Toxic BM and Difficult Future SKs
I will be marrying my fiance next year and I find the behavior of his two children to be hostile. Their BM is a spiteful person. She showed no affection in the marriage to my fiance for over almost 2 decades, living separate lives, living on separate floors in the last five years of the marriage. Yet he hung in there until his children had grown to adulthood to leave (his daughter had graduated college and his son graduated high school). The children side with the toxic, manipulative mother who has vilifed the father for 'abandoning the family'. My fiance has not spoken ill of the mother nor explained the situation well, other than to say they didn't get along and he had to leave. He was a great father to them, always providing affection, emotional and financial support, Out of misguided loyalty for the 'victimized' mother, the children are cold towards me.
In the past five years, I have never met his son. The son only contacts his father to harass him, pull pranks, or engage in eyerolling behavior like 2 am bizarre rambling mesages while on mushrooms. The son is one year away from graduating - he extended his 4 years in college to 5 years, in part so he could host more parties at his frat. My fiance was warned by a few neighbors that his son was an spoiled brat when he was a kid. Sadly, I think he is a lost cause due to his arrogance and complete lack of emotional maturity.
His daughter is cold towards me, but at least I've met her twice. The first time I met her she scowled at me. She came to our house for short Christmas visits. During the past five years, my fiance has spent a lot of time with her. He always drives to see her - she lives an hour away. He gives her occasional gifts of money. He treats her to lunches and dinners on outings. Sometimes he takes her out to concerts, visits to museums and whatnot. They have always excluded me on these outings. They see each other every couple of weeks. I have not insisted on getting together with them because we are not married and I wanted to have time for her to adjust. However, we are getting married next year and excluding me will not be an option after that. Exclusion is bullying and I won't tolerate a mini-wife. I want them to still have some one-on-one time, but I expect for her to at least come and say hello at the very least before heading out. I was curious how much one-on-one time with daddy is reasonable for a daughter in her mid-twenties? Should it be a parameter that if it's not just a meal out somewhere just between the two of them or her birthday the activity would have to include the three of us? I find these daddy daughter 'dates' a bit much.
Which brings me to this holidays. The daughter will be visiting this Christmas. In a rare change of the usual pattern of him driving to her or an hour and a half to meet her at some fun destination of her choice, she is coming out to our area the day before Thanksgiving. She said she didn't want to stop by the house and say hi. She just wants him to have lunch with her and go shopping.
I told my fiance her behavior is very rude. He had a conversation with her about this and she is putting up resistance. I had a discussion whereby he needs to explain to her that things will be changing when we are married and that she can't ignore the SM. I am wondering if I should cancel the Christmas visit to send the message that if she does not want to visit me, she should not bother coming over at Christmas, ostensibly for presents and more cold behavior.
I'm not going to put up with this crapola after we've married. If she wants to be in her father's life, she has to respect that he's with me and I am his new family and at least go through the motions of saying hello and stopping by. If she can't respect me or our marriage, she should not be rewarded with gifts and dates with daddy. Is that reasonable?
- Stepmom2b23's blog
- Log in or register to post comments
Comments
"She just wants him to have
"She just wants him to have lunch with her and go shopping"
Translation - she "just" wants to bleed your SO for all she can get because it's Xmas. She'll choose the most expensive restaurant she can and will expect you SO to foot the bill for all her whims while they are shopping. Why else would a grown woman go shopping with her father? He's her handy ATM for the stuff she wants but can't afford.
Consider this when discussing your finances for after the wedding. You might not want to subsidize all her desires.
Thank you. I agree.
I do believe she enjoys fun, expensive outings with her father. I appreciate the advice. He shouldn't be treated like an ATM.
I'm curious how you know what
I'm curious how you know what kind of father he was.. or what kind of life they really had.. other than a version your BF told you? Also, were you, in fact, dating him while he was still married to his wife (as baseless of a marriage he may claim)?
If you were dating him prior to his divorce.. I have to say that your expectations of his kids somehow accepting you are probably unrealistically high. They will have a loyalty to their mother.. the one who was cheated on and wronged.. and left after decades of devoted marriage. (separate bedrooms doesn't necessarily mean they had no relationship).
I think your wanting to be included on their outings may be a bit much too.. I'm not saying you never would be invited.. but him having lunch with his adult child once a week or whatever.. isn't excluding you from his life any more than not inviting you when he goes to play golf with his buds.. or does some other activity with a friend or other family member.. as long as it isn't so often that you are missing his presence in the relationship.
It's totally possible for him to have a relationship with his adult kids.. and you.. and they not be totally combined.. and honestly.. if they are toxic? you will be fortunate if you can maintain that division.
Curiosity
I can tell you how I know by PM. I would rather not post it on the forum. But I know he's telling the truth.
Regarding their relationship, I see it as an abusive relationship on the BM's part towards my fiance - neglect, alienation and treating him like a paycheck. Unfortunately, my fiance handled the divorce poorly. Due to the acrimonious nature of their split, it took a few years to finalize the divorce. He was separated but not divorced when he was dating me. I don't expect the future SKs to accept me, but I do expect for them to be civil. I am half Asian, born in Asia, and raised in a society where you give respectful salutations and are polite to anyone who is an elder, no matter what your feelings are towards them. I don't expect the kids to have a friendly relationship with me, but they should at bare minimum be respectful. It's the glue that holds society together. Without basic civility, we are no better than animals.
Regarding one-on-one lunches out together or birthday outings, I have no problem. But expensive dinners, concerts, outings a couple times a month... isn't it a bit rich? If she wants the latter, I'm going to propose that she tag along.
Sounds like he's dating his
Sounds like he's dating his daughter ...
Out of idle curiosity, might I ask you what the 23 in your screen name represents? Is it your age?
Perhaps the year they will be
Perhaps the year they will be getting married?
Thanks. Yeah, she reminds me
Thanks. Yeah, she reminds me of a mini-wife going on dates. No, I'm 48. I just selected 23 randomly as a tag because the Stepmom2b username was taken. The thought of getting married in 23 did cross my mind as I was typing.
Unfortunately "respect for
Unfortunately "respect for one's elders" has gone by the wayside in this country. Now I'm not saying children should always have respect for their elders. In some cases, such as abuse, it's obviously not warranted. However, I will say that there is rampant spoiling, unaccountability, rudeness, and coddling here. Often, the "elders" worship the children and the children rule the roost. Our society wasn't always this child-centric and it's a shame we've come to this. Parents create and defend these monsters then wonder why schools can't find people to teach them (and even when they do, they quit in a couple years anyway). These rude children are now becoming rude adults and it shows.
It does show. I find it sad.
It does show. I find it sad. I was reading a study on the increasing narcissism epidemic. I think this type of behavior stems from a lack of emphasis on spiritual development when raising children. Children need to be shown how to foster healthy, heart-centered relationships within themselves, which then extends to others. People fill voids within themselves from their lack of wholeness with materialism and other things (addictions, etc.). Native Americans call this cultural sickness, 'wetiko' - a virus of selfishness and entitlement. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5783345/#:~:text=Narcissism....
Agree - keep finances separate
As for lunches, etc. I wouldn't care since I dislike my SK and don't really want to have a meal with them. DH can have that joy in his own.
I draw the line at SK's excluding SP's (or vice versa) from larger family gatherings. Example: if you're having a small thanksgiving at home, just you and SO, no need to include adult SK's. If you're inviting extended family - then you should invite them. If you don't want them there, don't host a large family Thanksgiving.
Thanks. Agreed.
Sorry to hear about the difficulty with your SK. I was excluded from Thanksgiving meals with my fiance's grandmother - the future SKs would only attend a meal with their BM. I would never host a meal at my home with those SKs - but after I'm married, I don't think I should be excluded from larger family gatherings involving my fiance.
IF BM was there, I hope your
IF BM was there, I hope your SO didn't go ... Would you want to go if BM was at a family gathering?
Oh no! He would never go. I
Oh no! He would never go. I would never go with to an outing with the BM. She was screaming obscenities at my fiance the last time she talked to him complaining about how long the last little amount of divorce settlement was taking to be disbursed (my fiance had nothing to do with it - the retirement account administrator had unexpected administrative delays). She's a piece of work.
You're being unreasonable. SD
You're being unreasonable. SD has no obligation to have a relationship with you. You have no right to dictate the kind of relationship your SO has with his daughter. You don't have to like it, but your options are to either accept it or end the relationship because you can't accept it.
SD isn't your problem here. Your SO is, though I wouldn't call it so much a problem as an incompatibility. What you want is for him to stick up for your relationship, up to and including disengaging from his daughter. He doesn't seemingly want to do that. He doesn't want to put your boundaries on his relationship, and you can't make him do it either. What you CAN do is set expectations for him in your relationship - no spending joint funds, no him being so broke you all can't go on dates, no him bailing on your mutual plans for non-emergencies with his kids, etc. If he doesn't meet those expectations, then you have a problem.
Remember, your relationship is with your SO. It's his responsibility to respect you. If you can't handle him having a separate relationship with his daughter (and maybe son) and he can't respect your relationship enough to not step on your boundaries, then this is not the relationship for you.
I hear you, but I have a differing view on finances
I don't want to have a relationship with a cold SK. I'd rather watch grout dry. However, it's my prerogative to ask for the outings to not be expensive outings if she wants one-on-one time with her father. How household money is spent is within my purview. If she wants to continue expensive outings, she should tag along. That should put the kibbosh on that. If they want to do lunch and whatnot, that's up to them - and I have no problem with that as I said in my earlier post.
I'll consider what you said about my SO. I believe he's willing to work with me on this based on what he said to his daughter just now about her unwillingness to even stop by this Thanksgiving and say hello unlike Christmas when she picks up her Christmas pressies.
Have you and your BF
Have you and your BF discussed finances and how they will be handled? Is there a great disparity in the relative financial means between you?
Just getting married doesn't automatically entitle people to have control over joint finances. Many people keep them separate and have autonomy over their spending. You see him treating his daughter.. does he also treat you well with his money.. or is he lavishing on her but expecting you to go dutch.
And.. you do need to tread carefully about upsetting the applecart with them.. in the grand scheme of things.. a few outings a month where he treats his daughter to something nicer than she might be able to afford on her own.. if he does similar or more for you.. I'm not sure it is fair to put conditions on his spending if he can afford it.. and upset his daughter when there is already tension between you.
"Sorry pumpkin.. I can't take you to lunch next week because SM2B said I can't be spending that much money on you"
It could lead to him hiding things trying to please everyone.. which will end up pleasing no one.
Since she is going places and doing things with him.. I wouldn't say that looks like she treats him like an ATM.. more that she enjoys doing things with him.. and enjoys that he can treat her to nicer things.. and he likely is happy he is able to do that.
He should be insisting on civility and pleasantness in the home.. and for family gatherings... people should not be excluded...but a couple of times a month.. doesn't seem overly excessive.
But.. if he truly can't afford what he is doing.. and you are going to be financially supporting the household equally.. he shouldn't be reaching into a joint account to pay for things that you are not participating in... and vice versa.
People have different
People have different groundrules in relationships. In ours, we have separate finances from what we had prior to getting together but are planning on continuing joint finances on everything we have coming in. My financial condition for marriage is that if money spent is from the joint account, I have a say in how our money is being spent. Most weekends when he goes out with his daughter, he also goes out with me on the other day. However, expensive outings do deplete resources from other things we could be spending money on (expanding business ventures, travel, etc.). Generally, we do not spend money on expensive outings. I am a frugal person, we contribute a lot to charity, I cook almost all the time, am an outdoorsy person which costs next to nothing. So I don't see the need for expensive outings with his daughter when he could just get together with her for lunch, a walk in the park, a visit to one of the dozens of free museums in the city or a reasonable cost outing. I have zero problems with lunch with his daughter. I do have problems with a $200 dinner at a fancy restaurant downtown. Based on his character, I doubt he would hide expenses from me, especially with a joint account.
I consider hitting him up for gifts of $1000 or $1500 here and there (for non-dire situations) is akin to treating him like an ATM. If he wants to deplete his savings, that's up to him, but he won't be touching my money without consulting me.
After talking more on the subject with others, I really don't want to host her in my home in the the future. She made it clear this Thanksgiving, she doesn't want to stop in and say hello, so why bother? I have no tolerance for hate. But for larger family gatherings like dinners with his mother, she will need to be civil. Agreed on that.
You need to have a full
You need to have a full discussion and disclosure on your expectations with him. Joint finances may sound "fine" until he realizes you are going to expect veto power over his spending on his daughter... I'm not saying that you are wrong for not wanting YOUR (that you earn) money spent on her. But, when you blend your finances.. he may still feel he has the right to spend what he wants especially if he is on the larger side of that joint contribution.. and if you don't intend for him to have that ability.. he needs to know now.. before you do get messily entwined financially and legally.
Brbibg Flags…
Your partner is the issue....not his dsughter.
Read around this site. You would be wise to consider this issue be addressed and dealt with BEFORE marrying this person.
You will have a very good possibility of completely lose yourself not dealing with this now. The information on this site is gold and all the same stuff recurring all the same.
Thanks. I agree that he did
Thanks. I agree that he did not handle the split with the BM nor handle the family dynamics afterwards well either. I plan on evaluating behavior very carefully prior to our wedding. I'll check out the forum for other perspectives on these types of scenarios.
A few questions
If you feel like sharing. Is there any overlap between his marriage and your relationship? This is important, not for the sake of judgement, but for the reason why the children are so hostile towards you.
But that aside, things will not just automatically change overnight once you are married. A marriage certificate doesnt change the family dynamics like waving a magic wand. They have created these patterns over a long period of time. Of course theres resistance. What they have is working for SD and your Fiance. You will be the Evil SP who "changed things".
I would definitely talk things out prior to marriage as regards finances and how things will be structured.
I agree with the others - your partner has his relationships with children and they are separate relationships from his with you.
Thats how it has to be to maintain the peace. Because forcing them to visit you when visiting papa, that will make things worse. Unless its a big event, where excluding you isnt an option.
These aren't kids, you aren't
These aren't kids, you aren't a stepmom. You are dad's wife, and that is OK!
They don't need or want another mom or mom figure. Forcing yourself on dinner dates is just going to either end them or make them awful for you.
I do agree that your FDH needs to start trying to help build a bridge to include you in events but if SD and SS don't want it, let it go. It isn't worth the long term stress you are going to feel over it all. It isn't worth the fights. It isn't worth your heartbreak. Just let him go and use those nights as your girls nights or movie night or whatever you enjoy.
The one thing that you do need to pay attention to is finances. If he is just meeting with her once a month or so for dinner, no biggie. Wouldn't even bat an eye. If she is getting $100's of dollars at these dinners because "Dadddyyyy... I want/need____" - that's another story.
HUN
Please read everyones advice closely.
RED FLAG ! IMHO she will never accept you. Daddio will continue on with these dates as often as SD wants. You will have no say, cause if you do, you will be told "you hate my daughter " "you are jealous" "thats my kid"
You will never have peace. Your life will lose tons of joy being with a man with entitled kids.
I would reconsider marriage, or at least put it on hold. After marriage the entitled kids amp it up. Trust me this isnt for the faint of heart, or for a person as tough as nails. This all depends on how your future DH handles it. Keep your eyes wide open kind lady.
His kids are adults. Adults
His kids are adults. Adults decide who they want relationships with. They don't have to have a relationship with you. It would be great if they were mature enough to see that their Dad is happy and support him in that, but that's pretty rare, at least here on Steptalk
All you can do is decide what you can and can't tolerate with your fiancé. If his spending is out of control with SD, that's an issue. If he cancels plans with you to cater to his kids, that's an issue. If his kids are rude to you and he does nothing, that's an issue.
Get it? Lots of us here have tried too hard, tried to be "the bigger person," gave up time and money and energy only to decide that no relationship at all with the skids was preferable. I wish it weren't that way, but that is reality.
Don’t make the mistake of things will change after the wedding
They need to actively change now and your fiance must be firm. Otherwise you will be the convenient scapegoat.
i have 2 kids with my husband now aged 5.5 & almost 7. Skids are sd 27, ss24.5, sd17. Even when our 2 were toddlers, my husband knew he needed to spend more time with our kids and my skids were at ages where they needed to be more independent.
sd's tried to pull the leta have separate outings but in the limited time my husband has, he isn't gonna be doing 2 separate outings for us and skids because they refused to be respectful, civil, polite and pleasant.
eventually he told skids that they made their choice and at most my husbsnd does 2 outings or visits to his family for weddings or his elderly father alone with them but i am overseas when this happens.
no way would i tolerate this crap from skids and my eldest sd back in mid 2019 pulled the whole daddy abandoned them to marry his caucasian whore and have 2 kids with her (spin off of biomums batshit crazy lies)
Expecting things to change
Expecting things to change simply because you're married is like expecting Skids to instantly make mature decisions and tell BM where to go because they've turned 18.
Before you get married you and SO need to discuss finances.
How are you setting up your finances? Completely separate, a joint account, a percentage of income?
How much is going to be saved for emergencies, travel, retirement, ect. How much is going to be invested. How much can you each spend without having to get your partners ok ($100 on a new dress? $5000 on a piece of art?)
How much is spent on the Skids, meals, presents, helping them buy a home/car. Can either of you cosign anything without your spouse approval? Can you spend the same on your family? Does it come out of joint money or personal savings?
Wills and living wills. Know exactly what each of you expects. A good friend was blindsided when her husband left everything to his children and they tried to kick her out of the house. It was in her name and they couldn't but she was very hurt. She thought she had a great relationship with her skids.
These are just a few of the things you should be discussing. Everyone feels different about money and we all think our way is best. Knowing how your partner deals with and feels about money will save a lot of heartache in the future.
As for him spending time with his kids, he's going to see them no matter how cold they are to you or him. Unless they are dangerous and abusive (and sometimes not even then) he will want to spend time with them. If you forbid it or make it difficult, he will lie to you about it.
So make it easy. Talk about it and let him see them whenever he wants, but make sure you are both on the same page when it comes to spending and that time committed to you comes first. If you don't want them in your home, discuss it now.
None of this is stone either. As your life moves on, the skids might warm up, money might be made or lost, be prepared to make changes.
Good luck to you, I hope you and your SO are able to work everything out.
Ummm No.. to excluding you on holidays. Period. Dot.
In fact, with her obvious evil manipulative bullshit... you need to grab FDH by the figurative short and curlies and let him know that you will never be excluded unless you choose to not attend. Only you can or should have that decisioning authority.
"I don't want to see your wife" is what this POS SD is doing and sadly, this is what your ball-less FDH is facilitating.
If SD and FDH did not have this established exclusionary bullshit model set, This relationship might have a reasonable chance of long term success. Since daddy has allowed his toxic failed family progeny to pull their shit, whether that be the abuse of FDH by his toxic male failed family breeding mistake, or his manipulative female failed family breeding failure, the odds of FDH growing a pair and fixing this are about zero.
Be wary of getting papers with this failed man, father, and currenlty failing partner.
Take care of you.
smh