Affection from BF to SD10
Hi, I'm new here, apologies if I'm not using the acronyms correctly. I'd like some advice and feedback. I'm into a 5 month relationship and it and he are wonderful. He has a 10 year old daughter 50% of time. She is very physically affectionate. Cuddles, climbs on, sits on lap, climbs in bed in the morning. Etc. (I'm not worried about sexual behavior from him at all and I don't think she even thinks of it. She's a very emotionally young 10 year old.
the specific situation that happened last night- we were watching a movie on the couch she was cuddled up in his arms and he made a point to hold me hand as well. She was in the middle. After movie she started climbing on him and ended up straddling hi lap and hugging him and slid down his lap to the floor. I saw this happen and had. a strong that I didn't like it. Later he texted what was wrong and I told him I'm still getting used to how physical she is with you. I grew up in a house with little physical affection especially not at 10. I told him I straddle you in that same spot. I made it clear I don't think there's anything wrong km just not used to it. His blew up and went off on how she was just hugging him and he's been fighting this her whole life because women don't think fathers and daughters shouldn't be affectionate and I wouldn't think that if it was a daughter and mom.
So my thinking is this and would like thoughts- Ive never been in a relationship with a parent before and I am still navigating what that looks like for me. That when I see any behavior that mimics what my role is as a partner I will have a reaction. Similarly he called me sweetheart and she got upset because he calls her sweetheart. That same night he called her sweetheart and I assumed he was talking to me. It feels complicated when behaviors are treated the same in anyway. Be a pet names or the same physical display. (Obviously to a lesser extent)
i'd like to use that reasoning when I talk to him about what happened. But I'm wondering if I'm missing anything being that I just don't know how to navigate this.
You are 5 months in? This is
You are 5 months in? This is a red flag for a "mini wife." Not necessarily sexual but a situation where the roles are reversed and some of the privileges of the wife/partner are given to the daughter, and possibly the girlfriend/wife being scolded like a child. Your boyfriend is not fully acting like a parent so the daughter does not respect appropriate boundaries. She feels in competition with you and vice versa. Him immediately criticizing you and defending her behavior is a bad bad sign for a future of misery for you. And he is full of sh!t about how nobody would criticize that behavior if it were with a mother. That would be really fking weird if a daughter straddled her mother and slid down to the floor and got mad about her calling a man "sweetheart."
Thanks Rumplestiltskin- the
Thanks Rumplestiltskin- the mini wife is what I am concerned about after reading so many posts on here. I am going with insinct up to this point. I don't know anyone in a "step family" and very few people in my life have kids so just don't know. She has always been this affectionate with him even prior to me, I think it increases slightly when I am around but this is just how they are together. She does tell him she is worried they won't have time together if he and I get married, which seems a normal concern and he talks to her and reassures her they will.
I am concerned about his reaction to me bringing it up though. And of course we are supposed to leave or Christmas to his family's house out of state. Not sure that's a good idea anymore…
What level of affection is ok? Should she be cuddling with him during a movie if I am there. Not sure I would want to cuddle with him if she was there. It's all akward and uncharted territory for me and them. I'm the first woman he's introduced to his daughter since their divorce 5/6 years ago.
To answer your question…
"What level of affection is ok? Should she be cuddling with him during a movie if I am there. Not sure I would want to cuddle with him if she was there."
I really don't know. Maybe the real question is, can this guy watch a movie without cuddling one of you? Or, regardless of the answer, does it sound like a fun or relaxing evening if you can't watch a movie without both you and the daughter vying for who gets to cuddle him and ending with you feeling like shit? Sounds like a lot of stress and you are 5 months in. Wouldn't it be more fun to be in a relationship with a guy who you know, without question, wants to cuddle with *you*?
Also to add, he's doing his
Also to add, he's doing his daughter a disservice by possibly using her to meet his emotional needs and needs for physical affection, and possibly not acting in the role of a parent to her. Kids need boundaries.
Hugs and kisses? Yes.
Hugs and kisses? Yes. Snuggling against dad on the couch to watch a movie? Yes. Stradding him with her genitals against his and sliding down to the floor? Nope.
I'd get out now if I were you. You clearly aren't the only woman who thought this was inappropriate.
The straddling is what threw
The straddling is what threw me. The day before I was straddling him in the exact same spot. The similarity was just too close for comfort. The coming into the bed in the morning for "cuddles" I don't like but I have heard that is normal until about 12??? I don't think she thinks of anything sexual she is 10 but emotionally I would lean closer to 7. It's unfortnate because she is also very tall for her age so she looks closer to 12. All very confusing. I agree tog redux, there is definitely history of someone saying something about affection becuase he brought a lot of anger and baggage to his reply.
Kids at that age have sexual
Kids at that age have sexual feelings. They know it feels good to touch themselves on the genitals and rub them against things. It's totally inappropriate for him to let her do this and also to have her in bed with him. No one is saying he can't have age-appropriate affection with his kid.
What is considered age
What is considered age appropriate for a 10 year old?
Not straddling ones father,
Not straddling ones father, that's for sure.
This is a tough one
I share a 4yo with my partner and she's a little snugglebug right now. Depending on her mood she may prefer cuddles with only dad. And sometimes only with me. And as I hold her I dread the day she's too old for me to squeeze like this. I hope I won't be too uncool for my daughter when she's 10. But I guess the difference here is that I don't get upset when she wants a moment with her dad. Because at the heart of it, I know there's no sense of competition for affection. He loves us both in completely different ways.
I get where your boyfriend feels upset at the mention of you not liking him expressing affection for his daughter. He loves her of course and he's interpreting your words as if showing affection is wrong. But more importantly the fact that both you and his daughter gets upset when he shows affection for either of you means that he hasn't done a good enough job making either of you feel secure. To answer your question, you're not exactly missing anything but it may just be that he's not in the right headspace before he jumped into the dating pool. If he can't calmly listen to you, his intended life partner talk about how his actions make you feel uncomfortable without blowing up then there's not much hope for the relationship. You may have a valid point. Or you may be completely in the wrong. But the red flag is that there's no calm discussion to try and figure out why you're feeling what you're feeling and what he could do to help.
This
"But more importantly the fact that both you and his daughter gets upset when he shows affection for either of you means that he hasn't done a good enough job making either of you feel secure. To answer your question, you're not exactly missing anything but it may just be that he's not in the right headspace before he jumped into the dating pool."
Yep. Maybe that's the issue. This guy isn't managing the relationships in his life. He is either intentionally (yeah, some guys are so insecure they want to be fought over) or unintentionally acting in a way that encourages competition between girlfriend and daughter. Or, at best, doesn't discourage it.
Other opinions?
I am curious to hear an oppoiste opinion, maybe from a dad? I really want to understand his side and his POV so I am not just reacting. Especially since I have no kids of my own and my niece and nephews are all very little still. I had a friend growing up and they were a "naked family" (also eurpoean) and it was very normal for them and didn't think anything of it. I don't think that is what this is but I am wondering what the other side of it is.
But - you are listening to
But - you are listening to his point of view. He's not listening to yours.
My niece sometimes sits on her father's lap at age 25. Personally I think it's weird and gross. I have no issue with them hugging or kissing hello or goodbye, whatsoever, but the type of affection you have with a kid has to change when they get older.
Is the concensus that 10 is
Is the concensus that 10 is too old for that kind of affection?
It depends on what you mean
It depends on what you mean by "that kind of affection" - stradding dad's lap? Yes, I think she's too old for that, personally. I suppose there won't be a "consensus". But you should also consider what is comfortable for YOU. I couldn't have married into your European friend's naked family, personally, and kept my sanity.
talking points?
Any ideas on talking points to address this? There's a lot to unpack- how he reacted when I mentioned I was surprised with the physical affection, the actual behavior of her and if there should be bounderies, and how I feel about it. I feel like it comes down to partner roles and child roles and when behaviors mimic the opposite it's valid to have a reaction which I did.
I am careful not to critiscize his parenting and I have played a supporting "friend" role to her. I am feeling so overwhelmed but grateful I found this forum!
I don't even know where to
I don't even know where to start. I'm 25 years into a marriage with a father of a mini-wife. My SD is 32 years old and just as clingy and needy as ever. She was like your SD and both my DH and her fought tooth and nail to keep the enmeshment going. Anyone who said a word, no matter how gently, got their heads ripped off and shit down their throats. My DH and I are in intense marital therapy because I'm wanting to leave and he's wanting me to stay. Mini-Wife Syndrome is pathalogical. Any sign of evolvement or improvement and both the father and daughter will sabotage it to maintain the status quo.
Your SD is behind because that's what Mini-Wife Syndrome does. It keeps them immature and dependent. They do not meet milestones when their peers do, so don't make the mistake of counting down until your SD is 16 and gets a BF. She will not get a BF when her peers do, if at all. Don't make the mistake of counting down until she starts driving or launches. She's not going anywhere. My SD didn't get her first BF until she was 24 and even that didn't last long because when they moved in together, SD had skype open with DH 24/7 so that she could be in constant contact with him. The BF didn't want to "live with" DH, so he broke it off and of course SD clung to DH more than ever and DH fell for it because his little baby's heart was broken. I could not get through to him that the reason for her broken heart was because the obsession between DH and SD caused the demise of her relationship.
SD didn't launch until she was 25 and at 32, she's unbelievably clingy and needy with DH. She still needs constant contact with him. She's into one upmanship too. SS30 and SDIL were engaged and told us it's time for their families to meet because they're getting married and wanting to start a family. SD couldn't stand the thought of not being the first to give DH his first grandchild, so she suddenly came up pregnant even though she and her current BF broke up and got back together several times in less than a year. Everyone knows damn well that SHE planned the pregnancy and that the BF was not part of planning. Yes, he went without a condom and all that, but the fact remains that SD does what she does to garner all of DH's attention all of the time. You wouldn't believe the things she's done to divert DH away from EVERYONE else and onto her.
You will always come a distant second to your SD. It feels like a mistress. The definition of Mini-Wife includes the symptom that a SD doesn't feel like a daughter, but feels more like the other woman. Your SO does not know how to Dad and Partner at the same time. He's blurred the two and what you experienced is only the beginning of a soul-destroying experience. You can't even talk to him about it. He's gaslighted you and reacted very poorly to you, which shows that he's going to fight tooth and nail to keep his baybeeeee boo-boo doodles dependent and you can like it or lump it.
I have a bio DD21 with DH, so he can no longer gaslight me with the bullshit that since I don't have kids I don't understand. I would not want my DD to grow into a mini-wife and my DH knows it. I've made that quite clear that I will die trying before I allow her to turn into such a clingy needy cling-on. My SD is an off the charts attention whore too and her attention seeking has damaged the entire clan. It's quite a sick dynamic.
Run! Run fast and run far. Nothing good can come from your relationship. Your SO's comment indicates that someone has said something before, so just take that as satisfaction that it's not just you. Toss this guy back. He's already got a wife and it's not you. Trust me. I have the C-PTSD diagnosis from enduring way too many years in a mini-wife marriage. It's soooooooooooooooo not worth it.
He might have blown up at you
He might have blown up at you because he knows on some level that certain types of physical affection are inappropriate. And he doesn't want to deal with it, or doesn't know how.
Of course you should be able to approach a partner with concerns--any concerns. If he can't even discuss it without getting mad, then you have a real issue on your hands. No thanks.
He does need some physical boundaries with his daughter. That doesn't at all mean that they can't have any physical interaction, but it needs to be age appropriate. Deciding what that looks like is the tricky part, but that's where you need some open discussion. And I hope he'll do that. If he won't, do not fail to notice the big red, waving flag.
Do I think it's weird? Yes.
Do I think it's weird? Yes. Does that make it weird? Hard to say. Not having witnessed what happened exactly, the context of their relationship, and his parenting style, it's nearly impossible for any of us to tell you whether these interactions are inappropriate or not.
What is co concerning about this situation is that you're tiptoeing around what you actually feel while he is exploding when you slightly mention something that makes you feel weird. I understand it to some extent from his side: men who are affectionate with kids get side-eyed at best and called a pedophile at worst. Men aren't allowed to show affection unless it's sexual, so when someone challenges the affection they do show, especially towards children, the hidden context is that the affection being shown is sexual. I'm sure that's painful to hear and feel, and men tend to "fight" with their emotions (i.e. angry outburst) whereas women tend to "flight" (e.g. shut down).
I don't think you need to leave yet, but I do think you need to have a very frank conversation with your BF:
BF, I want to talk about the conversation we had about SD. The affection you show her looks similar to the affection you show me, and I am struggling with that. I do not believe you are being sexual with your daughter. It is just not something I have witnessed before and I have to process that myself. It's not fair to you that I end up in a bad mood because I haven't processed my own feelings yet.
That said, I don't appreciate you blowing up on me without giving me a chance to explain. I'm not a child and I won't tolerate being scolded because you misinterpreted my intentions and didn't ask for clarification. I'd like to understand why you were upset, but not if it's going to result in you berating me. Your tantrum caused me to consider stifling my feelings and modifying my behavior, not because I need to, but to prevent you from yelling at me. That makes me feel unsafe and insecure, and I don't want to feel that way in a relationship.
So, let's talk about what happened and why my comments made you feel the way you felt and find ways for both of us to communicate better."
If, in your soul searching, you determine that his behavior is genuinely weird toward his daughter or you cannot deal with the level of affection he shows even when it's not inappropriate, you should end the relationship. The sooner you can come to a conclusion on how you feel about it,mixed with his reception to the conversation above, the better.
Thanks so much for this,
Thanks so much for this, hearing that makes a lot of sense.
"mini wife"
Question on the "mini wife" does this behavior start prior to Dad entering a new relationship?
From what i can tell, it does
From what i can tell, it does. The father, either out of fear of "losing" the child or out of loneliness, does not act like a traditional parent/authority. They either kiss the child's a$$ so the child won't prefer mom's house, or use the child to meet their emotional and physical (nonsexual) needs. I don't know from a few paragraphs if that is going on here, but the kids in this type of situation usually have a lot of control over what goes on in the house. Dictating when they visit (instead of the adults deciding a visitation schedule), what is eaten for meals (instead of the adults cooking and them eating), and the kids often don't listen to the adults or help around the house much. Also they may not entertain themselves and constantly look to the adult to give them attention and provide entertainment.
Yes, it definitely does. My
Yes, it definitely does. My SD, who was in her early 20s at the time and engaged to be married herself, sobbed when DH told her we were getting married. "But DADDDDYYYYYY, I'LL take care of you when you're old." She firmly believed that her DADDDDDYYYYY could not possibly love someone else. Talk about weird.
I already had issues with my 2 sd’s walking side by
Side with my hubby aged 13 & 23 while i was expected to walk behind and have sd's answer me back. I put my foot down 3 yrs ago and said no more and my husband was forced to address this behaviour with his daughters.
he didn't realize at first what his daughters were doing until he had to think about what i said and he realized it was inappropriate.
no wat my husband would have his almost teen and above daughters straddling him and being allowed to behave as an alpha female
Part of a sentence in OP stands out to me..
"His blew up and went off on how she was just hugging him and he's been fighting this her whole life because women don't think fathers and daughters shouldn't be affectionate and I wouldn't think that if it was a daughter and mom."
Have other female adults brought this issue up to him in the past? If so, this is not a new situation for him and he KNOWS that other adult females are uncomfortable. Your BF needs to open his eyes and see that his 10 year old daughter is staking her territory. Another thought; is the skid like this all the time, even when you are not around? The skid is laying out her territory and you are in the way of her place in the pecking order. By your BF blowing up at you over this, you just became the other woman, because your BF holds his daughter higher than you.
As some others have said Major Red Flag. You need to think seriously about your relationship with this man. Picture the Skid at 14, 16 doing the straddling of her father, that is just gross, and he can't see that it is a boundary that should been set a long ago.
Many of us didn't have a website like StepTalk to talk with other SM's that were going through similar issues. Personally, if there was a website 30+ years ago and someone pointed out all the possibilities of Step Hell, I would have ran the other way. Life is too short to put yourself through the possible Hell that is coming your way with this man and Skid.
There is affection and there
There is affection and there is contact that is not particularly appropriate especially for her chronological age.. it's not like she is 4 years old.
As a father, it's his JOB to set appropriate boundaries for physical contact. And the fact that he BLEW UP is a red flag all in itself.. but it also seems like you are not the first woman to have this issue.
I would move pretty slowly with this.. his daughter may act young for her age because she is being treated that way.. he needs to encourage age appropriateness in his child.
Run, Run Fast
I am 10 years into a relationhip/marriage with a DH that has two daughters. When I first met him, he was still going through his divorce and so he walked on eggshells with his kids, fearing that if he said the wrong thing, they would go run to mommy and he would lose them. Therefore, the kids have grown up to be entitled and very bratty kids. The youngest is what I call the mini-wife. She slept in DH bed with him (no funny stuff happened), until she was 12 years old. Now she is 21 and lives with her mom 2 1/2 hours away and comes back once a month for a visit. But ever since I known him, she has always been a manipulative, lying brat. So when she says something like jump, the DH dummy says how high. To this day she still has that hold over him. I am a bio-less mom, so coming into a situation with two SD and not having the support of the DH has been hard for me. The older SD has been out of the house for three years now and she only calls when she needs something. My DH and I just moved into our own home for the first time in ten years and it seems like whenever the youngest SD comes around and I asked any questions, he gets defensive and gets mad at me. I have just recently discovered gaslighting and what the signs are. So I am now starting to fight to get my strong self back after losing her 10 years ago.
The youngest SD is with us on a break from school and has been here for almost a week now and will be here at least until after new years. Before she came I asked DH how long she was going to stay and he got mad at me. I have basically been told to keep my mouth shut and deal with things for the past ten years. Now, I'm trying to learn to be strong again because this is now my house also. Before we were living with his mom.
I thought that things would be better and things would change when the kids were grown up and moved out but I'm still having to deal with the youngest SD and how she thinks that she should be the only "woman" in her dad's life. I feel like I'm trapped now because we just bought a house and I feel like if I left, I would not have anything to show for myself.
Please think this out. If you cannot handle having a child around that acts like a mini wife, and will always be there in one way or another, then you really need to ask yourself if you can truly handle this situation. Your BF will always be a father to her and you will come second to her, no matter what he says. I thought that when we got married things would change and I was wrong. I still fight for what I think and we still get into arguments when I voice my opinion about something. If I knew how things were going to go when we got our house and the fact that I still wasn't going to have a say in what I wanted or what I thought should happen, I would've left a long time ago.
There are so many other fish in the sea. It's better to be by yourself and happy then with someone and unhappy. Life is too short.
"I thought that things would
"I thought that things would be better and things would change when the kids were grown up and moved out but I'm still having to deal with the youngest SD and how she thinks that she should be the only "woman" in her dad's life."
I thought this too. I thought that if my SD32 ever launched, it would be so much better because at least she wouldn't be in my house. There are many mini-wife stories in the Adult SK forum and it's quite common to see mini-wives become even more cunning and manage to ramp it up and cause havoc from afar.
This is all very helpful and
This is all very helpful and I appreciate the points of view but damn it's discouraging. I feel like there is no hope.
With a possible Mini-Wife...
Life can be absolute hell, if your BF is not willing to see your point of view on the situation. Most father's with daughters do not see the child from others point of view, especially if it's an only child. There are many of us on here that have dealt with what you are seeing and you either fight like crazy about inappropriate behavior or you walk away. The next thing he will say is "you don't like SD" or "Your Jealous of SD and his relationship", these two accusations are reason to walk away from the relationship, because it will never change.
Watch SD when she is acting all cuddly with BF, is she looking at you to see if you will react? My SD would pull this crap and smirk at me the whole time. DAH (Dumb A$$ Husband) and I would fight about this all the time. I got to the point where I would just roll my eyes and walk out of the room. This was not the reaction that SD liked, so she would ramp up her actions. I finally told DAH that if this continued people would assume that he was grooming his daughter to molest her. Also told him with his and SD actions that next time he wanted to get frisky, he needs to seek out his daughter. That went over like a lead ballon, but he finally started to see what others were seeing as inappropriate behavior.
I survived (barely) and left
a mini wife marriage. Not saying this is your route. But dang its torcherous.
He gets defensive...RED FLAG. Like bull running RED FLAG
My ex DH made ME feel like the sicko cause I even mentioned how him and SD are way too close for comfort. He blamed my upbringing and not having a good pops for me not liking watching my ex DH size up her ass..I never had a say, she was always there even when she wasnt. It was awful it killed me emotionally as a person. I tried so hard to be the perfect wife so he would see that I am good, and she is the rude bitch.
IT DIDNT MATTER! She won, well actually I WON. We divorced.
Hun having a mini wife is a soul crushing killer. Everyday you die just a little more.
Think hard. You deserve a man who is available.
Blessings
ETA it may be annoying that she is 10. JUST WAIT til she is a teen or young woman. Annoying wont be a good word to cover it. Your DH will have two women fighting over him. Its a sick sick dynamic. Save yourself
A thought...
Would you show your BF this thread? Show him how willing you are to understand his point of view and dynamic? He will see these responses. Chances are he would say we are a bunch of weirdos on the internet, that his dynamic with his precious poodle aint like this at all. BUT this will stay in his mind. He may rethink his approach with his DD. OR he will blow a gasket, full of more defensive BS. Dont want to get you in trouble, cause gawd knows no one blows a gasket like a defensive guilty daddio. Just a fleeting thought
Ooff. No I think he would be
Ooff. No I think he would be really angry if he knew I was talking about personal stuff. He doesn't think anything is wrong. I tried to talk to him today and we have to wait until she goes to bed becuase he doesn't want her "to think or change the way she acts towards me" so I think for now we need to discuss his reaction and how he exploded about the comment and I need to do some deep soul searching if this is something I can live (happily) with.
Next time she tries to
Next time she tries to snuggle in bed, ask him if he'd be ok with her snuggling in bed with his ex's latest man...
You might also take a photo of their behavior and post it on Facebook with a comment about how cute it is and wait for the reactions.
LOOL
Laughing Out out loud.
Oh boy posting on facebook is almost like burning platform!!!
This is gross on so many
This is gross on so many levels.
Look, I know some people are more affectionate with their kids than others but your stepdaughter has long reached the age where her Dad needs to set some firm boundaries.
Straddling him and sliding down his body is INAPPROPRIATE. You know it is, that's why you posted this blog. He should NOT be allowing or encouraging this AT ALL!
The fact that he got angry and defensive when you brought it up is one big scarlet flag.
Listen to your gut and rethink this whole relationship.
Nope nope and NOPE
Your whole post is one big NOPE.
You are trying to tiptoe through all this and not upset the applecart.
Read on here and re-read all comments.
Super inappropriate. When Husband and I first got together he was cosleeping with SD15 at 8 years old.
That stopped because guess what we were intimate in that very same bed. so nope to getting in bed with you.
Rubbing up against him. Huge nope. Grosss.
Him blowing up. Final nope.
If you follow the advice and have the heart to heart, you will know your answers. Keep reading on here. JRI can tell you. Ex Julie McCoy can tell you. Evil can tell you...years upon years of this.
Trust your instincts.
Trust your instincts. Your gut is telling you that some of the behavior you have seen is wrong, listen to it! Even if you feel like it is not that bad when you describe it, your intuition is picking up on something that is not quite right.
You have two issues here - your boyfriend is letting his daughter behave in inappropriate ways, and he is unwilling to have a rational discussion with you about it. Instead, he got mad and dismissed your concerns. Pay attention to both those "red flags."