Toxic Mess
Toxic Mess
Here’s a little background info into the situation I am dealing with. It has been an eye opening experience for me to learn so me of the actions people are capable of and some of the crazy people out there. Before I get started, I will say...yes he is my one and I am staying with him. He makes me incredibly happy and we are so great together. And there is no way I am letting the sins of his psycho piece of trash ex get in the way of my happy ending.
When he went through his divorce, he found out that this piece of work never actually graduated from college. (They met in college and she failed out but kept up the charade with him and her parents that she actually graduated.) And he found out that the prestigious job she claimed to have, the company never actually heard of her and she never worked there. His parents have money and it seems like she was lying and scamming to get into the marriage and he was trusting, led a sheltered life and was from a small town so he fell for that crap but her own parents did too and we’re shocked when the custody investigator told them the truth about their precious girl. My fiancé also told me that they didn’t decide together to have a child, she lied about taking her birth control and trapped him into it.
Fast forward to her filing for divorce, she had scammed people out of some money in my fiancé’s hometown. As part of her “photography” business, she did children’s sports pictures and church pictures and took peoples’ picture money and never gave them their pictures. When people started realizing, she moved to another state where his parents had a vacation house and she lived there for a while while he kept his job in his hometown. Then she established residency and hit him with divorce papers. Now don’t ask me how she was able to establish residency and file before him, I don’t know how she pulled off any of her scams. I had a different upbringing and grew up being very good at reading people and obviously less trusting than some. Realistically, they had lived apart for part of their marriage due to him doing internships at different states and her starting her prestigious fake job. Knowing his parents, I’m sure they were against him filing for divorce and they were pressuring him to move there with her instead. At this point, all her dirty secrets hadn’t come out yet.
So fiancé was stuck with paying travel expenses EVERY MONTH for visitation, to the time of $600-$1000 depending on airfare. Stuck paying travel for all court hearings. Stuck paying absurd alimony and child support and court expenses like $11,000 for a custody investigator to uncover all of BM’s scams and disprove the lies and sick accusations she made against him during the divorce to try and get full custody (for full custody, she would get more money for child support). I don’t know what I find more appalling, the things she’s done or the fact that she’s never been JAILED. Apparently our wonderful court systems bow down to birth moms and give them the sympathy vote, and I’m completely disgusted with what the courts have given this woman. She even stole all the appliances out of his parents house and his own attorney told them not to press charges because it would look like they were being “too harsh” on her. And he ended up getting screwed in court anyway so they might as well have filed charges, maybe then she would have done jail time!
Fiancé’s parents are completely obsessed with grand-daughter and are the type of grandparents who LIVE for their grandchild. They think the world revolves around her and that everyone else should think that too. So when the courts gave him visitation for one weekend every month, he was stuck going even though the cost of visitation was more than the cost of increased child support for less visitation time. I do think that the visitations every month were a little ridiculous. Is it a lot of time with your child, no. But if you can’t afford it, then you don’t do it. I’ve heard of other people who have kids in a different state and they only see them a few times a year for holidays. Im sure it is hard on the kids but it’s about what you can afford to do. A while after doing the visitations, paying the alimony and child support, then dealing with the hardship of losing his job but being stuck paying the same alimony and child support (because the quality of life can never be reduced for child and BM, oh no! And it’s outrageous for BM to be responsible for supporting herself), fiancé went bankrupt about a year ago.
Things have improved since then and he is building his credit back up. BM actually agreed to a new agreement to reduce child support (very minimally and it’s still too much) but she gave up alimony if he pays the full child support amount. He was paying less for a while because obviously he could not afford the higher amount the court was holding him to when he lost his job and got a new job at a lower salary. Also, he has a lot less visitation now and less travel expenses.
His daughter is fairly well behaved, considering she spends the majority of time with the BM. Fiancé did tell me that she was learning after her mother and learning to be manipulative at a young age. She’s a little sassy and insanely spoiled. She isn’t disciplined because BM does not discipline her but she listens to fiancé fairly well when she is with him. I was more involved the first few months after I just met him and before I learned anything about this toxic situation (I’m sure he waited to tell me because he was worried I would be scared off). Then I also started seeing some of daughter’s behaviors that were annoying. Now she has liked me from the beginning and I know that however she turns out will mostly be because of her mother and that’s not her fault. I’m willing to be a positive female role model because BM is not a hard working strong female, she is an entitled moocher. One day, daughter will probably have a better understanding of what kind of person BM really is. When she does, she may need someone to turn to and I’m willing to be there for her. And Lord knows she needs an ethical person to teach her morals. However, I would like to take a less involved role as a stepmother and I have chosen to be disengaged to a point for my own sanity. But it’s becoming somewhat of an issue for me to disengage because I was involved for that short time in the beginning and now everyone expects that from me and they are making a huge deal out of me trying to disengage. I will make another separate post about disengaging. This post is mostly about the toxic BM and to give some background info. I’ve been reading step talk for a while, and I know that others that mothers out there are dealing with toxic BM’s as well!
Yes, we do plan on having
Yes, we do plan on having kids. They both withdrew their council attorneys so I think they are pretty much done going back to court for stupid shit (finally!). He says she’s happy with what she’s getting for child support, as well she should be. He’s basically paying all child expenses so she can use her own money for what she wants. And his daughter is getting older now and not as impressionable to BM’s antics. He’s got about 10 years left of child support. Luckily, by the time we would get married and have our own kids, he will only have about 7 years left.
So, BM sounds shady, and
So, BM sounds shady, and certainly good at manipulating and getting what she wants, BUT, I also hear that she voluntarily gave up alimony? Our BM would cut her ears off before she'd give up any money. And I don't hear that she makes his day to day life difficult - does she text repeatedly and tell him how to parent? Does she call SD and interfere with visitation? Does she try to turn SD against her father? All of that happened in our situation, in fact, my DH is pretty much alienated from his 19 yo son.
If she isn't doing any of the interfering stuff, then consider yourself very lucky. Just stop caring if she lies and manipulates and get on with life - sounds like you guys don't see SD much anyway. You'd be wise to get some perspective on the fact that BM is just doing what the law allows, whether you agree with it or not, so there is no point in wasting much energy hating her for it. In fact, she agreed to give up money, I'll say that again, because it's a miracle!
(As for the "trapping him" - he had a responsibility to protect himself too. I think BM in our situation got pregnant on purpose after lying about BC, too, but DH sure didn't turn her down or use a condom, so that's on him, too).
Yes she does do the interfering
Yes, she does do the day today interfering stuff. She’s done everything from having fiancé and his parents blocked through her post office so they can never send SD any holiday cards or packages. She interferes with all the teachers who are supposed to be including him on all the school information, telling them who knows what, so that they don’t want to share school information with him. He literally has to go to the principal with the court orders in order for the teacher to send him any information. Every time he gets to the point where the teacher has started including him, BM comes up with some BS excuse to switch the SD to a different school.
She brainwashes SD, which is becoming less of a problem as as SD gets older and is less impressionable. However, BM was brainwashing SD against wanting to do the visitations. And when fiancé went to visit her, she would work SD up into a hysterical mess anytime he had to do a custody exchange and pick her up. I witnessed for myself, BM and SD get off an airplane in the airport, we were waiting behind security to do the custody exchange. BM texted fiancé and said SD needed to use the bathroom, walked SD upstairs into a different section of the airport, and sat with her for 45 minutes coaching her to cry and working her up and whatever else, then brings SD back downstairs sobbing hysterically when she was smiling when she got off the plane. BM then proceeded to hold onto SD for another 20-30 mins while SD continued to sob hysterically and causing a scene at the airport. BM was basically making the exchange as hard as possible and encouraging SD to cry the whole time. The entire time, one of BM’s friends taped the whole thing with her phone. I’m sure they were waiting for her fiancé to get sick of the charade and try to grab SD to take her with us. She is such a frickin’ psycho! We finally got SD to come with us, and SD was sobbing about how she did not want to go out on our boat anymore, but would not say why. Boating is one of the main things he is able to do with her in the summer that she liked and would keep her entertained and BM was trying to take that away from him to make his time with SD more difficult.
BM now works for the same school where SD goes. She recently worked SD up before a custody exchange into such a hysterical mess before he picked her up, that SD threw up on BM’s desk. What kind of sick person intentionally makes their own kid cry, and get them so worked up that they literally get sick to their stomach?
Fiancé gets to skype once a week and call once a week and for a long time, BM would brainwash SD before any of his calls so that when he was talking to SD, she would say that she did not want to talk to him. She would say that she does not like coming to visit him. She would say all these things out of context as well. Obviously, BM put the thoughts into her head. SD has a fun time with fiancé every time she comes to visit. It’s usually just the first day or two that SD has to go through a “detox” period from BM’s brainwashing, then she is usually fine.
As far as messaging fiancé, I know they had a messaging program that censored messages from being too nasty. I remember he would get alerts that she had sent him a message while he’s on the phone with SD.BM could not even let him enjoy the time talking to his daughter without trying to ruin it by sending him a message. And all of her messages were demanding something, harassing him about something that he asked for and basically never giving into anything that he asked for. So sending him messages like that are meant to fill him with dread, while he is on the phone with SD.
Fiancé and I are very happy, and we make each other happy. She will always be miserable from her own doing, feeling sorry for herself, and going out of her way to be an evil person. She has a wretched and dark soul and she is completely consumed. I have no sympathy for her whatsoever.
Scratching the surface
My initial post about BM was just scratching the surface on her level of crazy LOL
Yep, she sounds like the
Yep, she sounds like the standard High Conflict BM.
The best you can do is not let her have too much space in your head, rent-free. Her behavior is about HER, not about you guys, and while I do know how hard it is to live with this crap, the only person you can control is you. If your SD ends up not being alienated entirely, that will be a miracle.
There is a great possibility
That SD will be a mini BM. She will see the games BM plays and she will start playing the same game with your SO. There a great possibility this child is lost for good. She will also like at BF as a ATM only. She Is brain washed by BM.
It would be very unfortunate
It would be very unfortunate if SD does turn out that way but I’m afraid that will be exactly what happens. I can’t imagine how disappointing that must be for fiancé but I’m hopeful that us having kids together will let him experience what a happy family should be like and give him the chance to have a loving relationship with our kids. He is the sweetest guy and he really is a fabulous father!
I hope that you are right.
I hope that you are right. But be wary. Remember that your FDH is at least 50% responsible for the failed parenting outcomes realized with his prior relationship offspring.
There are seemingly countless examples of the “yea but” perfect soul mate partner that is awesome except for being a crappy parent. SParents tend to initially put all of the crappy kid behavior blame on the SO’s X. Over time and a painful journey the truth comes out.
So, again..... be wary.
Take care of you.
Good luck.
What?! No.
What?! No.
Parents whose kids are totally alienated from them are not responsible for the parenting fail that those kids become.
Those parents allowed the
Those parents allow the alienation, most seem to take a don’t rock the boat position and before they know it it is too late and the damage is done.
So yes, they own a share of the situation.
I do not intend to blame. My intention is to keep reality in focus so that the opportunity for success is maximized.
I'm sorry, you have
I'm sorry, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. It's completely and utterly insulting to imply that people "allow" themselves to be alienated.
That's insulting to every parent who has lost their child despite their every effort. Total bullshit.
I suppose you go around telling women they want to be raped if they wear tight clothes.
Talk about blaming the victim.
What orifice of your body did
What orifice of your body did you pull the correlation between tolerance of parental alienation and any woman wanting to be raped out of? It obviously never ran anywhere near a functioning brain cell.
Don't interpret, just read. At no point did I imply, infer, think or in any way say that a rape victim is responsible for the crime perpetrated against them by a rapist/criminal.
However, as PAS is not a crime and solely a manipulative toxic effort by one parent against another , and against their shared children, there certainly is a level of tolerance if the adult target of PAS lets it progress Unconfronted. Sure there is always the exception of a PAS victim parent that confronts it consistently without success. But since that is the exception the more consistent rule is that this crap goes unconfronted and is tolerated at some level.
Parenting is not 50/50
Fiancé gets custody a fraction of the time that Biowitch has custody due to the distance. He does what he can during the time he has her but he cannot completely overrule the bad parenting she is exposed to during most of the time. He’s not a miracle worker.
Don't listen to Rags. He
Don't listen to Rags. He gives himself all the credit for raising his stepson, and his wife's ex none of it, though he apparently feels that parenting "fails" belong to everyone.
If he has the kid 20% of the time, he's not 50% responsible for how she turns out.
From age 2 until Age 18 the
From age 2 until Age 18 the SpermClan had 118 weeks of visitation they could have taken. They actually took less than 100 due to their refusal of visitation for a variety of reasons.
Out of ~680 days of SpermLand visitation time the SiermIdiot saw his eldest child some portion of about 146 days. He didn’t give a shit about the kid. Our son hungered for time with his dad (Bio) . At some level he still does.
So, over 16 years how much raising can anyone do when only making time for a kid for a few hours in intermittent visitation days?
However, your math is sound. I stand enlightened.
I do think that structure, boundaries and expectations of compliance to behavioral standards should occur no matter the visitation schedule.
PAS victim parents who choose to be Disney Parents own part of the outcome of their children’s raising.
I don’t think you understand
I don’t think you understand how actual and true “obsessive alienation” works until you live it and experience/witness it in all its glory. I also think it is unfair and and pretty gross to blame a father or mother for alienation when they are up against such challenges.
What you experienced Rags is COMPLETELY different- you guys were custodial, alienation efforts by a non custodial parent do NOT work the same and are easy to shut down... you cannot possibly compare the 2. Fully, utterly and completely different and I know because I have lived both sides.
For non custodial parents the courts are fully biased, the personality disordered parent has full access and range to the kids- the kids are pretty much only exposed to that parent, what they say is gold and there are no deviations. They hear it all ALL the time, they have to live it and are exposed to hatred of the other parent ALL the time and brainwashed. They essentially become that parent. The whole Disney dad vs non Disney dad has zero to do with it. My DH is an AMAZING father, and person.... guess what?! It still happened to him, it ALSO happened to his family, and her previous husband and kids as well. My DH was not a Disney dad, but either way this all would have had the same outcome. I can see WHY they behave as Disney dads too, because they are DESPERATELY trying to connect with their child who has others talking them down, degrading them and trying to train them to hate them.... they are not allowed to parent, end of story. They see their kid once a month (if lucky) they don’t have the privledge to connect on a deeper or day to day basis.
Also with court.... we had the best lawyer in the city, mom was represented by a garbage ambulance chaser, and yes we “won” some, but guess what?! If a custodial parent doesn’t listen or obey court orders all they get is a lecture. The court doesn’t want to punish someone who has these kids all the time to look after, and they don’t want to disrupt the kids life by removing them (because that would be even worse in their eyes, even if what the alienating parent is doing is wrong and it is recognized). All they get is a lecture and a hand slap time after time. Sure there are rare cases where after 5-10 years of intense battle an alienated parent wins with an extremely progressive and compassionate judge..... but those are the rare cases. Or if you have an alienater who is actually worried about following rules you might be extremely lucky.... but if they are an obsessed alienater you are screwed because you will have no way of fixing it. All you can hope for is that despite the circumstances they live in that they will somehow rise above and see what has happened.
I would not blame an NCP for
I would not blame an NCP for alienation unless that NCP is a source of it. I do think that there is some culpability on both sides of any child behavior equation even one where alienation is in play. Certainly one parent is usually far more culpable than the other but .... the parent in possession of the kid(s) owns the behaviors of the moment. IMHO.
Ill behaved children are the responsibility of their parents. So, I do think that even when one parent has the child far less than the other it is the parent in possession that is responsible for the child's behavior when that child is with them.
Yes it is complicated. There are nearly infinit variables in play. To keep it simple I focus on the behaviors. If a kid is perpetrating crappy behavior I hold the present parent accountable.
We have not had to live both sides. So you are absolutely right. I do not speak from experience when it comes to pathological fully commited PAS.
Our son would start what I refer to as pre-visitation behavioral degredation about 1-2 weeks prior to the start of SpermLand visitation. That was hell. He knew he was not going to be with us and that he would realize far fewer consequences for his behavioral choices than if visitation was a number of months away. When he would return we had 2-3 weeks of post visitation detox. That was also hell but since we had zero tolerance for crappy behavior we could more effectively deal with it though it did last longer than the pre-visitation crap.
As for alienation, logically it makes sense to me that it includes a significant amount of lying. So, seasoning the kids with the facts in an age appropriate manner would make sense to me. When the SpermClan was throwing their manipulative crap at SS we countered with the facts. Eventually he was researching those facts of his own volition and he became very adept at identifying the manipulative lies that would invariably happen during visitation.
It troubled him that they would lie to him at all. We could never explain to him why they chose to lie other than that maybe they were embarrassed by the facts. Which we made sure came out anyway. His opinion of them locked in the year after he aged out from under the CO. They ceased nearly all communication with him after his 18th birthday. Until he started earning a pay check. Then they tried to bring him back in the fold in an attempt to get him to help support his three younger also out of wedlock half sibs by two other baby mamas. At that point he pretty much wrote them off. People who would PAS a kid are not going to stop manipulating that kid even after there is no need to PAS that child against another parent.
I am sorry that you and your DH, and anyone else for that matter, has to deal with this.
I have always maintained that my blended family situation, on the relative scale of blended family situational toxicity, has been a walk in the park. To minimize my own emotional pain I focus on behaviors and confronting those with consequences.
Sometimes it works well, other times it takes a far more concerted effort and significant adjustments over a longer term.
Again, I am sorry that you or anyone else has to deal with this crap. Too bad retroactive abortion is not legal against a parent that would do this to a kid. That is the only solution that would work universally I think.
When it comes to a toxic X, we can't live with them and we can't shoot them. Dammit!!!
I wish we were provided more
I wish we were provided more of a chance to show the lies, and expose. DH has been honest with them (age appropriate) but her hold has always just been too strong. She is so focused on destroying DH (and others like even her own mom, siblings.... the list is long!) that no one stands a chance. She is so on top of them that they look at her as god.
They are actually good kids, just absolutely horrible to their dad and their other selected family members.
It is just really sad because they would benefit so much and are missing out on so much. The one thing we have in our favour is she does not discriminate against who she alienates.... so most likely at SOME point down the road she will most likely also give at least one of the kids the boot from the family and hopefully at that point they will realize what she is all about.
DH has literally done everything humanely possible.... she is just so dead set (severe personality disorder) that there is literally no way to curb this. He no longer even sees them because of how they were being tormented by her and the court not being willing to make an example out of her.
It is actually very embarrassing as well for the alienated parent because you get asked questions that are impossible to answer and you know people judge despite not knowing the extent of it all. DH is truly one of the kindest people around, he is still firm as a dad, and very loving and caring.... he is one of those people who were just born to be a parent. It just breaks my heart because I’m certain there are people who think he is a dead beat or a Disney dad but he is neither, just unfortunately reproduced with a black widow.
It is heart breaking to hear
It is heart breaking to hear that your DH has to suffer this crap. While I have more clarity on your blended family situation and on your DH as a good and caring father I do have s question.
How can your SKids actually be good kids when they are “absolutely horrible to their dad and other selected family members”?
While BM is the root cause, the behaviors they are perpetrating are their choice.
I truly hope that they will gain clarity, stop being BM’s toxic minions and start embracing their father.
Good luck and don’t forget to take care of you.
They are good kids to others,
They are good kids to others, and in general... but yes horrible to their father and a ton of their other family.. The one thing we have came to finally accept this past year was that they are partially accountable for their choices as well. It is a blurred line with true alienation though... because they wouldn’t make the choices they do not under the influence of the alienating parent, but they do also know right from wrong. Alienation should actually be a crime IMO- it isn’t much different from kidnapping.
Thanks for the clarification.
Thanks for the clarification. I agree that alienation should be a crime and also come with very high civil liabilities.