Skids and behavior issues at exchange.
So, I know where its coming from, but SS4's behavior during exchanges is getting completely out of control. Unfortunately, we can't control the BM's behavior, and we have had no luck finding a therapist for SS on DH's time. (Close to 50/50, but parenting plan is "long distance" so mom has M-Th for school and dad has 3 weekends a month through Monday morning and most of summer) so I am once again asking about things DH and I might be able to do in order to help SS4 deal with some of his mother's emotional abuse.
We have previously had SS come over for extended visitation during summer break and within an hour of arrival be crying hysterically and screaming "My mommy's gone, my mommy's dead, you killed my mommy!" (Of course, this kind of thing NEVER happens on weekends, or even 10 days for spring break. It's only because the BM was noticeably extremely anxious that she wouldn't see SS for 4 weeks per the parenting plan, and I honestly believe this was her extremely misguided way of trying to explain it to SS. I know this because she anxiously bombarded DH with texts trying to change the schedule explaining that DH can't possibly understand the bond she has with her son and that SS needs her and will die of a broken heart without her.)
Other times he's randomly broken down screaming hysterically that he wants his mommy, and when asked why he was behaving that way he said "because mommy needs me, I can't see daddy, mommy needs me, I have to take care of mommy." Another time he started crying that he was a "bad boy" and when we asked why he was bad, he said it was because mommy cries all the time when he goes to daddy, and he's seeing daddy so he's making mommy cry and cry until he comes home.
I don't think that the BM is necessarily intentionally trying to turn SS against his father (although its possible) but she is almost certainly parentifying him and forcing more of a father/husband role upon him than an appropriate son role, due to her own severe emotional issues. I've seen her doing a lot of insane things, like her DAILY phone calls to SS where she will repeat "mommy loves you, mommy misses you, don't you love mommy? tell mommy how much you love her" for literally 45 MINUTES while SS refuses to talk and/or throws a tantrum because he hates phones. The only way to make her end the phone call is for SS to say "I love you, I miss you." Or the time that DH said "I love you" to me in front of SS and I smiled in response, but didn't say anything. And SS said "SM, you HAVE to say I love you back." And I tried to explain that I smiled instead and daddy knows I love him but SS insists "no, mommy says, you HAVE to say it back." Yah, that was a fun conversation...
So this has led to SS breaking down hysterically crying and screaming that he wants to stay with his mommy and that he hates his daddy at exchanges, which are done at a gas station (public location with cameras for safety) midway between the two homes. SS is almost 5, and very big and strong for his age. SS starts crying and the BM responds that he has to go and she will see him in a few days, and she hands the flailing child to DH. DH tries to put him into his car, but SS is screaming hitting and kicking while trying to throw himself on the floor, and DH is very carefully trying to force him into his carseat without injuring him, and the BM comes over and screams that he's twisting his arm and hurting him. (SS is twisting his own arm to get away) So DH sits him on the trunk of the car and tells him he's in timeout until he calms down. So of course BM pick him up off the truck of the car and screams at DH that he has no right putting him in timeout, and DH says, fine, you put him in the car. So the BM tries to put him in the car but she isn't strong enough and the child eventually wriggles away enough to fling himself on the floor which causes the BM now to nearly twist his arm all the way around.
On Friday this was literally a 30 minute ordeal with a crowd of onlookers, me, my brother who was visiting, DH, the BM, and the BM's mother. SS throws a tantrum because that's what he has been taught to do in order to demonstrate his love to the BM, and the BM will not leave and let DH deal with it and just stands there undermining him. And of course once she's gone SS is immediately perfectly fine, but she won't leave. She just stands there looking very distressed by SS's suffering and occasionally making critical remarks of DH's handling of the situation until he somehow succeeds in putting the child in the car.
I am well aware of the deeply jaded and critical viewpoint of many posters on steptalk, and I am not going to disengage or abandon poor DH to deal with this nonsense. I am sometimes at exchange because its an hour away from the house and we sometimes leave town for the weekend and pick SS up on the way. DH in my eyes is doing the best he can, and the BM is not necessarily evil, but she is just so emotionally messed up and narcissistic that talking to her is completely useless. Neither the courts nor any mental health resources are going to be of much help right now due to the current parenting plan and financial issues. At the same time SS is actually a really good kid, he's mostly obedient and gets extremely upset about being in trouble, or finding out that he's done something he's not supposed to do. He's also not stupid, and I think (or I just hope) that he's starting to realize there's something wrong with mommy, but he's only 4 and verbally delayed on top of it.
I am looking for ideas on what we can do to help SS. I need parenting advice on what to do when the other parent is making the child insane. We need some ideas on what we can do to make SS stop throwing tantrums at exchange when the BM is standing there and completely preventing us from enforcing immediate consequences for the behavior. I would also like to prevent mommy tantrums in general caused by SS's belief that mommy is suffering horribly whenever he is daddy's. SS could also benefit from some type of age appropriate explanation of why mommy doesn't need him and why good parents would never say things like that to their children, and that you don't need to tell people you love them unless you want to but I don't know how to phrase it in a manner that doesn't include "mommy is crazy and abusing you sweetheart."
I would like to know what we can try when SS is with us in order to mitigate some of the damage.
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Comments
This situation sucks big
This situation sucks big time!
Have you tried moving the exchange to somewhen inside, like a police station? SS will still throw his tantrum but DH can walk out with him while BM stays inside?
Or move it to a park. Then before you load up in the car you go for a walk? If BM still hangs around maybe you could drive to the other end of the block where DH and SS meet you?
While I completely disagree with what BM is doing, could you counter it with Daddy loves you just as much as a Mommy does and Daddy needs to see you and spend time with you too?
Not the Daddy cries when you're gone but the loving SS part?
Tell him over and over that he's not a bad boy. I think he needs to hear that.
I would also try limit those phone calls if you are able to. One 5 min call, Hi I love you and done.
This link might help too.
https://www.breakthroughparenting.com/PAS.htm
We already do your
We already do your suggestions almost to the letter. I will post a new blog about the phone call issues, I am worried about stuff being lost in this thread.
Oh mommy dearest is
Oh mommy dearest is definitely quite evil and knows EXACTLY what she's doing. It's called emotional enmeshment and PAS.
I would say move the exchange to a nearby police station and do the exchange standing in front of their doors. BM might be crazy but she also will be clever enough to not pull this stuff in front of the law.
Or like brilliant said, do it in front of store SS likes. Your DH can just grab SS into his arms and walk straight into the store right away. That way BM cannot keep up the theatrics of winding him and SS will get distracted by all the stuff. More importantly though it will get him away from BM.
Your DH should have talks with SS about how mommy is an adult who can take care of herself so he never needs to worry about that stuff.
Make no mistake, she knows what she's doing and doing it very much on purpose.
I don't know that I agree
I don't know that I agree with your statement that mommy is evil and purposely causing trouble.
This really breaks my heart for everyone involved. I know there are people who have no problems dropping kids off with in laws, or dad or a warm body.. but that is not me. I never spent the night away from BS7 until he was 7.3 years old.. and it was one night. DH and I were both a mess. Call it enmeshment or whatever, but I call it love.
With that being said though, I tried VERY hard to NOT let BS know that I was sad without him. I agree that some of the things BM is doing are over the top and are causing anxiety for SS, but not sure how you can fix that.
Is SS in school or day care? Does he have these fits when he goes there or only with dad? I feel so bad for your DH, SS and BM even and really have no ideas. I do like the idea above of making drop off a bit less "serious" by changing location to some place fun, like ice cream store, or park or McDonalds or something to maybe distract SS from his anxiety?
I can't say for sure if SS
I can't say for sure if SS has fits when the BM drops him off at school. When DH drops him off at school the BM is always waiting there. Once she actually picked SS up and carried him away while he was trying to hug daddy goodbye-- so SS started screaming that he wants his daddy. She responded to that by carrying him off to class while he screamed, then putting him down and shaking him while shouting "NO, mommy's here!" in a fit of rage. (DH witnessed this.) She then posted some extremely twisted fantasy version of the situation on facebook where the issue was caused by SS crying that he needs his mommy and his father refusing to leave.
I do know that SS has separation anxiety. I suspect it was caused by the fact that BM completely withheld visitation from DH for 8 months while telling SS that his father had abandoned him while DH was suing her for custody and the court case was pending. SS will occasionally break down crying when he can't find ME for example. I stayed by the pool once when we were on vacation when DH went put him to bed and he actually gave up and brought SS back down an hour later because he hadn't stopped crying about his SM being gone yet.
When DH brought him to daycare in the summer the BM used to come "visit" him at daycare almost every day for 2 hours (yes, she is THAT crazy, she lives nearly 2 hours away) and SS used to throw a fit in the morning that he didn't want to go to daycare because he didn't want to see mommy.
She's definitely doing this
She's definitely doing this on purpose. What he is saying is not 4 year old language. No 4 year old would say that he has to take care of mommy or would say mommy cries the whole time he's gone. No mentally stable mother would show such upset and tears in front of her toddler just to create more drama.
You have a bit of a cry when you're driving away. Then, when you pick him you're all smiles and asked how his visit went? What did he do, he must've had so much fun! Make it happy, light and 100% NOT about yourself.
The only thing I am 100%
The only thing I am 100% certain on is that mentally stable are the last words in the world that can ever be used to describe this mother. I suspect she's just talking to him the same way she'd talk to a husband, and saying that she "cries" is her attempting to use language a small child would understand to communicate that she's sad when he's not there.
But her intentions aside, the end result is the same regardless.
Isn't it just so sad to see a
Isn't it just so sad to see a mother emotionally damage her child like that?
Partings should always be positive. As in... I love you...have fun, see you later! *smile & wave* The whole teary eyed can't tear themselves away thing...is BS. No wonder the kid is freaked out... she's damaging him. She's creating a co-dependency. Sad.
PS - DH really needs to tell BM to FACK OFF once she's handed over the child.... or that part needs to be added to the order. She's the one creating the drama. Maybe when DH has the kid in hand, he should GO IN the gas station, into the bathroom or something... and wait for BM to leave.
I like this. Taking the kid
I like this. Taking the kid into the bathroom is one way to remove BM from the equation. Unless of course she just follows him in... I don't put it past her.
Sure, but if it gets too wild
Sure, but if it gets too wild the station attendant can always call the police - either way, there's likely security footage.... and at the very least, an independant witness you can "track down" who may be able to "testify" about the frequency of Bm's behavior
Contact needs to be limited
Contact needs to be limited with BM... She shouldn't be calling EVERY day on your DH's time... That's not fair to your DH and HIS time. Plus it causes noticeable emotional stress on SS...
My heart breaks for your ss... Emotional abuse hurts and leaves pain a LOT deeper than physical... They're bruises on the inside that can have long term affects, and it's harder to remove someone from it, because most of the time any "evidence" is seen as here say. I grew up with emotional abuse, and I still have moments where I feel EXTREMELEY insecure because my self-confidence took such a hit from it all... My parents didn't even realize what they were doing until I was in college and ended up in therapy, we worked through things. Hopefully BM doesn't realize it... Because otherwise it's just very cruel...
What BM is saying to your ss is alienation, if she's trying to blame it all on your DH and trying to push that it's hurting her, she's asking him to pick sides, something that the kids shouldn't be asked to do in the divorce, the CO should be followed and both sides should support that. I know our CO (though that thing is basically s*** out the window at this point...) says something about parents not being allowed to talk poorly about each other. If yours says something similar maybe DH could look into getting a formal warning letter sent or something? Just an idea.
I'm so sorry you're having to watch all this happen! I watch similar stuff from my skids and their narcissist BM... So I know how hard it can be to see that and how powerless you can feel.
Our CO does include a
Our CO does include a nondisparagement clause. It states "neither party shall speak in a derogatory manner about the other parent in the presence of the child or undermine the relationship of the child with the other parent. Both parents shall foster and nurture an attitude that assures the child of security and love."
I understand that her behavior has violated this clause left and right. However, non disparagement clauses are notoriously difficult to provide evidence for as far as contempt filings go since it usually comes down to a "he said she said but she denies it" or a "my 4 year old said that but she denies it." They are also open to interpretation, since contempt needs to prove not only that the parent violated the order, but that they INTENDED to violate the order, or that it was not done in good faith. Attorneys have told me that if there is any doubt about intent or lack of clarity in the wording usually nothing happens.
There is no money for attorneys fees right now, and we are afraid that BM may try to modify child support in response to a filing (she has threatened to) since DH's financial circumstances have changed since the order was written.
Have your DH download an app
Have your DH download an app onto his phone and start recording phone calls... May have to check the state laws to be sure you can use it in court... But he does have full rights to record what's coming through his phone, only question is if she needs to know or not...
I'm so sorry you're all being affected by this. I know it's a struggle. Our BM tries (and sadly sometimes succeeds) with SD4... And it's rough, and even rougher to have to sit there and watch it all.
I understand the shortage of money... DH and I are still trying to figure out how we're going to fund things right now... BM is dealing drugs now and we can't risk the girls getting caught up in all that and put in danger...
Just do what you can. Check the CO, and state laws, in most cases you don't have to let her have these long phone calls daily with your ss... You can limit them, his time is his time, not hers. In most states she doesn't have legal grounds to encroach upon it the whole time.
I will post a new blog about
I will post a new blog about the phone call issues, I am worried about stuff being lost in this thread.
I agree. Since the exchange
I agree. Since the exchange is such a dramatic and high-conflict deal, I’d change it to doing it at the police station.
My husband’ex used to tell skid “mommy needs you” all the time. It messed with her emotional big time. Nip this is the bud ASAP. That child is going to need therapy.
Any ideas on how to respond
Any ideas on how to respond to the kid's retellings of "mommy needs you"? Short of murder, I am not sure how one would go about nipping this in bud. The BM will not allow therapy and we only have SS on weekends and I haven't been able to locate anyone willing to see him on a weekend.
Fact and redirect: "Mommy is
Fact and redirect:
"Mommy is an adult who can take care of herself buddy. Let's color in one of your coloring books/watch a movie/ride your little bike/start tickling him/act silly/sing his favorite song, etc.
Don't feed into the emotion of it. Matter of fact then redirect.
BM here had the skids (5 and
BM here had the skids (5 and 6 at the time) that she was sitting home all weekend crying because they were away from her. It did not get better until she started dating someone.
She already is. She's dating
She already is. She's dating the guy she was cheating on DH with, so no hopes there.
Many of you have suggested
Many of you have suggested moving the exchange point. Unfortunately the BM is insane. The court order specifies that the exchange point will be at that gas station and she refuses to bend at all. She will not permit any switching of weekends, she will not permit any changes of the time listed on the court order for any reason, and she once actually called the police because DH was unable to get to the gas station because the car cracked a wheel and was unsafe to drive. (What made it even funnier was that DH had previously verbally agreed to return SS at 8am instead of 6pm, and he only told her he had to change the time back to 6pm, the time on the order if she couldn't come get SS from us because he needed time to get the car fixed.)
In order to move the exchange point away from that gas station DH will need to take her to court and explain to the judge why the gas station is not a good option and I can guarantee BM will retain an attorney and fight it tooth and nail for some fantasy reason produced by her delusional mind.
So no, I am afraid that moving the exchange point is not something that we are able to do.
Record her with your own
Record her with your own camera. Other posters have done this. Let her know that the camera is running and her theatrics are being recorded. Crazy doesn't like when their crazy can be documented. Keep it in the car with the doors locked. DH takes SS into his arms and then BM pulls away. Only when she's gone does DH start putting SS into the car.
EDIT: Actually, waiting for BM to leave gives her the power to delay. Put SS in the car while the cam is still recording, that way what she says will be recorded as well.
PLEASE consider watching Dr
PLEASE consider watching Dr Craig Childress 'youtube videos'...just type his name in the search area on youtube.
NEXT please strongly strongly consider findding a child psychologist. THIS is bigger than you and dh are. He needs to be assessed by someone who knows what they are doing. Not a fluffy social worker who will say HE is expressing himself. Sounds like ss is being doubled dog teamed by maybe BM and her mom?
The correct term cooookkkkiesss is Pathogenic Parenting.
OP your ss needs intervention QUICKLY.
yeah I know Christmas is next week and maybe you don't have time to watch the videos but you must make the time.
Check out Dr.Childress's website I am confident you can print out letters HE wrote to pass out to therapists (and lawyers too) ---bring it along with you when you find a Child Psychologist.
Your ss is very young and you have time to fix this the right away. Dr. Childress will consult for free with your lawyer and the therapist when they reach out to HIM.
Poor little boyyyyyyyyyy
Child protection comes first.
Thanks for the info
Thanks for the info
I am very familiar with PAS
I am very familiar with PAS pathogenic parenting, Dr. Craig Childress etc.
I also know that its difficult or impossible to prove in court. And we have been unable to find ANY therapist willing to see SS on a weekend, let alone finding a competent one.
I've done pretty extensive research on the topic and so far as I can tell, if a parent is PASing there is very little one can actually do to save the relationship with the child unless they are able to get full custody through the courts. The only solution ive been able to come up with where the PASing parent maintains frequent access is consciously deciding to abuse the child yourself and intentionally turning the child against the PASing parent FIRST, an idea which goes over very popularly with anyone I've mentioned it to of course.
The only book with any sort of useful instruction to combat PAS that I found was "Divorce Poison." Divorce poison also mentions that its almost impossible to successfully PAS a 4 year old, since small children tend to forget whatever the alienating parent has said as soon as they are not around them. PAS is much more successful on 10-15 year olds. Divorce poison did however mention that tantrums at exchanges that only occur one way in small children are usually caused by the "preferred parent" breeding emotional codependency with the child and the child believing that parent may be hurt, upset, or otherwise endangered by being left alone. (Precisely what BM's other behavior seems to indicate.)
Then record the crap out of
Then record the crap out of the exchanges.... record your SS saying these things... record record record and present it all as evidence.
SECRET....huge KUDOS
SECRET....huge KUDOS !!!!!!!!!!!
solidshadow of course YOU see the tantrums being viewed as a poor reflection on DH. That is what the pathogen does.
Now all the flying monkey and minions see it that way TOO. ie bad dad good mom.
Solidshadow,,,was ss and dh a normal daddy and little boy bond...UNTIL the separation of dh and bm?
I guess, but it gets
I guess, but it gets complicated. DH was never home, he was working about 16 hours a day, sometimes overnight in other states while BM was home with the baby. Not that he had no interaction, but it considerably less than SS had with BM. Other than that yes, the relationship was normal.
They split when SS was 2, almost 3. Then DH didn't see SS for nearly a year, BM wouldn't allow it and then when he filed for custody she did everything she could to delay proceedings. (Denying paternity, ducking a temporary custody hearing on a technicality, etc.)
After the year apart SS was afraid of DH at first, but went back to normal after a few visits. SS was still unable to speak at this point.
I would say that their relationship NOW is normal, SS is very affectionate with DH, its just the mommy tantrums, and he usually apologizes once BM is gone and he has calmed down. He has provided unclear little kid explanations for his behavior with his apology, such as "I was scared" and "I'm sick." (He had a cough that time)but has given no further details.
Just by the way - it's pretty
Just by the way - it's pretty normal, and common, for kids 2-6 years old to prefer one parent over the other at different times.
They'd always cry for the other parent during custody. Didn't matter which parent they were with, they'd cry for the other.
It's especially common for kids to use that as a manipulation tactic.... telling one parent they want the other when they're not getting their way. Divorced parents or not.
^This, SD4 when she's not
^This, SD4 when she's not getting her way and is expected to follow rules: "I want my other mom, like my actually mommy mom. That's where I live."
Okay kid. She ditched you... So idk why you think you live with her, but nope, now go put your plate in the sink like we told you too. LOL
She tries to use it to get out of stuff.
The fact that the child is
The fact that the child is rejecting a normal range parent NOW, meaning now that bio mom and bio dad are no longer a couple IS a huge red flag.
Inherent bonds between bio parent and bio child are NOT just tossed out the window when parents are separated and or divorced. Oh but that is what some circles want society to believe.
Mom (in this case) is all good and dad all bad. Child screams, throws tantrums, falls on ground, cries when it is time to go to dads house. OR, child rejects dad. MOM looks on, so does MOMs mom. When the young child becomes older WOW the playing field is worse and worse.
Dr. Childress talks about kids in Foster Care and how THEY, no matter what mommy or daddy have done the kids still want to see them. Those kids do not reject awful parents.
NOT with pathogenic parenting..??the kids reject normal parent.
Please take time to re-read, re-watch Dr. Childress youtube videos.
Many moms and dads are gone
Many moms and dads are gone from home. Some are in the military and can be deployed for months or a year while other parents work away for months at a time.
The bio parent bond is deep in the core of us...cant be erased, cant be justified away. Why do you think so many adult kids who were adopted NEED to find their bio parents. I hope the following link with give you more info.
https://drcraigchildressblog.com/page/32/
Since you can't move the pick
Since you can't move the pick up location, I'd try the bathroom trick.
Take SS immediately into the bathroom away from BM. DH can stay in there with SS till BM leaves. He can bring a book or a toy or his phone.
They can take bathroom selfies! If BM comes knocking asking if everything is ok, yep just the boys hanging out.
It's worth a try.