I know a Zebra can't change its stripes, but...
I know a Zebra can't change its stripes, but can they at least be domesticated like a Wolf who's been trained not to bite the hand that feeds it?
I'm not asking for myself. If you've read any of my posts, you know that I am happily disengaged from SD(23) and wouldn't have it any other way even if she came begging to have a relationship with me at this point. I kind of look at that like suddenly being magically gifted the physical ability to climb Mount Everest. Why would I want to? It sounds miserable! I am asking with DH in mind.
This girl treats her father awful. She dog cussed him on her wedding day, told him to STFU just before he walked her down the aisle, ignores his calls, cusses him out for calling when she does answer, and still expects him to shell out the big bucks whenever she tells him to. Some of you may remember her telling him to "just keep putting money in my account every week, and never speak to me again!" (DH has heard that a few times.)
SD has quit her fulltime job and taken a few more shifts waiting tables at night so that she can go back to college. DH had told her that he would give her $200 per month as long as she was doing well in her classes (even though she's married and has a memorial scholarship that her grandmother talked an ex boyfriend into paying for before she died. I call it the "whore scholarship".).
Well, she called DH last night, and she started the conversation by hinting around that she could use some money. DH reminded her that he would give her $200 at the end of this month if she was doing well in class, and she told him that she was probably just going to fail it again anyway because it was already looking grim. (This a remedial math class that she's taken 3 times already. The whore scholarship won't pay for it again, so she had to come up with the cash out of her own pocket.)
Then, she got right to the point...she needs $800 to pay her part of the house payment because she spent it on books and classes. DH told her that the house payment would be up to her and her hubby to cover since he had offered to give them 2 acres of land where they could move a mobile home and live for nearly free. That;s when the SHTF! She cussed him for everything he was worth. I could hear her screaming over the phone from the bedroom. When I came out of the bedroom, DH was fumbling for the volume on his phone. They got into a heated argument, and DH told her that he wouldn't be giving her any money at all, not even the $200 per month he had originally promised, and then HE hung up on her! (That's a real turn around!)
She called back a few times and DH let it go to voicemail. He still hasn't spoken to her today. He says that he's done, but there are tears in his eyes and you can hear the emotion in his voice when he tries to talk about it. With me being SO disengaged, I can't really give him any advice, and I can't listen to him go on and on about it for long without wanting to put in my two cents worth. The only thing that I've really said is, "Maybe, if you stick to your guns and don't give her any money, she'll learn to appreciate the things that you do for her when you decide to do them again."
My heart is just breaking for DH. I hate to see him hurting like this. He's coming to the realization that she only wants him when she needs money, and it's crushing him. So, I'm asking those of you who have older SKids, is there a chance that this feral animal can be domesticated to the point that she can at least be civil to her father? He keeps hoping that she'll grow up, but I don't know that age and hard times will cause a big enough change in this beast!
I'm sorry for your DH. I hope
I'm sorry for your DH. I hope he knows though that he did the right thing. Being used as an ATM can't feel good. And if that's all he is to her, then he needs to face that hard fact.
I think if he takes money out of their relationship altogether, he is actually doing her a favor. She will need to learn to live within her means. SHe will struggle, and she will not like it. But adults take care of their own business, and he is allowing her to be an adult by removing his financial support. If she doesn't want a relationship under that condition, then your DH hasn't really lost much of a relationship with her at all. Money is not love.
My DH has struggled with his kids now and then too. THey're mostly independent, successful adults but there have been hard times along the way. Even though I am mostly disengaged from them, I am NOT disengaged from him. If he needs to talk, I'm open to it. I never say anything negative about his kids, and I do offer my opinion if he's seeking it.
Thank you , Merry. You're
Thank you , Merry. You're right. Am ATM is exactly what he is to her. I wish that I could give advice and opinions to DH regarding SD, but I've found that it only undermines my disengagement and usually results in an argument between DH and myself. I don't want to add that stress on top of what he's already going through.
^^^THIS!!^^^
You're a smart lady. Giving advice or comments only undermines your disengagement. As you have found, DH can whine about SD but turn it on you if you agree with him, give any advice or comments. It's OK for him, not for you. With that in mind, maybe you will do everyone a favor (especially you) by letting DH deal with SD on his own. If he whines, just say something like, "Hmmm", and walk away.
When DH decided to work on the marriage instead of leaving SD was not too happy with his decision and started shunning him. But you know what? That is how he allowed her to treat me - only worse. He sat back and didn't do anything in my defense. Ya, I feel sorry for him sometimes but not enough to say anything to SD about it. It was his responsibility in the first place.
Thanks, sandye21. I
Thanks, sandye21. I appreciate you understanding. As upsetting as seeing him in this state of depression is for me, I can't say too much because it is quite likely to backfire on me. Don't think that I don't listen to him when he wants to talk about her. I have let him go on and on about her this time. Normally, I have to cut it off after about 15 minutes, but he talked for over an hour about it last night and again today. It is so hard to chew your tongue off to keep from saying all the truths that you would love to say, but instead, I nod a lot and shake my head at the appropriate times, and tell him that I love him because that is true.
She sounds like she has
She sounds like she has Borderline Personality Disorder as quickly as she flew into a rage. If that is the case, she can only grow and change if she wants to. It's not likely for things to get better. Hopefully she stops putting her hand out and starts appreciating what she has been given, but it's not likely. His relationship could improve with her over time, but he has to establish boundaries of what treatment he will not take from her and stick to it.
Her mother has said that she
Her mother has said that she needs counseling and medicine before. Of course, BM relies on a cocktail of meds to get her through most days, so DH isn't inclined to put much stock in what she says. It could be that she has some kind of mental/chemical imbalance that could be corrected with help.
In my experience with older
In my experience with older adult skids (30's & 40's), but were quite younger when I was introduced to them - Nope, they never changed their stripes and continue to treat my DH like he is the worst person on earth. Actually, they have become much more disrespectful the older they become.
I don't care how much they do not like me. Like you, I feel bad for my DH, as he spent a lifetime providing for them, and they only contact him when they want to play their exclusion games, or for money or gifts for the GSkids.
Even though you've disengaged, it doesn't mean you are not allowed to be supportive to your DH and listen to him when he tries to express his feelings about how nasty his spawn is to him.
So, my feral, adult step-zebras can continue to live with their hatred toward our marriage, far away from me and DH. We won't be going on safari to visit them anytime ever. Quite honestly, most feral animals I've met are far better behaved than the adult skids I have to deal with. Good luck with everything.
THIS ^^^^^ is exactly what I
THIS ^^^^^ is exactly what I suspect will come to pass. I guess I should continue to hope for a better outcome for DH, but I shouldn't be disappointed when it's more of the same.
No, she’s not going to change
No, she’s not going to change and guess what . . . DH knows it!
He knows exactly who and what SD is and that’s why he’s so sad and depressed. He’s raised an evil money hungry whore, not something to be proud of.
Be there for him and agree with him when he says she’s terrible. Be quiet when he says she’ll change.
I've known all along that DH
I've known all along that DH wasn't doing her any favors by caving in when she pitched a fit because she didn't get her way. She hasn't changed since I've known her for the past 11 years. If anything, she's gotten worse. In order to save my marriage, I had to just look the other way when he placated her with money and gifts. On the few occassions that I did speak up, it always turned into a fight between the two of us. Finally, I just quit saying anything at all. Now, he's seeing it for himself, and maybe he's seeing that he might have contributed to the horrible person she's become.
Let go of hope. Hoping they
Let go of hope. Hoping they'll change is what keeps us involved and engaged with these toxic skids. It's what kept me making allowances for my DH's narcissistic eldest daughter for 18 years.
Like your DH, my husband eventually had to face the reality of what OSD is, how little she thought of him, and how she used him. This never would have happened if I hadn't disengaged.
Because I love DH, it's been hard to watch him go through the pain of being estranged from his daughters and grandkids, but he's paying the price for a lot of poor choices over the years. He comes from dysfunction, and it continues down the generations.
You are wise to bite your tongue and not interfere with the lessons your DH is finally learning. By being quietly supportive, you are demonstrating what normal love is - patient, kind, and unselfish. You're being a safe harbor, and he will remember that.
I always thought that I would
I always thought that I would feel victorious when DH came to the realization that SD has been using him. It's not as much fun as I thought it would be. Like you said, he's paying the price for his own poor choices now. He is responsible for not correcting this behaviour when she was a child. Now, she's an adult and thinks that everyone should cater to her just because she's alive and breathing air.
Speaking of being alive and breathing air. She has threatened to kill herself a few times in the past so that she could guilt him into whatever she was hoping to gain. I recognize this as coming right out of the narcissistic play book and realize that she has absolutely no intention of following through, but what if she did? OMG! DH would never be able to live with himself.
Right?? There is no sense of
Right?? There is no sense of victory here either, just RELIEF, and sadness that it had to be this way.
Yes, this is a common ploy
Yes, this is a common ploy used by these manipulators - threaten suicide to get their way.
They usually succeed in getting what they want too, because the parent is scared they will actually one day follow though with their threat.
They think to themselves "how could I live with that guilt?"
The thing is though, that the parent needs to recognise that the suicide IS NOT THEIR FAULT. It's the choice made by the person committing the act. I just want to cut and past here a couple of paragraphs I read in an article which are absolutely spot on:
Express concern for the person, but maintain your boundaries. Threatening suicide is very manipulative, and the other person is expecting you to yield to his demands. By saying, “I can tell you are really upset right now, and I want to help, but I will not [fill in the blank],” you are showing that you care, but are also not giving in.
Put the responsibility for living or dying back in the hands of the person who is threatening you. Say to the other person, “I don’t want you to have a relationship with me just because I am afraid of you dying and you think you can’t live without me. Our relationship should be based on mutual love and respect, not threats. I love you, but I can’t stop you from making this choice, even though I wish I could.”
Ughhh the threatening suicide
Ughhh the threatening suicide card. smh
DH needs to respond to that threat in a very neutral tone with the message "I am sorry to hear that. Suicide is the cowards way out and a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Since I know you and know that this is just manipulation, I do not appreciate you threatening to kill yourself. Now, grow up and figure it out."
Then immediately call 911, report her suicide threat and let them truss her up in the pretty white jacket with the arms cross belted for a ride in the rubber pad panelled van for 72 hours of lockdown psych observation.
Lather, rinse, repeat each time she plays that card.
He needs to record each of her ranting phone calls so he can use them to take her crappy choices out of her own hands and get the authorities and professionals involved.
This kid is a write off. Too bad DH does not have the stones to recognize this. His lack of testicular fortitude is negatively impacting your. IMHO that cannot stand.
smh
Absolutely mind boggling.
IMHO the only way this toxic POS spawn will ever be a decent human is if your DH keeps a firm grasp of his balls and completely cuts her off. No money, no calls, no contact at all. He has to be completely disconnected from her to the point that she crawls begging and even then he only throws her the occasional bone of answering a call or responding to her at all. And then only with a clearly dispassionate demeanor.
What I don't understand in all of this is why he is even upset or sad about cutting this kid off. If I ever spoke to either of my parents that way I would have a fist the mouth instantly. As it should be.
There is a reason why nearly every faith in human history has a precept that stipulates that people honor their mother and their father. This is not a difficult concept to comprehend. At least not for anyone with even only two brain cells. IMHO their should be an equally critical commandment that stipulates that toxic people are written off and not tolerated.
So, it is time to sit DH down, tell him to turn off the water works and grow the man sack to write off this POS toxic failed family progeny. She should live what she earns each day. If she and her DH do not earn what it takes to pay their bills, they earn homelessness. If she does not earn her father each and every day by honoring him and treating him with respect... she has no father. Your DH needs to be the one to stand firmly on that message.
Af for honoring parents, parents have to earn that honor by being worthy of it. Your DH is worthy, his POS failed family progeny is not worthy of anything but disdain.
IMHO of course.