, because she already told the boys about their cousins. Here we are again in this situation. 
 

This is typical and not surprising. I'm just wondering when our attorney's will wake up and do something about this. They keep saying we will file contempt but they don't do it. We have at least 30-40 contempt charges on her since November. Yes, you heard that right. I get the courts are backed up and they don't want to aggravate the judge but wtf?  FILE ALREADY!! Anyway, just another rant.
 

We are letting them go BTW. I don't want to deal with their crappy attitude while my kids and I are trying to enjoy my family visiting. Lol! At this point, I am just like "let her have them so we can enjoy our lives" DH has been agreeable.  I'm just aggravated that the attorney's will not file for contempt already. 

CastleJJ's picture

Your attorneys are not going to do anything and the judge will not rule in favor of contempt. That's a waste of time.

Your BM pulled the same words from our BM's mouth. The issue is that your DH is being wishy washy with his communication with BM. My DH did this and it caused us major issues in court because it showed inconsistency. Your DH picked his weeks, there is no changing it. BM doesn't get to weasel her way to change it. Unfortunately, your DH has fallen down the BM rabbit hole and tried to "cooperate" with her, so it may be too late for this summer. He made the communication muddy and played right into BM's hand. It is a normal PAS tactic to tell skids about something before communicating with DH about it. Our BM did this. We still took the visitation and if SS missed out, too bad, that's life. Kids don't get everything they want. SS has never seemed greatly impacted by what he misses out on. 

Our BM promised SS a Christmas party with friends for the same date and time DH and I were picking SS up to take him on vacation to Disney World. We had confirmed dates and times in April of that year so 8 months before the trip. BM only promised this party because she was mad that we took her to court. She pulled the same wording "SS is so excited about this. Please let him do this. It's in his best interest and your choices are hurting him." Seriously?! A children's Christmas party over Disney World?! Total PAS tactic. We took BM to court over it and the judge ruled SS could attend the party for 1 hour. BM was thrilled because she thought it derailed our trip. Jokes on her, SS forgot about the party the second we hit the road and we had a wonderful time! 

Going forward, you need to demand that the CO sets specific dates for summer. Our BM tried to move visitation around and we had our CO state "DH will exercise summer parenting time in two two week blocks, with the first block starting the first Saturday of SS' summer break at noon and ending at noon 14 days later. DH will exercise his second block starting the fifth Saturday of SS' summer break at noon and ending at noon 14 days later. The official school calendar dictates start dates for summer visitation." The judge in our case added a stipulation that BM can move the dates around to accomodate sports (she has to provide notice at least one week in advance of first scheduled visitation), but that DH has to maintain the two week blocks in their entirety, so they cannot be broken down into single days or weeks here or there. 

Your DH needs to set the standard going forward that the days he picks (or the CO dictates) are firm and he is not flexing for BM. It is not DH's problem if BM booked a vacation or is having family visit during DH's time. That's her problem. You cannot flex with women like this. Our CO clearly spells out every visitation with dates and times and BM does not fight those because they are set. Flexibility is not your friend when dealing with HCBMs. If you flex once, you'll be flexing forever. Been there, done that, learned from it. Once this gets set in stone, DH's default response needs to be: "Per the CO, my visitation occurs x date/time to x date/time. I will be exercising my visitation as the CO states. Going forward, please do not schedule (vacations, family visits, parties, etc.) during my visitation. It is not in the best interest of our coparenting relationship." I think once you establish a pattern of following the CO and refusing BM's requests, you will see her start to calm down because she knows she can't manipulate and get her way. 

Biostep7777's picture

Yeah we need to get to actual court to make this happen. We filed LAST March. And STILL waiting on a court date with nothing in sight. The issue is the agreement is wishy washy so lots of room for interpretation. 
 

However, this wasn't actually about the vacation time. This was about the weekend over Independence Day, it is DH's weekend. She asked for flexibility because her family was visiting. DH told her months ago that he could not accommodate because we had set plans already. 
 

She ignored him and now in May she's saying "I asked you for flexibility. Why would you not want your kids to spend time with their cousins that they live so much. Why are you doing this to us?? You are hurting the kids by blocking them" 

All because we told her we already have plans. You really think we are going to go to court and the judge is going to favor dad not "allowing the kids to see their cousins because he's such a monster" which is exactly what she's going to pull and GET AWAY WITH. We all know this. They get away with everything. So, why fight. Why have miserable kids who are going to be awful if they are with us. Why ruin our time? Why have my kids have to deal with their drama. No thank you. We are never going to win in court. She turns everything around to her advantage and since our attorney's just keep letting her do it. It's showing there is no problem. There is no winning here. Not for us anyway. 
As for vacation weeks. The agreement just says they pick the weeks starting on their normal custody time. He picked a week. She said they have activities . So, he picked the other week. She said they have family visiting and she's trying so hard to work with him and be flexible and she just wants what is best for the kids and she will just do whatever it takes and please do this for our children it means so much to them. 
So, he's suppose to say no? That will not help him in court. That will actually make him look really bad. 

tog redux's picture

But this is where he caves, and gives in, when she spews her nonsense about how the kids will hate him. Ignore that, it's just noise.

He could say:

BM, As we already discussed we will not be switching dates, I'll pick up the kid at X time on Y date.

Why did he give in because she spewed her PAS crap?  As we said in the last post, if you choose to deal with it that way (which is fine), then expect her to try to get her way every single time that she wants something. You can't give in and then be mad that she forced you to give in, since it really was your choice.

And do you know for sure that the kid would be miserable? Try it - my SS wasn't miserable when BM pulled this crap, he often didn't even know she was doing it.

 

CastleJJ's picture

THIS. I dont care if it's a vacation or a single overnight, your DH does not shift visitation for BM; not by hours, days, or weeks. It is a trap. BM can schedule whatever she wants during HER visitation time and NOT during DH's visitation time. Anything that BM schedules on DH's time goes ignored and skids do not attend. 

Your BM is going to spew PAS if you cave and give into BM or stand up to BM. It won't make a difference. By standing up to BM consistently, you will eventually find peace. You either need to drop rope completely with no contact or pony up and fight/refuse BM consistently, otherwise you will be in this back and forth hell forever. 

I agree and have had the same experience as Tog. BM spewed all this crap that "Your hurting SS. He is so excited. Please let him do this. Blah blah blah." In reality, BM told us she promised or told SS, but never did. SS had no idea what BM had planned and was oblivious. He was never mad at DH or I for "making him miss out on things." 

tog redux's picture

Stick to the BIFF, don't let her manipulate with her nonsense.  She chose to invite her family AFTER she knew you had plans, you can demonstrate that timeline with emails and texts. 

Don't count on the courts, just stand up to her. 

CastleJJ's picture

The response needs to be:

"Our CO/agreement states I have skids every other weekend from x time to x time. You emailed me on x date requesting flexibility on x weekend. I informed you that I could not switch/swap/etc. that weekend as we had already made plans for that weekend. I did not receive a response from you. Now, you are stating that you have already informed skids of plans you have made during my parenting time, when I did not agree to a switch. This is not in the best interest of our coparenting relationship. Since I did not agree to the switch, and you disregarded it, I will be exercising my parenting time as stated in our CO/agreement. I look forward to seeing skids on x date at x time."

Exjuliemccoy's picture

It's the perfect template for responding to your HCBM. 

I had the interesting experience of observing how good boundaries kept HC OSD in line after her divorce. She's a narcissist and Golden Uterus used to getting her own way by raging, bullying etc, which cost her first marriage. Her ex husband (once his balls dropped) dropped napalm on her in the divorce and was adamant about his parenting time. He had to be, because OSD was a bitter alienating b who practiced PAS freely and openly. We had plenty of gatherings on weekends the grandkids couldn't attend because they were with their dad, and not once did I hear the grands complaining - because it was their norm and they went with the flow because there was a consistent schedule. The ex even showed up to a football clinic (that OSD had put their son in despite it being on her ex's weekend), collected his son, and left. This only happened early on, because OSD soon learned that she was up against AN UNYIELDING, SUPERIOR FORCE. 

Court is not a magic wand. It starts with your SO, who doesn't seem to understand the rules of engagement for HC exes. He's allowed BM to bully/manipulate him enough times that she knows It's worth trying, so it's going to take time and consistent stonewalling to retrain her. He should be following the rules of parallel parenting, responding with the exact same boilerplate responses each and every time. No favors, no compromising, no discussion - that feeds her. Just dry, boring legalese quoted from the CO, contempt charges EVERY time she steps out of line, and a breezy response of "I don't know why your mom does these things when she knows the custody schedule. It's not fair to you." when they repeat the poison spewed by their mom.

 Emotional thinking is not helpful here. Get on the parallel parenting train, and run BM over with it.

Biostep7777's picture

This sounds so easy. This is not so easy though. These kids are older. They are incredibly enmeshed with their mother and they are alienated. She is an absolute monster who will put our lives through even more hell if DH did these. The kids absolutely would be horrible to us and completely ruin our weekend. I get it. I do. It's awful! It's hard. We are both frustrated and confused and we hear 500 different stories and it's just horrible! This is hell on earth. We need a better CO to fall on. We need a PC. We need outside help. There is no.winning.with.her. There's just not. She is turning the kids against him and this will absolutely set her over the edge to accusations, complete alienation and the kids will hate their father. They are right at the edge. One thing will set them over and he is terrified and he should be. She is dangerous. But try and tell the courts that. Lol!!!  They would laugh in his face, call him a shitty father and hand the kids right over to her. We truly don't know what the right answer is. 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

I'm sorry. I get it. The stress, the not knowing what to do and feeling lost in the process. My DH and I sometimes had screaming matches on the drive home from court because we were both so tightly wound. Everyone has an opinion, but what's best? We were babes in the woods, getting screwed over repeatedly by a system that doesn't work or really care about kids all that much.

I think you should choose a strategy and stick with it. But first, find out for certain what your attorney has done on your behalf, and when. He can offer advice, but ultimately works for YOU. Make sure he has indeed filed a petition with the courts, and when. Find out what the hold up is. If he isn't doing the job, demand your retainer be returned. We had to do that with the first attorney we hired.

I don't know your whole story, but if your attorney has advised you to go after full custody, fire him. You'll never get it, but he'll happily take all your money until you realize it isnt going to happen. You need a detailed, air tight CO and an order for all comms to be routed through a court approved app like Our Family Wizard or TalkingParents. That's what will realistically afford the most peace. Don't waste money battling for kids who are going to PAS out.

The challenge for you is to be suppprtive and manage your stress while maintaining your own boundaries. It sucks, because you have so little control yet it impacts your life so much. Try to remember that this isn't even your fight and practice self care.

Biostep7777's picture

No, the attorney told him to be flexible and reasonable. He's not giving up vacation time. She's asking him if he would "be a dear and switch with her so the kids can see their cousins" is he suppose to say "too bad, no" 

Who will look bad in this scenario? 

tog redux's picture

Her, if it's presented that he asked for that time ages ago and she invited her family anyway.  All this is going to show is that he's okay with BM being in charge of everything. 

ESMOD's picture

I think, to a point, it would look bad if he was so rigid that one of the kids was going to miss something that was required by school/extracurricular activity because of scheduling.  LIke, if all band members have to attend a week of summer "advance practice".. then it would be wrong to be inflexible if this is something that would be viewed as a beneficial activity for the child.

But, when you start being flexible.. you also have to take into account that when you have visitation switches... there is always the chance something will be missed while the child is at one home vs the other.

If it is a case where your DH has chosen weeks.. then BM plans a cousin visit on "his" time.. then that is on her.. she allowed something to be scheduled then.

If mandatory band turns out to be during one of those weeks... Dad should try to make the switch up if at all possible.. and he should get pretty liberal choice of what other time he gets..   At some point.. the kids will have to make choices like.. "well.. if you go to the band camp you are going to miss the cousin visit.. because we have plans to go to the lake that week.. )

 

Ispofacto's picture

"BM, the kids miss things at our house during their time with you.  It's happens.  Parenting time is important.  I will no longer entertain your scheduling things during my parenting time.  Stop putting the kids in the middle by complaining to them.  You are upsetting them."

Then ignore all of it.  She's going to PAS them regardless of what you do.  And no, the courts will never help you.

 

CastleJJ's picture

The response needs to be:

"Our CO/agreement states I have skids every other weekend from x time to x time. You emailed me on x date requesting flexibility on x weekend. I informed you that I could not accomodate your request for as we had already made plans for that weekend. I did not receive a response from you. Now, you are stating that you have already informed skids of plans you have made during my parenting time, when I did not agree to a switch. This is not in the best interest of our coparenting relationship. Since I did not agree to the switch, and you disregarded it, I will be exercising my parenting time as stated in our CO/agreement. I look forward to seeing skids on x date at x time."

Stick to the facts and only use facts that you can back up with email evidence, timestamped texts, etc. 

As far as picking weeks for summer, DH picks his weeks. BM doesn't get to tell DH no to his selection. Who gives a flying F if Skids have activities or if family is visiting, DH gets to pick the weeks. If she fights it, the comment is: "Per our CO/agreement, I am entitled to pick two weeks of summer visitation. I have selected x weeks from x date to date." Let BM freak out. The response is "My visitation dates are not up for discussion." THEN IGNORE and pick up kids on the dates you chose. 

Ultimately, get a CO that has established dates so DH isn't in the position to pick or negotiate with BM.

Biostep7777's picture

Agreed but we are not there yet. They have a wishy washy agreement and a TPA with not much info. We need to get to court. 

Ursula's picture

What can the attorney do if your husband is agreeing to her requests and demands?  He needs to stick to the court order.

Biostep7777's picture

That's my point. They are telling him to do it! Plus, would it really look good in the judges eyes if DH didn't allow the kids to visit their cousins? It will look bad that SHE is demanding they miss out on their family during DH's custody time and for the sake of the kids he allowed it since she already told them. It's too freaking much to fight with her. She loves it. She gets off on it, we just want peace. I just wish the Attorney’s would actually do something about her bad behavior rather then tell him "just keep fighting the good fight. This will all be exposed" 

Winterglow's picture

Does your dh understand that being flexible means making the occasional concession. It does not mean saying yes to all her demands and kissing her feet. In this case, your dh had previous plans when she made her request. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to say "sorry but no". Any other response will make him look as if he doesn't really care about seeing his kids... 

advice.only2's picture

Either your DH has a horrible attorney who doesn't understand high conflict exes, or your DH is being vague with his attorney and not expressing there is no working with BM.

Biostep7777's picture

Exactly. However, I am very curious if it has gone in a fathers favor that he completely stuck to the court order, was never flexible even if it was for the benefit of the child, would not swap any dates, would not do anything above or beyond the CO, completely stuck to it even if it meant the kids miss out on something amazing. 
 

In theory I get it. In reality. What would this look like to the judge? Has anyone ever done this and the judge said "good job sticking to the CO even if he hurt your kids" I just don't see that happening. That is were we are right now. All this stuff can come AFTER the CO. But, right now we need them to understand that this is a problem and THEY need to address it. 

tog redux's picture

I don't know that it's ever gone in a father's favor that he bent over and let BM give it to him every time she asked, either. 

Biostep7777's picture

Well he most definitely doesn't do THAT. But if what she's asking "seems reasonable" as in: if a judge looks at it and it seems like a reasonable request and DH just barks "NO I'm sticking to the CO no matter what" that won't look good for him. He absolutely does NOT give into "all her whims" this is why we are suing her for custody. 

tog redux's picture

I'll be honest, I think this isn't going to go how you hope, but I understand you are following the attorney's recommendations. What she asked does NOT seem reasonable, given that you had plans already.  If you had no plans, and it was a regular custody week, then yes, it would be unreasonable. But you guys giving up your vacation time because she intentionally planned it that way was not being unreasonable.

At any rate, if this is the plan until court, then don't plan anything with the kids. It's pointless.

advice.only2's picture

90% of the time the judge has already decided their course of action before you even get in front of them and before your attorney even speaks.

My DH would have mediation with Meth Mouth every time and they would never agree...they would then go before the judge. Most times the judge would order what the mediator had tried to get them to agree upon.

Exjuliemccoy's picture

This is where good documentation is your friend. If your SO can show the Court that BM asked for schedule changes X  number of times, Y times for this and Z times for that, it establishes PATTERN and a disregard for his relationship with the kids. Judges don't have time to read through the reams of emotional twaddle.

Winterglow's picture

In this case he had something already planned when she asked. Please explain to me how the kids spending time with their father is hurting them? 

She'll just have to better organize her family's visits better in the future... so that they fall on HER time. 

Biostep7777's picture

Yes. Agreed! But, she's an alienator who uses her kids as pawns to control him. If he does the same thing, it's hard to show who the actual alienator is. It's better for you him to point it out and say "I will not put our children on the position to feel like they have to pick so you have given me no choice because I will not put our children in the middle but I do not agree and you are hurting our kids" 

THAT will look good! My point is.... the attorneys need to POINT THIS OUT and freaking slap her with contempt already so she doesn't keep doing this. 

tog redux's picture

Have you ever been to Family Court? This isn't how it goes. I'd go ahead and not plan for any vacations if you guys intend to appear reasonable and give into BM's alienating tactics. 

My DH tried to be "reasonable" and allowed SS to go to a private school that BM picked out behind his back, with no notification whatsoever. It was a mess. BM asked the school to not give him any information, tried to cut him out entirely, and the court did bupkis.  It was a huge mistake, and DH knew it would be, but that's what the attorney advised. Attorneys do not understand parental alienation.

 

Biostep7777's picture

I have not been to family court. What do you advise? I'm all ears! What does work?? Yes, we are just doing what the attorneys tell us to do. 

tog redux's picture

I think you should not have given up your vacation for her in this case. Or should have insisted on a FAIR swap of time.  You could have shown that DH let her know about this vacation months ago, that you had made plans to leave the area, and that it would not work for you to give up that time. 

Biostep7777's picture

We didn't give up vacation time. We were going to switch weeks. We still have all of our vacation time with them. Are asked to swap time on the 4th of July. DH said we have plans. That when she said "but they have family coming and they know all about it and this is what they want to do and this is definitely what's in their best interest and I'll switch time with you, please just let them see their cousins they are so excited" 

he's suppose to say no? Yes we have plans. Bit her plans are the plans the kids want to do and trust me when I tell you. Not one of us wants to deal with their crap when they don't get what they want. I'm not going to ruin my time with my kids and family they will ruin it. No thank you! 
 

Bit the attorneys need to stop saying they are filing for contempt then not do it! 

tog redux's picture

Then fire them. If you ask an attorney to do something, they should do it, or give you a reason why it isn't done. But how can he file contempt if they don't have a real CO?

Biostep7777's picture

Sorry. They have a CO but it's ONLY a TPA. It's poorly written taken right from their separation agreement and it's vague and lots of room for interpretation. I meant we need a REALLY detailed CO that can't be taken any way the wind blows. 

Ispofacto's picture

Court Order + many repeated unagreed violations of Court Order = small chance of contempt

 

Biostep7777's picture

Oh yes let's ask her how "forcing the children against their will" to sornd time with their monster father is hurting them. She would LOVE this question so she can lie and scheme and list the million reason which none are true why they just can't tolerate one more minute with their father and they only want HER. Lol!!!  

advice.only2's picture

So they are going to trial? Or have they not even had mediation yet? I'm not sure how your state works, but here in CA you go through mediation first, if neither party agrees then they go before a judge who will make a ruling. Most times there is never a trial because the judge usually rules based off the recommendation of the mediator.

Judges/mediators really don't care about the mud slinging, all they see is two parties that they need to help come to "reasonable" agreements. Usually that means neither party fully gets what they want. Showing contempt has to be based on blatant disregards of the law. Since your DH's CO currently is BM gets everything then no she's technically not in contempt.

tog redux's picture

Right - exactly. She's not in contempt for scheduling something on your time, asking you for that time, and DH agrees to it. 

And in my professional experience, courts do recognize alienation, but they don't manage it right. They say, yes, she's pressuring the kids, but they say they want to be with her so ... what can we do? 

shellpell's picture

Life is too short for this shite, seriously. I wouldn't have my kids around this stress. 

Biostep7777's picture

Well it's certainly not that easy. My kids are happy and they love their home, their stepdad and they have a full and happy life. They do feel the strain of this sometimes but they understand that the boy's mom has a sickness and sick people can't help being sick. They do not feel the tremendous stress we feel. I vent on here but then I focus on my Family and let it go while with my kids.

simifan's picture

A TPA is a court order until there is another order. This is not going to go the way you think it is. Take a look at justmakingthebest's posts. Her BM forged a Dept. Health note and got away with it. Still no contempt. I shudder to think how much her SO has spent of attorney fees for nothing. Her SS is completely PAS's. 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

Get on YouTube, and search for family court proceedings. There are many videos, looong boring ones with droning attorneys, falsely patient judges, and little accomplished. 

CastleJJ's picture

I'm just going to simplify this and stick to your original question because I feel like this blog got out of control: If BM scheduled a visit with her family after you told her you cannot switch weekends and you do not let the skids go, does it look bad to a judge?

The answer is "No." BM asked for a switch, you took BM's request into consideration and you said "No" because you already had plans. This is completely reasonable. Plus, every time DH asked for his vacation weeks, BM had no problem saying "No" due to x, y, and z that benefits her or her PAS tactic. All you need is the email proof to back it up, which it sounds like you have.

The more you cave, the more BM will play the game. Your BM is an alienator; she will spin anything you do, good or bad, to suit her narrative and win her fight. You fight her and the narrative is "he is impossible to coparent with and unreasonable" or you cave to her and "He gave up time with his kids; he doesn't care." You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. 

Your attorney sounds like a loser. I would really question whether COVID slowed down your trial or if your attorney effed something up. Over a year without any sort of court date seems weird. Your attorney might be milking you for $$ and sees you as an easy target. The more he can delay, the more money he makes for consulting and coaching you. Attorneys are notorious for dragging things out. You need a shark to combat PAS. If you keep giving into BM to "look good for the judge" you will lose your case because it won't show a pattern of conflict. My DH only gained traction in his case when he started sticking to the CO, fighting BM, and demonstrating that he disagreed with her tactics. 

At the end of the day, you can fight BM to make your lives easier or you can keep going around this ferris wheel of hell that you've been spinning on. You may get a fair judge or you may get a BM favoring judge; both of these things are out of your control. All you can do it document, remain consistent, and fight the fair fight. 

Biostep7777's picture

Thank you! This is helpful.  I think the struggle is that she does put the kids in the middle and will tell them "dad won't let you see your cousins and forcing you to be with him" and that willl just push them further away. They are right on the line of being completely alienated and DH is terrified. 

CastleJJ's picture

BM is always going to put the kids in the middle because it follows her agenda. You can't control what BM does, you can only control how you respond to it. If skids act weird or pissy or parrot BM's PAS messages during your visitation, you ignore it, redirect it, and act normal. You ask skids questions that get them to critically think about the PAS and why it's occurring/why they feel the way they do toward DH. There is an old video called "Welcome Back Pluto" that teaches this skill to combat PAS. You continue to provide consistency and stability for your skids in your home because lord knows they aren't getting it BMs. You don't spoil/cater to them and you discipline when needed. You continue to tell them that you love them and you model strong and appropriate boundaries for them. They will either PAS out or they won't, but either way, it won't be your fault. Either way, you can't prevent it. 

It is not your DH's job to be their friend or to spoil them to prevent him from losing them. It is his job to raise them to be productive members of society. Think about the example DH is setting for skids. If DH continues to be weak and cave to BM, it is showing the skids that they have power over DH and they will likely use and abuse DH well into adulthood, only calling or having a relationship with him when they want money, nice gifts or a fancy trip, and then cutting all contact when DH fails to deliver. They will turn into mini BMs toward DH because they know it is effective to get what they want, since, hell, BM has been successfully manipulating DH for years. If DH shows consistency, strength, and stability, they may still PAS (not you/DH's fault), but at least they won't attempt to use or abuse DH later on and if they do, they know they won't be able to get away with it. 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

BM's request is NOT reasonable. She wants your H to give up time with his kids on a major holiday, which is a huge ask in the world of custody. There's reasonable, there's flexible, and there's downright ridiculous.

It's like your DH is so beat down by the b that he has no idea what's normal any more. You have plans, period dot. She'll do what she does, froth at the mouth and try to manipulate. He needs to be a brick wall.

Biostep7777's picture

I think it's hard because I have never had a person literally say every single move we make, decision, act, the way we talk, breathe, sleep, think is wrong, weird, odd, bizarre, strange, disturbing. I mean when a person is doing this to you literally everyday it starts to mess with your mind. On top of it my husband is Autistic and she uses that as a way to abuse him. For 15 years he was SEVERELY mentally and verbally abused by her and the attorneys have never once brought it up. Not once. And she continues to do it. But there's nothing we can do? Just continue taking severe psychological abuse while she acts like she's the perfect mother and makes false accusations and they tell him be flexible and reasonable? This doesn't seem right to me at all. 
I'm furious! 

Exjuliemccoy's picture

Unless the abuse is well documented,  no court will care so it's up to you and your H to find ways to keep her out of your life. Parallel parenting and grey rocking her are two ways to do that. So is requiring all communication be done on a court monitored app. This will greatly reduce the barrage of texts/emails/calls, and either force BM to hide her crazy or expose it  for the Court to see.

Read up on High Conflict exes, Parallel Parenting, BIFF, Our Family Wizard, etc. Structure is a great weapon when dealing with these crazies. Your top priority should be to keep this abusive woman out of your lives, and your DH needs some different tools to do that. Because she has such a negative impact on him, limiting her ability to bully him is crucial, which is why getting a court ordered communication app is important. 

But before any of this can be done, your DH needs to sort out the attorney issue. Find out what's going on there, then let us know.

CastleJJ's picture

You have control over the abuse. It may feel like you don't, but you do. Our BM sent daily 10 page emails outlining the same things. She used the exact same wordings and manipulation that yours uses. Every response we sent was twisted and misconstrued to continue the drama. Even something as simple as "You said SS is getting sick and he is visiting us in a few days. Can I have your insurance card in case he needs medical attention during our visitation?" became a 3 day fight that led to BM accusing DH of medical insurance fraud... we didn't have her insurance card and SS wasn't even in our care at the time of the fight. She had something to say about every choice we made and things we did, even things that didn't relate to SS. We were questioned on our choices of housing, our wedding details, our relationship, our personal finances, our employment, how we used our PTO, DH being laid off due to COVID19, vacations, spending time with friends or family, etc. It got out of control. BM even let herself into our home and proceeded to access our second story. She filed false allegations of sexual misconduct against my BIL (who she and SS had never even met), used this to receive court permission to attend our wedding to "supervise" SS, and then went to court after claiming that BIL sexually assaulted SS AT OUR WEDDING! BM bullied DH for being laid off during COVID (like half of the country was), calling him a loser and unsuccessful. This layoff didn't prevent BM from getting her CS. BM told DH that SS couldn't be around my family because my mom slipped and said "Shit" once in front of SS. Trust me, I have seen it all. I had similar insecurities and experienced the "crazy making" that BM caused in my life, my marriage, and my household. I was fearful to do anything or live my life due to BM's abuse. I used to experience major anxiety attacks when BM would email. 

Strong boundaries made all the difference. Once DH stopped caving and accepting the abuse, it stopped. DH only replied to necessary emails using the BIFF method, keeping it to one or two sentences. He did not reply to every email. All pick ups, which used to occur at our home, now occur at a neutral public location. DH no longer takes phone calls or texts from BM. Anything not sent by email goes ignored as if it were unreceived. Messages about our personal life, criticisms and anything that does not pertain to SS in regards to school, sports, medical, or confirming CO visitation goes ignored. We went from several emails a day from BM to sending one email every two to three weeks; all emails are now mostly civil and only pertain to factual information such as date, times, locations, etc. Sure we get the occasional dig or snide comment, but it is so minor in comparison to what we experienced before. We made that change happen by implementing strong boundaries. 

It sounds like you need a better attorney. You can stop the abuse, you just have to learn to get over your insecurities about being "bad" or "wrong" because you aren't either of these things. You also can't concern yourself with how this will all look to a judge because you can't base your daily life on a court case. You'll either win or you won't, but how you responded to one email or how you made one choice won't make or break that, especially if those choices don't involve skids. Live your life how you want to live it and to hell with BM. 

Biostep7777's picture

Thank you so much!! Truly! This has been one of the most helpful posts for me. Just validating that I'm not crazy. I needed that. Seeing that what you have been through and understand. How would you and DH handle a situation like this? We had family plans. She went and made family plans as well, told thd kids, they are super excited to see their cousins and she will tell them it's DH's fault if we do not allow it because we also have family plans. We just really don't know what to do and struggling. Mostly because we don't want to deal with the aftermath of her abuse and stepsons will be screaming and crying the entire time ruining our family visit. 

CastleJJ's picture

I think it is probably too late for this summer, since it sounds like you have already agreed to the switch. You can't go back now. 

But going forward, you do exactly as I outlined in my other post above. You take the visitation as it is ordered and you do not give in. You use the BIFF method to tell BM "No," making it explicitly clear that you will not switch and that you will see skids from x date to x date. And don't you dare feel guilty about it! Kids (even nonSkids) are going to miss stuff, that's just life. Not everyone gets what they wants. You need to downplay the severity of the situation, because HCBMs always tend to dramatize these situations. A missed visit with family isn't the end of the world, even if BM makes it appear that way. 

If skids scream, or cry, or parrot BM's PAS messages during your visitation, "It's all your fault, I'd rather be with BM, you did this to us, I hate you, etc.", you ignore it, redirect it, and act normal. You explain the facts:

1. DH and BM agreed to this visitation schedule on x date.

2. On X date, BM asked for a switch. You apologized and refused because you had already made plans to do with skids. 

3. BM disregarded this, made plans anyway, and then got the skids all excited without consulting DH. It was unfair of BM because it wasn't her visitation time to give away.

4. You explain that you hope skids will be able to see cousins again and that BM will be sure to schedule it during her visitation or have DH actually agree to a weekend swap before she makes plans. 

You can empathize with them and validate their feelings.You explain to the kids that you love them and that it is important to you to have a strong relationship with them and quality relationships involve in person visits. You ask skids questions that get them to critically think about the PAS and why it's occurring/why they feel the way they do toward DH. You also don't try to spoil them or fill their whole visitation with fun to overcompensate for their disappointment. This will lead them to believe they can abuse DH and you emotionally to get what they want. They will only visit if they know you have fun things planned and will withhold contact if you don't. 

There is an old video called "Welcome Back Pluto" that teaches this skill to combat PAS. It is a documentary made by licensed psychologists. You can Google it and find it. It's well worth the watch and will explain how to combat PAS and how to deal with it as the receiving parent. Taught us tons. 

Biostep7777's picture

Thank you!!! So, we actually didn't agree to switch. What happened was: DH has two weeks vacation with the kids in the summer. He picked a week in August. She started saying "they have this and that on that week" So he said "that's fine, I'll just take the other week that I'm entitled to" (which was over the 4th of July). That's when she said "I already told you they have cousins coming blah blah blah" So he asked her to clarify and said "wait, are you saying you want the week of July 2-9th? And she said "that works. Let's go with your suggestion" 

lol!!! He never suggested it!! He asked her to clarify if she was saying she wanted that week even after he told her we had plans because he wanted to be clear this is what she was asking. There was never an agreement to switch any time with her. He was just switching his vacation week to a different vacation week which both were ON HIS TIME. There was no switching anything WITH her. She just said he can't do that because  she expects the kids when she wants then and she thinks that's perfectly okay. (There are a couple days in the week that are on her custody time sk he can just take the week over her custody days) She already told the kids that their cousins are coming. So, now we are just like "what do we do???" I hope all that made sense. 

tog redux's picture

It's confusing. Was July 4th on her time, and he picked it? Then she said no, that won't work because of the cousins? Or was the July 4 week planned a while ago, and now that she found out you guys are going with family, she wants them?

I agree with CastleJJ.  Strong boundaries, lots of ignoring and ZERO emotional reactions or arguments will make BM settle down.

Biostep7777's picture

Okay so: 

Their vacation weeks that they are entitled to pick start on "the weekend of their normal custody schedule" So: his normal custody weekend starts on the weekend of the 4th of July so that is one of the weeks he can pick for vacation. However, they have to have dates in by April 1st and if they can't agree then mom gets preference on odd years and dad on even years. However, that doesn't even make sense because they can't even take vacation time that starts on each other's weeks. Also, his normal schedule is every Thursday and every other Thursday-Monday so if she doesn't agree to him taking the whole week he can't because his normal time ends on Monday. I am not sure I'm making any sense! Lol. Let's just say their agreement that is now the TPA for the time being is extremely poorly written and lots of room for interpretation so we feel backed in a corner all.the.time. 

Biostep7777's picture

No. He picked the August week. After April 1st she stated saying they have this and that the week in August so he said "well I will just take the week in July then" that's when she says no because she has family coming to visit even though he already told her we had plans (not vacation...just weekend plans) 

tog redux's picture

So then, he should go back to the August week and take that one. You do realize that she's going to say NO to any week he picks, so just pick one and stick with it. Ignore her. Set the dates and show up for the kids then.

Biostep7777's picture

Also, thank you. This makes so much sense! I appreciate it and we will take a look at that video. 

CastleJJ's picture

If she took that as a suggestion, your DH should have sent a follow up email stating "That was not a suggestion. That was a question for clarification. My question is not me agreeing to a switch. Again, are you requesting that you have x week? Is that what you are asking? Yes or No?" 

Biostep7777's picture

Yes, he did do that. He asked her what she meant and clearly said are you asking for this or are you asking fir that? she said "I was clear" lol! 

CastleJJ's picture

So then what is he going to do? It sounds like you're in limbo. Is he taking the time or not? 

Biostep7777's picture

Yes. He's going to make sure he has the kids on his custody time. It's going to cause WW3 but he is not going to let her do that. 

CastleJJ's picture

It will be, but all changes, even the good ones, come with hard times. You will be so thankful you did this later on. Take everything one day at a time and don't let yourself fall for the crazy making. You are not in the wrong here and you never were. Live your life however you want to, you don't need permission for that. 

tog redux's picture

Yes, also, OP - this will get worse before it gets better. When he sets this boundary, she will flip her shit and ramp everything up exponentially. Expect extreme PAS statements, threats of court, and even her withholding the kids because she didn't get her way.  If he normally gets 10 emails a day, he will get 40 after this. Don't give in, don't argue, just set the boundary and IGNORE.  Show up at the time to get the kids even if she threatens to withhold them. 

CastleJJ's picture

YES! ^THIS^ It always gets worse before it gets better. That's how you know it's working! 

tog redux's picture

Yes, and even if she DOES withhold the kids, that will work in OP and DH's favor in court.  You and I have both experienced this "extinction burst" and the peace you finally get on the other side.

BM here tested the waters after that but every time DH shut her down by ignoring.  She fishes around every couple of years, gets radio silence, and gives up quickly.

Biostep7777's picture

Oh boy! The drama continues. We checked SS's phone. 
he told his mother "the reason they want us over 4th of July is because *stepkoms* family is coming" 

then mom came back and said "well maybe she will understand that you rather spend time with your own family" 

tog redux's picture

Yep, this is how it goes. Just ignore.  Do you guys look through his phone for a reason? I'd suggest that you not do that for dirt on BM.

I know it's too late now, but next time, do not tell the kids anything, ever.

Biostep7777's picture

Yeah that's exactly what we are doing. We didn't tell him anything. Just using for evidence. 

tog redux's picture

Just beware, that can backfire in court, if the judge is the type to see it as an invasion of BM and SS's right to have a private conversation. Also, that exchange alone doesn't show alienation - if she had said, "your father is a jerk for making you see SM's family over yours" then maybe - but that just sounds like a mom empathizing with what her kid wants.

Your BM is clever like the one here.

If it comes up, tell SS that you guys made plans and told BM about them before she invited the family up for the 4th, so you will be sticking with your plans over that weekend. Not in an angry way, just informative. 

Biostep7777's picture

We have a folder 3 in thick with documentation of her alienation. Lol!!! It's definitely not just this one sentence. 

Winterglow's picture

Using it for evidence? As soon as your ss finds out that you were snooping through his phone, you will find that you alienated him all by yourselves... 

CastleJJ's picture

Yeah don't use it as evidence. It won't bode well. The judge won't think BM did anything wrong based on that text. She is empathizing like the poster above said. She didn't call out DH or say anything that will come off as PAS. It'll be a waste of your time and SS will resent you for it if he finds out. Plus, BM will use snooping against you and DH because she has the right to have a private conversation with her son. 

Ignore, ignore, ignore. 

Biostep7777's picture

Well this is a safety issue. She's psychologically abusing these kids so I think that's more important to dad than if SS is a little pissed that he saw what he saw. 
we have a binder 3 in thick of her alienation tactics including emails from her, therapist affidavits, teachers letters, texts ect... this is one little portion of that. 

Biostep7777's picture

She's already done that. Plus, my kids know I check their phones. Every parent I know does this. It's safety reasons and their mother is psychologically abusing them. I think it's reasonable to be able to check their phones. Their mom does it too.