Update - never saw that coming
As a follow up to our breakup. I left XBF's mountain house last Monday and headed to my Airbnb. Once there, I reserved muscle (movers) to move my stuff out of his house in 2 weeks. I got a quote for a moving van. I disconnected from him on my Garmin cycling app. I deleted our group on Splitwise (how we shared bills). I canceled my Xfinity account at his house - he knew about that. I also changed my address on most of my banking accounts and other places that send me mail. I had a plan and was ready.
XBF is very averse to therapy. He tried a couple sessions in 2020 after we broke up; and declared himself a-okay. Yeah right. I have about 12 years (guessing) of therapy under my belt. 2 sessions were not enough.
After 2 days of no comms, he reached out and asked to talk. He says he's not been able to sleep and feels like he can't breathe at the thought of us being over. He has researched therapists and wants to seek individual and couple's counseling. Would I be open to that?
SIGH. Ugh.
Yes. I am open to that, but I'm telling you all, here - the cost for access to me has just been increased. Let's call it inflation!! LMAO We're going to have to renegotiate the terms of our relationship and it includes a potential deal breaker for him.
1. He must arrange, commit to and follow through with therapy. Not just 2 sessions. He has to stick with it until we agree things are better.
2. He must demonstrate changed behavior over a period of time - not just improvements for 2 weeks or 2 months - sustained growth.
3. I will NOT be moving back in with him. I will be living with my daughter in my airbnb for the foreseeable future.
4. We are not reconciled yet. Whether or not we reconcile will be determined in therapy.
5. I will go up to his house only for therapy (unless it's online) and to fulfill my commitments to a couple of groups (cycling and tourism) where I am secretary and on the board. I'll stay at his house, but in separate bedrooms until such time we agreed to reconcile.
6. I will NEVER move back into his house unless and until (this is a potential dealbreaker for him) we are engaged to be married and have set a date. Additionally, he will have to amend his will to allow me ONE YEAR in any house we call home, assuming only his name is on the deed, to live undisturbed until I can relocate. In other words, not allowing other people to raid the home after his death.
If he can't agree to #6, there is no point in pursuing therapy and we should part ways.
RE: Marriage. No, I'm not wild about the idea - I'm scared, naturally. However, I don't see any point in being in a relationship that's headed nowhere. I was open to a commitment without marriage, but that's too nebulous. His idea was a watered down version. I wanted everything a marriage is without the legal component. Now, I've changed my mind. Marriage is a known social construct and everyone knows what the terms are. I want promises made in front of witnesses and sealed by the law so that there is no vaguery. I think he will be against it, so that will shorten the time we spend in therapy if it's dealbreaker for him.
Comments
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If it was me... I think your SO is a narcissist. Further, I think you should quit allowing him to control the relationship. He always determines what is going on - break up, back together, blah blah....
I think that if you do move forth with this therapy, etc you should have some real hard lines on when to call it quits (for real) ... and don't let him change it around.
Time for you to quit being led around by this man that really just wants his dead wife and find someone that really makes you happy and cares for you as much as you do them.
For the record, I broke up
For the record, I broke up with him. "We" agreed, but I wanted it.
I was with a narcissist. He's not a narcissist. Trust me. I would KNOW.
As I've said before, I used to be like him in my first marriage (I had crap communication and conflict resolution skills). Additionally, I was controlling and manipulative with my first husband. I have apologized to my XH1 for this behavior after my covert narc XH2 used his narc toolkit of behaviors on me.
My XBF is NOT a narcissist. I have vetted him completely on that front with the help of a licensed therapist. He does not create conflict or drama to hurt me. He gets no pleasure from hurting me. He is not an attention seeking, fuel-seeking energy vampire.
He is a person with a crap set of conflict resolution skills who has never taken steps to learn a better way.
He doesn't control the relationship and he doesn't control me. He has always supported my independence and has never punished me for being independent.
That being said, I go back to what I wrote before. His communication and conflict resolution "skills" are not compatible with mine. If he's willing to learn a better way, I'll give him a chance because I love him dearly. Even if we decide we're not a good fit, it won't hurt him to listen to a professional's advice.
Thanks for being a good friend. I know you care. The main reason I know he's not a narc is because I would have diminished as a person during our years together - narcs live to destroy people. This couldn't be farther from the truth. I am the best version of myself that I've ever been. I have no loss of joy or happiness in myself or my life. I have not been isolated or punished for having other interests or spending time with friends and family. I have been supported, unquestionably.
Our main issues are precisely that his communication game is weak and he's never learned how to deal with conflict. He also battles depression. He's an avoidant with unresolved grief and guilt.
Once again, I know you're being a good friend. My boundaries are firm, as listed above. Thank you.
I wonder if your XBF has a
I wonder if your XBF has a dismissive/fearful attachment style. During my years and years of venting about my DH on here, the first question I'd get in comments was asking or suggesting that my DH was a narc or if he was on the sptecturm. He's neither. Like you, I totally vetted my DH over time, with the help of forensic psychologists that I have access to as a result of my career. In therapy, it came out that my DH checks every box for an avoidant disimissive attachment style. He was like how your XBF sounds, which is that he was not emotionally available to me, was conflict avoidant when it came to personal relationships, and had the crappiest communication skills. Even his wording was strange because he avoided communication so much that he didn't get enough practice at it, so he'd use words in incorrect contexts and make things worse as far as hurting me. My DH went to our own individual therapy and couples counselling and it's made a world of a difference. It is 100% possible to change an attachment style and it's 100% likely for a person to develop communications skills. The first step was that we both had to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. If your (x)? SO is willing to brace himself and do the work and you know you have your own back and want to try again, I will offer nothing but positive comments for you. It's your life and your relationship. It involves the relationship with yourself, which you seem to be putting first, which is great, so you have the strength to call the shots and do what YOU want. Forget comments from your friends, family and even here. What do YOU want and if it's to lay down the law like your 6 points (like I did with my DH), and go with that, then go for it.
Your (x)SO lost his late wife and now he's lost you, so he should probably get counselling for his losses in his life anyway.
I love your conditons. I think they're very reasonable. Also, I agree with you on the marriage thing. Nothing at all wrong with wanting the fulsome relational experience. If that's what your thing is, then good on you for putting it out there to him. You know what you want and you never have to justify why you want or need something.
Good luck whatever you choose!
I would say fearful avoidant,
I would say fearful avoidant, but possible dismissive or even a little disorganized - both anxious and avoidant. Not sure. We both read the book Attached but he didn't give much feedback after reading it.
He's a very intelligent man and capable of learning. But he's very averse to being controlled or coerced. Attempts to persuade are usually met with him digging his heels in. Stubborn.
His childhood was chaotic and marked with a lot of drama between his parents and siblings. He's #4 of 6 and he survived by flying under the radar while his other siblings would argue and scuffle with their father and each other. He is highly conflict avoidant after a tumultuous homelife. He also has obvious food anxiety after a childhood of food scarcity. His parents were working class in Scotland and he and his siblings were moved back and forth between the US and Scotland a few times. He was born there, but arrived in the US at 6 weeks old. They moved back to his mother's family twice: once in primary school and once in what we'd call middle school or junior high.
Like most men, he doesn't like to show any weakness or vulnerability. If I were to ask "Are you afraid [something] will happen." I get, "I'm not afraid of anything." I don't think he really even knows what he's feeling most of the time.
He's not a bad person and he's typically very patient and supportive. Where he struggles most is communication and if I come to him with something to talk about, he gets very defensive and feels attacked. That's why I'm willing to see a therapist with him. I would like a third party/translator/interpreter to referee so we can clear a few things up and figure out if we stand a chance at success.
He has shown me he will adapt things for my comfort, so I am cautiously optimistic that therapy can help us as long as he isn't too triggered by bringing up childhood traumas.
He also needs to quit leaving his dead wife's shoes
He also needs to quit leaving his dead wife's shoes by the door. And if you move back in, maybe some more mutual decorating needs to happen? Some men just need the shock of a woman actually leaving before they finally get it together. I hope it all works out, and I think no matter what happens, as long as you stick with your boundaries, you will end up in a better place.
The push and pull of this guy
The push and pull of this guy... avoidant attachment issues. (I'm reading the book right now) Hold your expectations, either he steps up to them or so long. It's nice your are giving him one more chance and it sounds like this is the last one??? I will say there was time DH thought he lost me and it was the kick in the butt he needed to change. He stuck with the therapy and here we are, still married. Good luck.
It's the last chance, for
It's the last chance, for sure. Would it be rude to say at the first counseling session, "Hi. Nice to meet you. This is the last chance I'm giving, btw."
Kinda rude, huh?
I'm going to establish that the time for "doubts" and hot/cold is over. Either sh*t or get off the pot. Stop wasting my time.
The book says that secure
The book says that secure people express their needs plainly and confidently. Puts the ball in their court and they either join you or not but then the games are over. You got this.
Not rude at all. I did that
Not rude at all. I did that with my DH. I told him to get his fucking signals straight. LOL I got mixed messages from him for years and got sick of it. I told him what my requirements were and that they are ongoing. I believe I used the exact words, "shit or get off the pot," at some point. Stating your needs isn't rude. It's being transparent with your partner so that they know what needs they need to meet.
Interesting thing happened in marital therapy, both our therapist and DH told me that with men, women need to be "quite blatant" with what we want from our men. We actually do need to spell it out. We need to paint a picture of what it looks like and give examples. I think that once I was told that, it was a gamechanger. It's "magical thinking" if we think that "if he loved me, he'd know to do..." It's just not true. We aren't being rude. We just need to spell it out. At least that's what my DH needed. When I figured out that I would spell things out to my DH without a second thought, it made the world of a difference. That one was tough for me because I had spent my entire life trying to not have needs, lest I'd become too high maintenance. So, yeah, it takes some unraveling of the dynamics between both parties.
I spelled it out
... told my now-EXH that I wanted to save to buy a house & for retirement. Gaslight for nine years until I finally saw through it & that all his bullsh*t $pending, rage, and manipulations were REAL & that he's a likely covert narcissist.
Divorce was finalized earlier this year, so FREE FROM ALL THAT! :D
Interesting update
I was cheering silently, and then "second chance" popped in there.
If that is what you want to do...that is what you should do. I had thought the breakup was too quick and "easy", and was wondering at that.
If hes really ready to do the work, then great for him, and it sounds like you are really protecting yourself, so I know you arent just going along.
I would add #7. No dead wife shoes around please.
I'm with Clove on adding #7.
I'm with Clove on adding #7. I would require being the woman of the house. That means that LW's belongings, including her shoes, will not be out in open areas. Your SO can keep them wherever keepsakes are kept, but he can no longer send the implied message to you that she is the woman of the house. Maybe he can unravel in therapy that just because he has a new lady of the house doesn't mean it erases LW's standing as his first wife. It does mean that you are his living partner and lady of the house.
There are a lot of
There are a lot of stipulations I have to expand on with him before I would actually consider marriage, but if he's dead set against marriage that's all I need to know so we can part ways.
His LW's ashes need to be distributed according to her wishes. It's been over 8 years since she passed and he still has a decent amount (my guess is 2/3) of her ashes left. She asked him to sprinkle them around the world as he travels. He hasn't traveled much since Covid, but she had already been gone 5 years before that happened. He's dragging his feet.
I don't want to live with him again until we're in a better place and engaged. And, before I would move back in and marry him, he'd have to agree to let me put my mark on the home instead of it being her/their decor. Personally, I would prefer to share a different home with him. She never lived in the house we shared, but he decorated it beautifully with the decor from the family home.
Please. Just be done.
Please. Just be done.
This isn't going to be happily ever after. Sure you might even stay together. It will not be a happy life. 100%. That's not how happy life starts.
sounds a lot like your second marriage. Leave. Come back. Live together. Live apart. Leave. Come back. Unstable. Not healthy
Why are you always doing all the work? why are you planning on driving to his house. If he's interested he'll drive to you for therapy and biking or what not. You are not married or engaged and he's not your family. It's unreasonable to waste hours of your life, gas, car life etc to go see a man. He is the reason this relationship isn't working. He needs to do the work. Not you. He wants to see you? He'll come over. Doesn't drive to see you? Not as interested in you as you are in him. He gers to stay in a comfy house while you packing duffel bag and driving endless miles to sleep in his guest room. Why? Screw that. Aren't we too old for this sh..t? Shouldn't we stop doing this nonsense in our 50s?
Why does he gets to call the shots, he's running the show. He'll choose if your rules are acceptable or are dealbreakers. Why is it always up to men?
Men who have dead wives shoes at the door shouldn't date. And women shouldn't date men who have dead wives shoes at the door. Just no.
Seriously just say no to these unavailable men. Not worth it. You can do better
I'm really worried about how
I'm really worried about how upset you are about my life. I am curious about what in my life is so triggering to you. I wrote here to sort out my thoughts. I have the situation fully in hand. I'm not over here anxious or freaking out. I'm not bawling my eyes out in my pillow.
I'm living my best life and spending time with my friends and family. It's wonderful!!
Take a breath. I'm not in danger. ((hugs))
Why. You like banging your head against the walls.
Dead wife clothes go to good will. No need for clothes that neve is going to be worn.
I can't imagine what else there is. Jewley..humbled Holiday stuff. Main thing is to move to a new home.. Not one the ex lived in. Not sitting on dead wife furniture, using her dishes,
with your name in the deed so SK doesn't throw you out if something happens. He will never go along with this . You have no future.
That's a new house he bought
That's a new house he bought for himself after she died. But he relocated her stuff to the new house. There is no future.
You're both probably right. I
You're both probably right. I don't have a lot of hope, honestly.
But, for my sake, I need to try this. If I see we're getting nowhere in counseling, I will have a third party on hand to help get the point across that it's not working and we have no future.
You really do not need a
You really do not need a third party to know that it's not working. It's too much work for a new relationship. It doesn't need to be that hard
What about this is for your sake?
If it is not working for you. It is not working. Period. Dot.
The sacrificial altar of blended family martyrdom is not a piece of furniture anyone should want.
Take care of you.
It is long past write off the unworthy partner point.
IMHO.
Sorry, I have to chuckle.
Sorry, I have to chuckle. While I might agree with you to a point, I believe you're emotionally invested in my story to a concerning degree that doesn't make sense to me.
Thank you for pronouncing the fate of my relationship. Do you have an predictions about my ultimate demise?
Keep in mind that people care and are concerned for you.
This is one of those "stop putting your tender bits in the light socket over and over again" thinking that eventually it will feel good things.
Your continued self flagilation on this is painful to read.
Take care of you.
Dead wive's shoes?
Um hate to say it but this man is UNdateable. My 2nd husband had lost his 2nd wife (I was his 3rd wife) to random violence. It was not a fun relationship as he always put her on a pedestal and I felt I was competing with a ghost. It's bad enough when the BM is living.
Fortunately he did not have any offspring by his 2nd wife.
My advice would be to find a man who hasn't had any kids (or a deceased spouse).
I put my foot down with the
I put my foot down with the LW stuff when I first moved in. He had put up pictures of them as a couple. He put them away when I voiced how inappropriate it was. He's been really good about that nonsense and 99% of the time she's a non issue. I didn't know about the shoes until a couple of months ago. I knew he had the ashes, but he didn't bring them to the new house, so I didn't care. And I knew about her bathrobe, but that's also at the old house - he's renovating it to sell or rent out.
The furniture is mostly new to the new house (second hand) and the bed we share was new to us, so I didn't have to deal with that. The rest of it is just decor and I actually like most of it, EXCEPT this one print that used to be over the bed in the old house. I am sure it was a favorite of hers and it clashes with the rest of the decor. Thankfully he put it in a room we don't spend much time in.
The late wife stuff hasn't been a huge problem, but it's time for the lingering stuff to be dealt with, especially her ashes. I can't tell him what to do, but I can refuse to live with him until he's taken care of it. I only control me.
Meh
Don't tolerate him any longer, in any way. You have made the break, stay gone.
His crying and angst is not your problem. It should never be your problem again.
Enjoy your new life adventure. Leave him in the figurative gutter that he has earned.
Many relationships only
Many relationships only survive because a woman keeps going to guy's house to sleep over. It will fizzle out if she stated in her house. Ask me how I know. Many men wouldn't bother packing bags and driving to see a woman let alone just drive to see her for a date with no promise of hanky panky.
If you want to know how much the guy wants you in his life, he'll drive to you, he'd suggest meeting half way (acceptable), make efforts. If he asks you to keep going to his house, you have your answer. He is a low effort man.
It's never a good idea to get together with a man who needs convincing to marry or engage or show more affection etc What you see is what you get. I also don't think a man seriously into a woman buy a house for himself in the midst of a relationship (knowing that she wants commitment). I knew this was over the minute he bought the house hours away.
First of all it meant there'll be no commitment and second of all he figured you'll be making efforts to see him spending hours on the road. Or you'd have to change your job if you wanted to live there-in his house with his wife's stuff. Not good. It had to end then. He'd not do that if you were his priority.
don't let your feelings and passion for a man (any man) cloud your logic, reasoning and sound judgement.
I bought a house with my son
I bought a house with my son in the middle of our relationship. What does that say about me? He knows I'm fiercly protective of my assets after my 2nd husband used me financially, so I don't have an issue with him buying a house.
But you bring up points that I also brought up at the time - the house was supposed to be a weekend getwaway for US, but he unilaterally decided to live there full time, putting us into a long distance relationship. I told him that it upset me that he did that without talking to me and that he also wasn't agreeing to share the travel load equally. He did make a compelling argument that Baltimore and his house here are not happy places for him, and he was deliriously happy in the mountains. His LW died in the house he owns here. Also, the mountain house is located in a place that is top notch for hiking, camping, cycling, etc.
Still, it hurt because he didn't take into account how the burden rested on me to make the trip when I have a job. We worked it out and I stumbled onto a remote job with my company and he was thrilled I could move in. This house is not filled with his LW's stuff. It's decorated with items from their home and he was living there alone when he decorated it. I like the decor. He did a nice job. I have brought decor to the house that he readily incorporates, but I still don't feel at home for reasons I've stated before.
When we both lived in the Baltimore area, we spent the night at each other's houses, but I mostly went to his because we had privacy there. My DS27 has lived with me for a few years, so we didn't have the privacy we wanted.
I appreciate your input, but I am a bit alarmed at the passion and intensity of your posts. I'm not the same person who posted here even 6 years ago. I'm not trauma bonded to a narcissist. I don't need impassioned lectures and edicts on how to save myself. I'm no longer a damsel in distress. LOL I have no doubts I can and will handle this situation to my advantage.
I'm clearheaded and resolute. I am happy hanging with my friends and family close to sea level.
I am sticking to my plans and boundaries and if I go to his mountain house, it's to fulfill my obligations to organizations where I am on the board or an officer.........and to gather more of my stuff to bring back.
I appreciate the concern and encouragement. Thank you.
OP - could it really be that
OP - could it really be that you don't want to move forward right now, either? I'm in a similar situation. There are some things that are currently, if not deal-breakers, deal-postponers. But - if i really dig deep, i'm totally happy with my situation now. I have my own house and i love it. To sell it, i would have to be certain it was the right thing to do. Maybe the right place for you to be is in your own home? With or without your SO.
I am tired and mostly
I am tired and mostly ambivalent about this relationship. But I'm MORE exhausted from moving my stuff hither and yon, and the expense of it. That is why I will reject advice that says "pay the money and move out of his house TODAY!" Um, no. That doesn't work for me.
I am comfortable in my own home. The only delay is finishing out all my airbnb bookings so I can settle in with my daughter next month. I hope to use it as an airbnb again in the future so I will reject any "advice" that urges me to cancel them all. It's not a good move and will sabotage my status as a SuperHost. I am staying at my other house in the small bedroom on a twin bed while my airbnb is booked. I will stay at my airbnb during the week until my bookings are completed on 10/22.
All I've said here is that if he arranges counseling, I will attend the first session to see what we're dealing with. I'm not moving back in with him.
I feel so good about where I am emotionally, mentally, etc, that I will wholesale reject anyone's theories about me be anything like I used to be. I've done the work. I'm in control.
And I am sarcastic. I am smart enough and have been here long enough to know when people care about me or when they are just annoyed or triggered by how I choose to navigate my life and relationships.
Closing this post to comments.