OT Question I'm currently debating with a good friend

Forums:

So I post this not to cause argument in our community, b/c I think this is an issue that people feel strongly about, and I want opinions from you wise and knowledgeable women (men you can weigh in too if you wish). My friend and I are at odds over a dicey issue, and that is elective C-sections. It is a nonissue for either of us right now, but without going too far into it, we have a debate going. What do you guys think? Any experiences that you would like to share are welcome!

T

I had a c section

20 months ago. It was an emergency one after a failed induction & 24 hours of labor. My little guys heart rate shot up & he was in distress.

I had watched a lot of TLC The birth Story & had seen woman on there who still refused to have a c section after their Dr advised it & I had always thought what a bunch of idiots. The DR knows what he is doing.

My c section was a breeze. I really could have gone home the next day. I was off any pain pills w/in 3 days of being home other than ibuprofen for the inflamed nerves. People were amazed that I was as active as I was after it. One person told me their sister was laid up in bed for like two weeks afterwards. I was at the Mall of America with my baby & skids at camp snoopy.

However I would never just have one because it was convenient or so I could have a baby when I wanted one. BUT I fall back on my body my right. People are gonna do what they are going to do and it is their right.

What scares me more is an article I saw I designer babies where you can choose your babies eye color & stuff like that. I didn't get a chance to read the article but the headline scared me.
I turned 39 the month after my son was born. So I am older & with that comes risks. I never did genetic counseling or any of those tests. I put my faith in God that my son would be perfect & healthy and if he wasn't I would love him just the same. Who cares about what color his eyes are as long as he has sight.

I will now step off my soap box. One last thing on the c section, my tummy is droopy ( it wasn't flat before & lets face it I need to loose the baby weight & when I do it still wont be flat) but everything on the inside is as good as it ever was. Sorry if TMI.

no no that's exactly what is needed

the TMI stuff. thank you both for responding!!! I'll try to copy paste the table of pros and cons I found for both..

ugh the formatting was lost so it looks terrible. Here's a link for anyone that's interested.

http://www.babycenter.com/0_elective-cesarean-is-it-for-you_1498696.bc?p...

I have had 3

All my kids have been born via c-section. The first do to failure to progress - 72 plus hours of labor, the second was scheduled because I was 2 weeks late and baby was big almost 9 pounds and third I did not have a choice. Yes, I have the yucky, droopy tummy that only a tummy tuck will fix and I am pretty sure my insurance won't pay for it. I have done every exercise and every devise I can find to tone my belly to no avail - I can see results high on my stomach but nothing in the baby carrying region.

I don't think

it is a call that a woman makes. The attending physician makes the call and the health of the child and mother are the first considerations, not how saggy the stomach will be later!

I had 3 C's

They were scary and difficult. PAINFUL recoveries all three. I think any woman who thinks that's taking the easy way out is crazy.

My grandma had a son before my mom (mid 1930's) she was in labor a week and nearly died. She was too small to deliver (only 4'8") They scheduled my mom to be born via c-section in 1939.

I won't go into why I had to have mine but they were scheduled. I do think sometimes they should do a C-section sooner in a difficult delivery. I have several friends who endured 24-36 hours of labor, THEN something happened to throw them into an emergency C-section (A few of them the babies had bowel movements which is dangerous for mom and baby.) Then the poor women had to recover from long and horrible labor AND surgery often on NO sleep and nothing to eat for days.

I think their recovery time was MUCH longer than mine.

I always feel I missed out on delivering "the right way" but have tried to reconcile myself that I have 3 healthy kids. Oh- and the belly? I had no problem the first two times losing my belly. BUT the 3rd time the Dr (who also delivered my first) had to cut "a little bit" higher. The first scar was right above my pubic bone and healed wonderfully. The last one? Is a FULL inch above it and my muscles were turned to mush. I can't even do a crunch without pain 3 years later.

"When you take charge of your life, there is no longer need to ask permission of other people or society at large. When you ask permission, you give someone veto power over your life." ~Geoffrey F. Abert

Most celebrities schedule

Most celebrities schedule c-sections...and of course THEIR stomachs are right back to normal, toned and all. ugh. Neither of mine were c-sections, but I now have a little pouch that got worse with my second baby. My stomach with never be as flas as before, but at least I don't have stretch marks!

"Nobody will ever win the battle of the sexes. There's too much fraternizing with the enemy"

Actually the reason I raised this question is

It's not just celebrities planning these anymore, it's "normal" women too, and yes dear readers, I am one of them. I have several reasons. The need to plan and control things that is a major part of my personality, I typically need notice and time to mentally prepare for things as minor as FH having a friend over, LOL this is about as major as it gets in my world.

Another is fear of the whole experience, and I do not think I should be judged for wanting to have a child and NOT go through the pain of child birth. I think carrying my child for 9 months in my body gives me ample opportunity to EARN him or her, I don't think it makes me a bad person to not want to go through something that scares the hell out of me. I think causing me fear, anxiety and mental distress are valid reasons to opt for something that puts my mind at ease.

Another is fear for what it will do to my body. There are a lot of unsung "joys" of child birth, stretched tummies being only one cosmetic thing. Many women don't talk about it until you've already joined the club, but there are further issues that I'd rather not deal with ever, and if I have to, well into my senility.

I do recognize there are health issues to both scenarios, for both mother and baby. In these terms, I really do think it's a wash.

Also I am not at all adverse to spending an extra few days in the hospital afterward. I have never had a child before, so I would LOVE guidance and support and a nursing staff to be there when I flip out every half hour and think I damaged my baby. I know when I go home I will need support too, if I have a C section, and I do have that support from both my partner and family, but I think I wouldn't mind having a nurse help, at the outset.

My friend with whom I am having this debate is the "earth mother natural child birth homeopath extraordinare" I was there for her home birth, and let me tell you, this experience did NOTHING but confirm my feelings on this subject, though I will never tell her that. I was horrified by watching my friend go through what she went through. Especially because the damned midwives weren't answering their phones, and her husband and I were the only ones there, I feared for her life and her baby for HOURS while putting on a happy encouraging face to be there for my friend.

Finally, I've had elective surgery twice myself, once for a breast reduction and another for a cyst removal. I have had additional surgeries as well, and I do not fear these experiences, not even close to the way I fear the loss of control I saw happen with my friend.

Who knows? Our debate started b/c I read an article she sent out via mass email. I am open to changing my mind, but at this point, it feels like it would have to be a fundamental change of my personality to change my opinion of this FOR MYSELF, and I can't stress that point enough. I'm not arguing this for anyone else, just me, but my friend is so militant on this issue, it's starting to piss me off. I don't tell her she's got no business breastfeeding and cosleeping with her three year old, which is what, in fact, I think. Why? b/c you just don't tell your friends how to parent their children. On that same note, I don't think she should be telling me how to give birth to mine.

*setting aside soap box*

sorry, just wanted to explain myself and my random post!

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

I would suggest you watch a Baby Story when they show C's

Because if you like to be in control of a situation, (and I can tell you I do too) but never in my life did I feel less a part of a monumental moment then when lying there, flat on my back, both arms strapped down, with a blue drape extended straight from the top of my chest in front of my face, sectioning my head and upper chest from the rest of my body. I literally could only see this blue drape and bright lights, and here everyone else talking about what was going on. You lay there, highly uncomfortable, unable to feel your lower half of your body. And you shake. A lot. I hear that many women do, but maybe it's because you are also having side effects from surgery (I have very low BP to begin with so mine dropped down to near shock level.) I shook a lot. Felt like I would bounce right off the table. The first two times anyway.

Not to freak you out or anything. BUT....

I had two C-sections that went pretty well, but having surgery and being awake for it, and having a baby but feeling apart from it all together was not a dream birth. It was fast getting them all out true, but then lying there, nauseated as the Dr puts everything back together. Or worst experience, having my spinal block not be strong enough and realizing I was feeling my upper stomach muscles contracting and cramping from the shock of surgery. Incredible pain. They pulled BD 3 out, and then DH says he looked at me and my face was completely grimaced/contorted and tears running down my face. He asked what was wrong and all I could say was, "IT HURTS ME." The Dr freaked, kicked out the anesthesiologist, and called in someone else who promptly knocked me out for the rest of the procedure.

I have very little memory of BD 3 being born because of all that. The boys were better. Well, except for my epidural being way strong the first time and it taking several hours to feel my legs again- very disconcerting experience. And with BS 11's birth, my epidural actually caused me a probable spinal leak (they never found it but I had "mild" stroke like symptoms for about 6 mos.)

NS...read up on all this please. If you truly want to have the most control...I would really try to go the normal route and go to C-section only if necessary.

Statistically there are other things likely to occur with C-section babies like breathing issues as they've found that the pushing down the birth canal forces much of the fluid out of their lungs. My kids never had those issues luckily, but I also nursed them all and I think that helps a lot with allergies/asthma.

Hope all THAT wasn't TMI!

no no, I appreciate you taking the time to share!

I have watched the baby stories, and seen exactly what happened during the c-section. I also saw my friend give birth, blood all over everywhere in her bedroom, TEARING, being sewn up afterwards, no matter how much she remembers it fondly, I do not. I remember seeing the "person" she was succumb to the biology of what she was, and that was really scary to me.

Here's my own TMI, I used to be an addict, and I know first hand how awful it is to have your body be going through something that is completely beyond your control, there's nothing you can do, nothing you can say to make it stop, and it's just awful for me to imagine, and a source of a lot of anxiety for me. I think it does count for something, carrying this kind of baggage into an experience like this...

Thank you for not being judgmental, I know it's an unpopular position to take, so I appreciate being able to have an open dialog about it!!!!

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

I guess deep down I always feel that...

Any birth that concludes with healthy mom and baby is the right one. We elected for a health reason that I can't share. So we could have tried vaginal birth, or even V-bac the second time, but the third time (that my health conditions and changed and a vaginal birth would have been BETTER/less risky compared to the original reason I had Cs the first two times) but the third time you have no choice (after 2 c's it's not considered safe to try vaginal birth.- increases the risks of uterine prolapse- THAT's a potential C-section outcome you may want to research too. It's SCARY lookin!)

Anyway...

I have let go of the fact that I will never push a baby out. My kids were pulled out kickin' and screamin' but they are here, they were healthy and I survived.

All that matters in the end NS.

I think perhaps you were traumatized by what you saw happen down there? I know that many Dr's say that some men shouldn't watch what happens to our bodies as it's traumatic, but I never thought about it being so for a woman. Because when I've watched a vaginal birth on film it's never been that scary. But in real life? Who knows? I've never had the privilege.

You know my SIL (who does everything so right it's disgusting )had two midwives her first birth and delivered her at home in her own bed, three weeks after I had BD. She had about 4 hours of labor and pushed twice. TWICE. She had no tearing b/c the midwives she used continually bathed her nether regions in warm oils. After the birth she and baby stayed in bed, in their house, for days. It was so "Lifetime Movie!" I couldn't believe it (oh and neither could the the midwives, btw, who told her not to mislead all her first time mom friends in the future, OR to expect it again the next time herself, because even they said it was a glorious and rare experience.)

I was so jealous. So sad. So happy for her, don't get me wrong, but...So very sad. I never could have even dreamed of trying that with all my health problems, but it sounded like a fairy tale to me.

Have you ever read the Vagina Monologues?

I want to send you one to read that might be interesting for you given you were present at a birth.

I did read something you wrote yourself about witnessing your friend's delivery that I found profound and may be helpful for you...
"...no matter how much she remembers it fondly, I do not."

There are some amazing hormones at work to make us have delivery amnesia you know.

Oh- and maybe I would talk to a counselor about your fears?

I just think you can't anticipate how painful a C-section is as well as how damaging it can be to your stomach muscles and nerves. I know one woman who stayed numb on one part of her incision. I hated that feeling, and now have it myself. My nerves and muscles are shot. I have the dreaded "shelf" complete with dewlap hanging over it. It disgusts me to this day to look at my stomach. And I have to tell you that the pain post delivery...is astronomical. I know that the stitches are painful too if you have vaginal birth, my friends have all shared.

BUT...

I remember when my post surgical synthetic morphine wore off. Exactly when. Because before that I only sorta felt like my insides were going to fall out when I stood up. But after the drugs wore off? I could literally not engage my stomach muscles to sit up and stand. Going to the bathroom was intolerable (and they make you poop before you can go home to make sure everything's in working order.)

God...there's so much more to tell about this topic, isn't there?

S

Well, I don't have personal experiences

but I would definitely give birth naturally. UNLESS, the Dr. believes that it will cause harm to myself or the baby... then I would do C-section.

as a current preggo...

i should NOT have read this post. lol! im already terrified enough of giving birth, BOTH ways. i will say that i am going to try for vaginal, w pain meds and only have a C if necessary. BUT i am terrified of what will happen downstairs after a vaginal birth...will i ever be the same? will sex still feel good? etc etc etc. im just going to try to prepare my body w exercise and hope for the best really. the idea of being awake while they cut thru layers and sew me back up does not appeal to me, but neither does pushing a kid thru such a tiny opening. either way its scary. i dont look down on anyone who chooses either way...for me, its the lesser of the 2 evils i guess. i really dont think i could handle being awake for a C.

just hoping for the best!

"Given the right reasons and the right two people, marriage is a wonderful way of experiencing your life."
~the late great George Carlin

"....I'm just going to try

"....I'm just going to try to prepare my body w exercise and hope for the best really."

That will do wonders for you Bella. I'm sure you will do well. And don't freak about a C-section either. I have a whimpy body (high pain tolerance, but whimpy immune system.) I just don't do pregnancy well.

And if a C-section has to be done, don't resist it too long. I have had a few friends who were in labor for over 24 hours, THEN had to recover from surgery when they were already exhausted.

If you reach the point where the Dr wants to make that call, you will probably be less afraid of habing surgery, and more concerned with getting the baby out!

oh also,

i am NOT watching ANY birthing videos. i know the gist of what happens and thats enough. i wont be seeing it from that angle and dont need to.

"Given the right reasons and the right two people, marriage is a wonderful way of experiencing your life."
~the late great George Carlin

Argh, sorry bella!

I woke up during my cyst removal, sat up on the operating table, and demanded to see it, LOL, it was actually pretty amazing, and it didn't give me the heebies at all. Now I understand the difference between my wrist being flayed open and my abdomen, but still, I'm okay with it. The pain and healing of the surgery are of course something to consider, especially with having a new born, but I can't imagine I would feel like running a marathon after a long stressful and scary labor....

But Bella, seriously, this is me and MY issue, my friend went into it guns blazing, and really, everything was fine, tearing aside, she was fine, her baby was fine, and probably most of what happened was normal, it's just I wasn't really prepared not to have the soothing presence of an expert there, and instead having to convey that energy with NO back up knowledge, I mean, at one point (and sorry, TMI) my friend was squatting on the toilet pushing, saying she didn't know what was going on down there, and I thought I might be fishing my niece out! Scary stuff! Did I mention she wouldn't stop walking around, and was naked the entire time? AND it was about 90 degrees in late July in an unairconditioned house? Sure all this freaked me out, and hence my need for structure, control, predictability for my own situation!

But my friend was totally capable, she had delivered a baby out in ALASKA, when the midwife was snowed in and couldn't get to them in time, she delivered her friend's baby with no experience whatsoever, and all was well then too.

Love ya girl, I didn't mean to freak your out, just talking in circles....

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

lol! no worries girl!

its funny tho, i broke down a couple wks ago to DH about how scared i am to give birth and will my body ever recover and it turned into what if i dont know how to make the baby stop crying, etc etc etc...early pregnancy hormones are OUT of control! so u didnt freak me out more than i already am!

im sorry ur friend's experience traumatized u....thats a tough position to be in but u know and i know that her experience is not indicative of how urs will be. i would just talk to ur dr and y'all can decide whats best for u and baby. and if u choose to go C, so be it, but remember that having kids means giving up a LOT of that structure, control and predicatbility u so crave!

btw, are u trying to tell us something w this post????

"Given the right reasons and the right two people, marriage is a wonderful way of experiencing your life."
~the late great George Carlin

no no, def. not!

Prime example of my need for planning and getting used to to the ideas of things waaaay in advance!!! You're gonna do great girl, with the baby and the entire thing, don't let my whining get to you in the least!

Thing is, my friend thinks her experience was just FABULOUS. I'm the only one traumatized by it, LOL. Prolly my job as photographer didn't help either.

And point well taken about the need to be flexible, HOWEVER remember children thrive on structure and predictability!!! And if they want on a whim excitement, they can spend the afternoon with dad!

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Albert Einstein

A observation based comparison C-section VS vaginal.

My S-I-L (brothers wife) had all three of theirs vaginally. (I left before the pushing started so there was nothing weird going on). The three of us lived together during college so I was there for the whole pregnancy for their first child. She is definately Uncle Rag's baby girl since I was the live in baby sitter, diaper changer and lullaby singer when my bro and S-I-L needed a break or sleep until she was ~9mos old.

S-I-L was up and working out the next day and back in a bikini in about three weeks. She is now 40 and has the six pack stomach and runs marathons. She gained 13-lbs with #1, 12-lbs with #2, and 12-lbs with #3. My wife thinks she is a bitch! (Actually they are very good friends but my wife was toxemic with my SKid and gained 50-lbs the last three weeks of pregnancy).

A woman I dated for several years had three by C-section though not elective. She was not heavy but there was a definite difference in muscle tone and strength between S-I-L and the former Rag's girl. We used to all go hiking and rock climbing frequently.

Just from observation on these two limited data points I would go with vaginal if at all possible. Of course there are a ton of variables that I am sure apply. This is just a SWAG on my part.

Of course I have never peed a grapefruit through Mr. Happy so I have absolutely no perspective to go on as far as the pain involved in vaginal birth. I did have my appendix removed a couple of years ago by lathroscopic (sp?) surgery (three ~1inch incisions) which is the closest I have every come to a C-section. The recovery was not fun but it was also not too bad.

Elective C-section logically does not make sense to me.

Just some inane ramblings and an opinion from a man overstepping his bounds.

Best regards,

Speaking from a medical professional's point of view

I've never had children, although I do have the little pouch and would love to get rid of it. Anyway, I am a nurse and I will speak from that perspective.

Anytime a surgeon cuts into you there are always risks associated with the procedure. Recovery time is usually longer, there's the risk of infection, risk of developing blood clots which can also delay recovery. There is also the risk of getting constipated from the pain pills which if not relieved can create a whole new set of problems. Everyone is different, of course, and responds differently to surgical procedures, just as every woman has a different experience with vaginal births. What your friend experienced is not necessarily what you will experience. Some women have intense uterine contractions and some women have only back discomfort. Some women deliver quickly and some may take much longer.

You do have every right to choose, but my advice from a medical perspective is if you can avoid having major surgery, that would be preferable. There are times when a C-section is medically necessary, but you shouldn't let the prospect of pain paralyze you into making this choice. Even though you've had surgery before, there is always the chance that this particular surgical procedure and post-op recovery phase can be much different. I would also recommend that you speak to your doctor or one of the nurse in his / her office and see what your other options are. I've never had one but I've taken care of lots of people with epidurals and they are wonderful pain control modalities.

Well said Sasha

And I would add too after just watching that show "the Doctors" where the panel sits around answer questions, myths, etc that the longer you are in the hospital with the baby, the more you risk other things. The show had a woman on who went in for elective stomach surgery (plastic maybe?) and ended up with Necrotizing Fasciitis (flesh eating strep.) She nearly lost her life and they showed pics what it did to her stomach. (Don't watch or look at any of those pics on the internet Bella!)She was very lucky as that bacteria can travel through your bloodstream and cause amputation of your extremities or take your life.

So...I agree. Elective surgery is risky every time.

I won't go into detail, but

Years ago there was a patient on the floor I worked who had necrotizing fasciitis that developed in her abdominal folds. Believe me, that is an odor you will NEVER forget. She died. She wasn't very old, mid 50's I believe. It doesn't happen that often but when it does it is such a tragedy.

Good point MS

Actually my second C-section was scheduled for a Tue am. And Sunday night/Monday am about 3 or 4am I went into labor.

So BS 11 decided when and where and with whom he would chose to enter the world anyway!

You are here

OT Question I'm currently debating with a good friend