Ss gave dd a concussion
He is 15 yrs old and she just turned 4. We have been having issues with her biting. When she bites she goes to the time out chair and then she has to apologize. We do this every time and take away a toy as a consequence. So Monday I get a phone call from dh while I'm at the gym saying dd hit her head and threw up. I met him at the hospital and when the Dr asks what happened he tells her that she bit ds on the arm and he threw his hand/fist back and hit her in the head and she flew backwards and hit her head. She got up dazed, threw up and then passed out. She had to spend the night in the hospital and I am so livid. Ss went to his mom's house and I haven't seen him yet. I tried to talk to him and the little shit had the nerve to say maybe she learned her lesson and won't be biting people anymore. He put on Facebook that his little sister likes to bite people and that we allow it and she got her consequence. This is the same kid that stabbed his bully. I told dh I don't want him near our daughters anymore and if he comes into this house I am leaving. Dh and I have done nothing but fight over this.
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So you believe it's ok for a
So you believe it's ok for a 15 year old male to hit a 4 year old so hard he lands her in the hospital for a night????? I'm sorry but hitting someone so hard you give them a concussion is not an accident!
She has bitten me and her dad
She has bitten me and her dad and neither of us have bashed her face in and thrown her into the floor giving her a concussion. We are working on her currency and stopping the biting. What he did was abusive. This is the same kid who stabbed his bully. He feels this is okay and it's not. It's really scary if you think about it.
What do you call throwing
What do you call throwing your hand back and hitting someone in the face causing them to fall back and hit their head? He bashed her in the face.
I get she bit him but to have
I get she bit him but to have a mark on het face and a concussion? His response was one of anger and retribution not shock and surprise.
I would call it that he
I would call it that he accidentally knocked her down when he had an involuntary reaction to being startled and bitten.
Bashing her face in is stopping, turning around and punching her.
She fell backwards and hit her head. I'm guessing it was on a hard surface.
He is back justifying it because he is being blamed for something that was an accident.
This is disturbing, she is a
This is disturbing, she is a damn baby I get that could have hurt but it seems like the reflex he speaks of was more of a backhand out of anger. I wouldn't want him over either.
Sure people can say well if were your son that hurt your daughter where would you send him? You would beat his ass, but you can't cause its not your son.
He needs to be at moms for a while.
He isn't coming back. I
He isn't coming back. I refuse to risk my Drs over this. We have been interviewed by dfacs because of this. Dh will have to see him outside of our house because if he brings ss here I will loose it on him!
I'm with Cleaver. A FOUR
I'm with Cleaver.
A FOUR year who still bites is a huge problem. This kid old enough to be on school. You better believe she will be in class with kids who have been instructed by their parents to knock the hell out of anyone kid sho bites them.
We are working on this. The
We are working on this. The Dr thinks she may have sensory issues and she is being sent for testing.
Yep, exactly this. My kid
Yep, exactly this. My kid would bite me ONCE because the punishment would be harsh enough they wouldn't do it again. And four years old? Is she going to head to kindergarten biting other kids? I had a child bite my son when he was in preschool and that child was removed from the school. Bites carry germs. Four is old enough to know better.
The fact that he ran off to
The fact that he ran off to his mother's and has been "hiding out" and posting stupid shit on FB about how she deserved it, tells me enough. He's a punk ass and needs to be dealt with. This is the same kid who stabbed his supposed "bully" and got off scott free.... and by golly look what it taught him????? No freaking surprise here. :?
Hey! Maybe gramps can give the kid a baseball bat so he can "defend" himself against the biting 4 year old!
To be fair he didn't run off,
To be fair he didn't run off, dh dropped him at his mom's on the way to the hospital.
Welllllllll, when my son was
Welllllllll, when my son was 4 (27now) he was standing on the arm of the couch when I walked by. He jumped on my back and jarred my neck. instinctually I shrugged backward with force and he fell off my back, hit the wooden part of the couch and broke his arm. Double break, bent in an S shape.
While I wasn't mad, I was kinda mad. Lol. What is he doing jumping on me???
I can see the reaction. But I have a gaggle of children and shit happens. We are used to things like this.
His reaction would piss me off but it just kinda sounds like a normal kid reaction.
I did this to my son also, he
I did this to my son also, he was probably about 18 months to 2 years, he was mad at me because I wouldn't pay him any attention while I was sitting and eating and he came up and bit me on my thigh before I knew what I was doing I grabbed his arm and bit him, left bite marks. We were at my mothers, she fussed at me for doing that but you know what, he never bit me again, nor anyone at his day care.
I find it odd that if your
I find it odd that if your daughter bit him that his arm would go back towards her. My DD1.5 bites sometimes (and for whatever reason it's ONLY me...guess that's kind of good? :? ) and I naturally pull AWAY from something that hurts, not sling my arm towards her!
I understand an instinctual reaction when you're in pain, but I don't understand why his arm would fling outwards towards her, especially not hard enough for her to fall hard enough to get a concussion. I agree with others above that his reaction seems to be from anger, a quick and inappropriate angry response to being bit.
I would not allow to interact with your daughter without an adult being there to supervise, he obviously has some issues controlling himself. The fact that he's not remorseful is very disturbing as well. People make rash and sometimes bad decisions in a moment, especially pain. But for him to not be bothered by the fact that he really hurt her and put her in danger is terrible.
I know he did it on purpose.
I know he did it on purpose. He didn't yank his arm away he threw it into her. He won't be near her again to get the chance.
Well. Except that one is
Well.
Except that one is FOUR and one is FIFTEEN.
Sorry. 4 year-olds do bite...and have to be taught not to, yes. My nephew is an extremely intelligent, hyperactive (hilarious) 3.5 year-old, and he still bites and hits when he gets over-excited...though very rarely now. Everyone is working on it and helping him overcome this behavior. His 11-year-old half-brother would certainly push him away or, more likely, remove himself from the situation if the kid was bothering him...but he would never DREAM of punching him or shoving him so hard he got a concussion. Of course, those two are really close and adorable together...super impressed with how my step-nephew (sister has full custody and I really consider him my nephew same as the others) has stepped into the big brother role.
If 4-years-old is too big to bite...it's also too big to "accidentally" throw across the room. There's some heft there...you'd have to punch/shove pretty hard.
You don't get a concussion
You don't get a concussion from stumbling backward and tripping over your own feet. Sorry. Especially when, at 4, you're only a couple feet off the ground to begin with.
Have you been around toddlers much? They can fall a hundred times and barely have a single bruise or scratch.
It's true it could have totally been an accident - but not likely to cause that level of damage if so. I'm the oldest of 6 and, once, when my youngest sister was 3 and I was 16, I was bouncing her on my knees when she thought it would be cool to see what would happen if she headbutted me with all her tiny little might. I was holding her with both hands around her torso and, instinctually, when she did this I shoved her away from me. She flew off my lap, landed on her back, and went skidding along our hardwood floor while I instinctively rubbed my forehead. I know she was shocked, and so was I...but as soon as that initial instinctive response wore off I went and scooped her up and comforted her...then told her she better not ever, ever try something like that again. I felt terribly guilty...but she wasn't hurt in the least...just surprised by my reaction.
Say all this to say...I totally get that people can respond out of surprise/shock and do things they wouldn't normally do...of course they can. But rarely in a way that would cause a kid to vomit, pass out, and sustain a concussion. That doesn't sound like accident territory to me at all.
A 4 year old is not a
A 4 year old is not a toddler. She could be heading to kindergarten in the fall. Biting in this age group isn't normal.
The only people who seem to think it's normal are the parents(or family memebes) of overage biters.
OP says she just turned 4.
OP says she just turned 4. That's not a kindergartner. A lot happens between 4 and 5.
If she lived here, she would
If she lived here, she would be able to attend public school in the fall.
It isn't normal for the kids in our prek programs to bite. Even the ones who do not turn 4 until December aren't biting their peers.
Depends on what she hit on
Depends on what she hit on the way down, though. OP stated that DD smacked the back of her head but doesn't tell us against what. My nephew (3 at the time) tripped and cracked his head against a wooden coffee table (rounded corners). No outside forces, but he must have hit at just the right angle because he wound up with a concussion. Threw up the snack he'd eat a few minutes earlier. Luckily his pediatrician had an opening so he didn't need the ER, but the doc said he had a concussion and to watch for x symptoms and sent him home.
Sorry, Two, but it is not
Sorry, Two, but it is not normal for verbal, typically developing 4 year olds to bite.
Actually, it is totally
Actually, it is totally normal.
https://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/children-s-health-10/child-d...
Also...many children over the age of 2-3 bite as a form of play, which is also normal. This is the stage my nephew is in (who is incredibly verbal...non-stop talker and an off-the-charts genius) He thinks it's a game / funny. Of course, they have to be taught that it isn't a game or funny. But acting like it's not a normal phase is just wrong. Children are in the Oral Fixation phase until around 5 or 6.
I should also mention - most children who are older I've encountered who bite as play do so gradually / in stages...not all of the sudden. For instance, my nephew will put my finger in his mouth and look at me with this grin/mischievous twinkle in his eyes and, if I don't stop him instantly, he'll chomp down very lightly and giggle...then gradually intensify. It doesn't hurt at all until the very end..but I have to stop it early and teach him that none of it is acceptable...not just the part that hurts.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/20
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2011/02/biting.aspx
According to this, it's normal in the under 3 (toddlers)set
I think you're confusing
I think you're confusing "more common" with "normal" - it is normal for kids 5 and under (though I've never known a 5-year-old to bite except out of extreme anger) but much more common for toddlers age 2-3. Also, even this says 3 and under...not under 3. Big difference.
Empathy typically doesn't begin to develop until 4, so any behavioral issues like biting, hitting, etc. are normal for a child that hasn't developed empathy yet. This child JUST turned 4. My nephew is still 3, though heading toward 4 now. When I say he still bites...it's not a regular thing. It's only when he thinks he's playing and fairly rare.
My 4 year old grandson will
My 4 year old grandson will bite if he is mad at you. I love him with all my heart but if he ever bites me he will get bitten back. I've seen him try to bite his mom or dad, they usually stop it and will spank him but he still tries....
I can see him yanking his arm
I can see him yanking his arm up.. back.. and away.. all of which might unbalance her and cause her to fall and hit her head.
In fact, I believe I gave my DH a fat lip once in a similar circumstance.
the primal "get off of me" reaction when you are attacked from behind.. and even a 4 yo bite can be painful enough to cause that reaction.
The reason why he is now saying she deserves it is that he probably actually feels very badly that she DID get hurt and he is trying to deflect the guilt and blame.
Oh.. and by all means ban the child from your home. Enjoy divorce court.
I've been debating whether or
I've been debating whether or not to respond, but here it is.
Your 4yo biting is a big deal. Timeouts are clearly not working. That's on you as a parent. You need to find some other currency or consequence. BS4 and BS2 both required different consequences to stop biting (between 18mo and 2yrs, btw).
I feel like there was probably a lot of anger in the reaction from SS15 but it wasn't deliberate. He swung his arm back to shake her off and it was harder than intended. I honestly believe a lot of the reason that SS15 isn't seeming remorseful to YOU is that he is hiding it. You and your DH failed to protect him from a bully to the point where that bully BROKE SS15's ARM. He felt no protection from the authorities and when the bully came after him again he defended himself with a weapon. And YOU blamed SS15 for hurting the bully. I doubt SS15 believes that you care about him at all. Even if injuring DD4 was an accident, why would SS15 expect you to believe him? So SS15 went into a cocky, unapologetic stance to protect himself from you. It doesn't mean he doesn't feel bad about hurting DD4, but he will never show you that remorse. It's a defense mechanism. Machismo to hide his real feelings of regret from someone he doesn't trust.
I think that SS15 probably desperately needs therapy to help him deal with his sense of helplessness turned to anger. It's probably better if SS15 does stay away from you until he learns to control those reactions, simply because a 4yo is going to push limits and until SS15 can control his reactions it's safer for the children to be apart or supervised.
Love your signature!! Just
Love your signature!! Just noticed it
I have started using it often
Yeah. It used to crack me up
Yeah. It used to crack me up when skids pulled out the "slaves" line on me.
I also used to tell SD (now 17, 10-12 at the time) when she would go on and on about so-and-so having an iPhone. Or, one time, so-and-so's 8-year-old little sister just got the new iPhone for her birthday!!!
Me: "Aw. I'm so sorry to hear that! Poor girl's parents must not love her very much...giving her a brain-rotting, addictive device like that..."
I don't think it was
I don't think it was premeditated. SS is meek and quiet. He avoids conflict at all costs. He was at the skate park when the bully got there. The bully went there looking for him. I never asked ss why he didn't leave before I posted here but I did last night. I went into his room and asked if we could talk. He didn't want to but I said tough I need to understand why you did this. I am judging you and I don't like it. So he closed his book and talked to me. He said there was no where to go. Had he left he would have been all alone with this kid in the parking lot. He has/had been keeping the knife with him every where he went in case that fool jumped him again. He doesn't care he almost killed him and he wished he had so he didn't have to be afraid anymore.
^^^^ This is what you wrote in a previous blog. Now he is a psychopath that beats a 4 year olds face in? It is obvious from your post that you do not like this kid. I think you are using this as an excuse to get him out of your house so it will only be you, DH and your terrible 4 year old.
Wow,this is heart breaking.
Wow,this is heart breaking.
oops
oops
So OP can't have a natural,
So OP can't have a natural, instinctive maternal response or change her mind about her SS's character as new information / new situations come to light?
She wrote this after he
She wrote this after he stabbed someone. I think I would freak out about that more than him lashing out at a 4 year old that bit him.
Would I be upset that my 4 year old ended up in the hospital and we were being investigated my CPS? Yes. Would I ban my SS from ever coming back over? NO.
If she was that concerned
If she was that concerned that SS was a crazy person why would she or DH leave DD alone in the room with him? Where were the parents? What was SS doing when this happened? What did DD hit her head on?
FYI - the average 15-year-old
FYI - the average 15-year-old male is around 125 lbs, 5'6" - that's about my size as an adult woman.
The average 4-year-old girl is around 34 lbs and 3'1/4"
Not saying that biting doesn't hurt. Just saying there are probably better options for someone who is likely nearly 100 lbs heavier and 2.5-feet taller and 11 years more emotionally mature than this child.
It would be different if she
It would be different if she came at him.. bit him.. then turned around and ran. Then he deliberately walked across the room and shoved her into the wall.
It sounds like the reaction to the bite an involuntary reaction to get the "attacker" off him.
You know, like when we feel something fall on our back and we flail about because we think we just got bombed by a spider? We react in a instinctive manner which is not premeditated or with the forethought to think.. hey, she is only 34 pounds and I am 125.
She didn't get the chance to
She didn't get the chance to discipline the kid bc said biting kid was in the hospital.
Also, again, everyone's assuming that she just went up to her brother unprovoked and chomped down with all her might. The biting children of that age that I've encountered...that's not typical. Usually, they are playing or roughhousing and bite because they think it's a game.
I agree that the biting has to stop...but that doesn't mean the kid who is 11 years older gets a free pass on this.
I have six of my own, none
I have six of my own, none were biters either.
And plenty of normal, verbal,
And plenty of normal, verbal, intelligent children who grow into well-adjusted adults went through a biting phase. It's a perfectly natural and fairly common phase that some kids go through. (1-2 kids out of 10, by most accounts)...a phase they've to be taught to outgrow. Not a sign that something's is "horribly wrong" with them. You not having any biters proves...what exactly?
That's like saying: "None of my kids wet the bed. You must be doing something wrong!"
Well...no. Some kids do, some kids don't.
Wrong again. I don't have any
Wrong again. I don't have any children. I have worked with them extensively in a professional capacity.
I'm the oldest of 6 and none of my siblings were biters though one was a chewer. I have a nephew who is 3 and he will bite very rarely and only if he thinks he's playing/roughhousing with an adult. I've never seen or heard of him biting another child...wouldn't call him a "biter"
The only people who think
The only people who think this is normal in a child this age are people who have a special connection to an over age biter.
Lol. Ok. If y'all say so.
Lol. Ok. If y'all say so.
I'm always amazed by how much you just 'know' about everyone and everything from behind a computer screen. How 'right' you always are. I've literally been around and worked with hundreds of children in my life...as part of the Head Start program and other initiatives...but surely I have no idea what I'm talking about.
If the biting is what most here have assumed...a fully unprovoked, full force chomp down on an unsuspecting victim then I would agree that's cause for concern...and the OP has already said her daughter is being tested for sensory processing issues. But sure, let's all pick on a 4-year-old who may or may not be on the spectrum...and her parents who are trying to figure it out.
Because of my experiences, I assumed that the biting was more like what I've seen happen in this age group...playing around, rough housing together...and THEN a bite happens...usually not without warning and usually not malicious but thought of as part of the game. This is a very different thing and not uncommon at all.
I kind of got that she came
I kind of got that she came up behind him or sprung this on him in a surprising manner. Not that they were roughhousing to any extent. But, we weren't there.. nor was OP, so all they can go on is what the kids tell them.
I know it's not the same but
I know it's not the same but this is why my ex got the cats. The guy I was moving in with was a long standing friend. Wonderful guy. Super sweet wouldn't hurt anyone. Except my cat for some reason always attacked him. It was completely unprovoked and a supprise. We were playing a game the first time I saw it. Friend didn't even know she was there and just bit down as hard as could be. Anyways the supprise of being bit did cause him to react. And if she hasn't been faster she'd been dead.
My point for this story is. This man who I'm still friends with and trust with my life would react quiet dramatically. You have to step back a bit. I'm not saying he's completely innocent. But if he was sitting there listening to music, playing a game, whatever and she bit him he's going to react. Ontop of that it was hard enough that she fell and hit her head. Yeah he doesn't feel bad. He probably does need some serious help but I'm assuming you and him don't get along to well already. He's gonna be defensive.
My thought is this teenager
My thought is this teenager reacted. Teens are strong and aren't adults. They don't have fully devolved brains and are still learning. Ontop of this he lives in a home where he knows he's not cared about unlike little sister.
I mean him taking a knife to protect himself for a bully is extreme. Means he didn't feel safe. No one stepped up. But when my friends kid got kicked out for threatening to kill a bully guess what happen. His parents wanted to know what was happening to the bully they weren't told about. Why did the school allow it to get so bad that the kid went to that extreme.
He may feel bad but guess what he's not gonna let that out because OP isn't gonna care. If it was an accident it doesn't matter. Threating to kick him out is only gonna make it worse. He's protecting himself the only way he knows how by not caring. You teach them that love isn't unconditional and they have to find a way to cope.
I'm not saying it's right and he does need to learn self control but guess what teenagers are impulsive. They have poor long term reasoning skills. They aren't adults.
He didn't only hit her she also fell and hit her head. It's not just about force from his hit because just the right spot and it's gonna be bad no matter what.
Like some have said, it's
Like some have said, it's defensive posturing. He feels guilty for doing it, and he knows he is already being vilified for it.
I wouldn't be so quick to
I wouldn't be so quick to blame him... when I worked at a daycare I had a two year old bite my hand out of no where once. And knee jerk reaction was to shove him away with the hand that was partially in his mouth so he fell back pretty hard. Your biggest problem is a 4 year old that bites.
Fruits..... I've said it
Fruits..... I've said it before and I'm saying it again, you are endangering your children, this is not the first time SS caused harm to another child, I would've left after the stabbing.... I am sorry but this kid was not bullied, he seems like the bully and now every one is using this excuse..
your 4 year old still biting is a clear indication she's not happy at home, and it's your responsibility as a mother to ensure your children are happy and feels safe... but you prefer to stays in this marriage and you choose love above the safety of your children......
break the cycle and get the hell out.
Many, many moons ago... My #2
Many, many moons ago...
My #2 was a biter. He was about 2. I did bite him back. Right on his chubby little baby arm. The shock and horror and, yes, pain on his little face as he looked up at me shattered my heart into a million pieces. He never bit again.
Another time, my XH, his wife and I were at one of my kids tournaments. XH's skids were also there. The 3 of us were standing there talking. Out of nowhere, I felt a very painful bite, through my jeans, almost on the back of my right thigh. With zero thought, I instinctually swung my arm in a backhand motion and knocked the little monster off my leg. I did make contact. Fairly strong contact, I suppose. The monster flew backwards landing on her butt/back and would have cracked her head on the gym floor had the monster not knocked into the people behind me in the crowded gym. All that was going through my mind, at the time was WTF??!!
This all happened very fast. The 3 of us, at the same time, realized it was SM's daughter. She was 4. I remember XH & myself both saying loudly SHE JUST BIT ME (YOU)! I was shocked. XH was pissed that she bit me. SM was furious that I dared touch her daughter!
SM had been "working on it" with time outs and such. XH didn't think it was working... obviously. They started on each other. The little monster started screaming, got up and came to hit me. XH snatched her up, handed her to SM and she took the monster out. XH apologized to me.
Ya know... I was told that incident ended her reign of biting terror.
I am 5'6 and 125 pounds. The same size as that 15yo boy.