Highly Dysfunctional Adult SD
My DH had been divorced for almost 20 years prior to our marriage. He has been very active in his daughter's lives; both are in their 30's, one is a highly dysfunctional alcoholic (OSD) and the other (YSD) is pleasant. Most people understand that the addition of a significant other/spouse (whether for the child or parent) will change the dynamics of the relationship...and you adapt. I knew of OSD's issues and was prepared to love her. How could I not? She's my husband's daughter.
There has been no adapting for OSD! She hated me before she met me. She has called me vile, filthy names, talked trash about her mother, talked trash and lied about her father, been nasty about my kids (whom she has never met), has told lies about me to DH's family, has threatened me, and made it clear she wants me gone. I am fully aware that this would be her reaction to anyone DH was involved with. (That should help, but it doesn't.) This sums it up:
OSD made a pile of poo. OSD walked through the poo. OSD saw the poo on her shoe. OSD kept right on walking and spread the poo. OSD tells people it's Trudie's poo. (It's not Trudie's poo!)
A little history on OSD: She has been a challenge since her early teens. (According to my SIL, she was a challenge "out of the womb".) When DH first told me about her, four things stand out: She lies, she steals, she needs to be the center of attention, and he could only tolerate her in small doses. She has been in treatment for substance abuse/eating disorders over 30 times. Her family basically sweeps her dysfunctional, ugly behavior under the rug. DH was weary of 20+ years of nonsense and was setting limits with her before we met. We married and he has continued to set limits; because of OSD treatment of me, their relationship has changed drastically. She used to come and stay once a month, but she is no longer welcome in our home. (DH confided in me that he never wanted her here in the first place; he would have to lock up his valuables, she was a slob, etc.) OSD blames the changes in their relationship on me, not her behavior that has caused the changes. She lies about her behavior too, via denial and deflection. She is very sick. Throughout this nonsense, I have been gracious, encouraging, and unreactive; an unkind word has never crossed my lips. I did set boundaries and made it clear that her abusive behavior would not be tolerated. Presently, I have nothing to do with her; early on I tried to foster communication and resolution, but have gone no contact.
A litte history abut me: I have both personal (My father (deceased) and sister are alcoholics. I had an abusive ex-husband.) and professional (Over 30 years in nursing.) experience with abuse and addiction. Personally, I have "done the work" and I continue to do the work with an excellent therapist; I really am fortunate because she assisted me in taking my life back. Professionally, I spent 2 1/2 years focusing on addiction and family dynamics when I returned to school for an advanced nursing degree.
My DH and I have an amazing marriage; the one difficulty is dealing with OSD's continued dysfunctional behavior, it has been a huge stressor for us. Even though I know that OSD will always be DH's daughter, it is really hard for me when they do see each other; I feel betrayed in a sense. I think it's giving her the message that she can continue her name-calling, abuse, lies, and disrespect towards me because ultimately she is getting what she wants. Time with "daddy". Silently acquiescing is a green light for behavior to continue. It's also important to note that she is abusive and disrespectful to her father as well. It is not as easy for him to take a hard pass as it is for me.
I really do seek resolution, but understand that all parties must be willing to be truthful and work toward a positive outcome. I do not see OSD ever doing so. Does anyone have any tips on handling this situation gracefully?
Disengagement and letting go of what you cannot control
Disengagement and letting go of what you cannot control, that has been the really big message for me wrt SD25 Feral Forger. She sounds like a twin to your SD30something.
Feral Forger has been stealing for a long time, and then stole checks and forged amounts and signatures and kited them, almost getting husbands account locked down and apparently getting toxic troll BMs account locked down. Clothers, cash you name it - its fair game, even now. When she was living with Toxic Troll and SD18 Princess Powersulk Do Nada, I heard that she was pigpen, and twice was asked to move out, and only did so when Bm moved. Husband move her down from 300 miles away twice and had to pay and clean. Shes mentally unstable (to put it mildly) and her mother has physically abused her, yet they are thick as theives and she calls BM her "real parent".
Now she just recently asked husband for $$ to pay her (delinquent) phone bill and because he did not have the $$ handy, she went off the deep end telling him that "he abandoned her for his wh@re of a wife..." normally she just calls him his name or Sperm Donor, ATM dad...but now she went on a family text and called him her abuser, and went off on the family telling them they are "supporting my abuser".
Shes currently no contact (whoot!), but husband has tried to have a relationship with her, outside the house.
You cannot control what she sais and does, you have to let it go. If your husband wants to maintain contact (consider how it would go for him if he went no contact and told her that she needs to apologise to you! Not GOOD.) Many here maintain that if a father wants to maintain a relationship with his toxic spawn, that he at the minimum require that spawn not to bad mouth you to him when they visit. BUT youd think repercussions would be much higher. In these sick, twisted family dynamics, you may not get that, so you must disengage from everything and anything to with OSDToxic Spawn, and your husband MUST have your back. He must discuss this with his family. Husband did not, and BIG SURPRISE when Feral Forger showed herself to them. So, YOUR husband MUST discuss with his family so that it doesnt come to bite you later.
Let him spend his time with OSDToxic SPawn. Just no money goes to her. Make certain your wills are in place in case something happens to him, get all the financials solid. Life insurance. All that good stuff. Because with her high level of hatred of you, she WILL come after you and his assets.
Twins
Thank you for your reply and insight. Yes, it does sound a bit like our SDs could be twinning! OSD does have a psych diagnosis, although DH is not sure what. Professionally, I would place her in the Cluster B category. Thankfully there is no money going her way, not for her lack of trying; other than birthday and a small gift at Christmas. She has wanted rent money, car payment, etc. and also threatened to end her life if DH did not co-sign a car loan...he didn't. (I cringe when I think about our first Christmas together and how I went out of my way to select nice gifts for her, even though she would not be with us as she was already barred from our home. I look back and wonder why I wasted my time?)
Yes, I did note when reading the threads that many do have relationships with their toxic children. Yes, I would think the repercussions of abusive behavior would be higher! Am really interested to understand why they are not! I am thankful that DH has my back and shuts it down immediately when she starts calling me names, etc. Interesting fact: DH just asked me this week to write down what my experience has been like; he wants to share it with his mother, sister, and other daughter. I have never shared my side of the story; I'm not sure they care even though DH says they like me. What I am sure of is that if someone does a family member or friend of mine dirty, they are dead to me.
I have a hard time understanding hatred for a person one had never met; still, to this day, she does not know me. Yet the hatred continues. I honestly don't think there is anyone I hate.
We are good financially. DH and I made sure of it!
I would be careful giving an
I would be careful giving an honest recap of your experiences to your in-laws. No-one wants to hear the bad side of their relatives. I would just be honest but in a diplomatic way, so your husband is supported but you aren't being held up as the one with the problem with his kids. Otherwise your honest recap will be thrown back in your face at some point in the future.
Honesty....
Thank you for your input. Yes, I had been worried about the same thing. I discussed this with my therapist and she thought it would be beneficial that they know WHY DH sticks up for me when they have asked, "Why can't they just get along?" It was written with facts and unemotionally. It was explained to all that this was just to share facts and not an attempt to make anyone choose sides.
DH also asked me to help him put his thoughts to paper, so he could let them know what he has been dealing with all these years. He asked for their support and they did not show up for him. Not one showed an ounce of compassion or empathy. That breaks my heart. He is selfless and would do anything for his mom, sister, and YSD at the drop of a hat. Ultimately he is at peace with his choice to inform them of what has gone on, so that is good.
I started a thread and gave an update on OSD. I told about the incident the day before Father's Day. In DH's words, she was a "raving lunatic". It was scary. She is scary. We are taking steps to protect me.
Also...
...I should have mentioned that he told his family how I had been nothing but kind to OSD and supportive to him.
I agree with your therapist.
I agree with your therapist. Facts. They matter. They also shut down a lot of manipulative bullshit from a willfully clueless toxic opposition.
I applaud your DH putting his family in their place with the facts.
I Am NO CONTACT...
with DHs kids, 6 years now. Twelve years of tolerating toxic behaviors that, in the end, sent me to a dark place. Three years in counseling/group work/friend support and I made it back to ME. This past year has seen interaction with two of DHs kids. Civil and superficial and very awkward. As we age, DH won't be able to travel to see them and they'll need to come here. As long as they are respectful in our home, I'll be civil and kind. But nothing deep. As you said about your SD, work needs to be done and they are not capable. I've come to the place of forgiveness but as it was said in several books I've read....Forgiveness takes one. Me. Reconciliation takes two people WORKING on resolution. DHs kids don't have those skills so civil and superficial it will be.
I get what your saying about how you feel when your DH does see her...like it's condoning her BS. I felt the same for a while. But look at it this way. She's not allowed in your marital home. Your DH supports that. She has no access to you so you have much more peace. After I processed those thoughts, it got a lot easier to see DH off to visit his kids. I use that time to do ME stuff. Since he must travel, it's typically a week I get to myself. The last time was in March and my week flew by, filled with so much fun and rest. DH and I talked daily and I must admit, I smiled when he said he'd made his trip too long and was ready to come home.
DH does have one kid with serious mental issues and I'm not sure if I'll allow her back in our home anytime soon. Her last interaction after not seeing her for 10 years was NOT good...I told her to leave my home and never come back. Time will tell. But she WILL behave if she comes here....or be told to leave again.
Best to you.
I read a lot of books too!
Thank you for your reply and insight. I, too, am an avid reader and have done extensive reading/research about the dynamics of step families. (My research tells me that men typically have an easier time with acceptance. This is true for my husband; he has a great relationship with both my mom and my children. I am thankful for this.) No, I do not believe my OSD is capable of working towards a resolution; she appears to be her own worst enemy as DH and I have agreed she not only lies to others, she believes the lies, and she lies to herself. Even her therapist said she is not willing to do the work.
I appreciate that you understand how I feel about the visits; thankfully they are mainly just an occasional brief breakfast or lunch. I know I can not change someone else or a situation, I am trying to change how I see and respond to it...I am just not there yet. Have never dealt with behavior this bad....
I can not imagine OSD will ever have the privelege of being welcome in our home. I know that many can not say the same.
You are not going to change SD
Your only choice is to disengagement. Not letting SD in your mind. Not careing about SD. Not haveing any actions , talks, Facebook. With SD. Not letting DH talk about SD. NO gifts or cards to SD.
This sounds wise.
Thank you for your reply and insight. You are right! I need to not give her mental space! I am working on this.... Agreed, no money should be flowing her way in any capacity.
OP, everyone in your step
OP, everyone in your step situation is an adult. This means you each get to choose who gets to be in your life. There's no need to beat around the bush, try to find a way for your DH's sake, or attempt reunification. You GET to choose peace, and you GET to not tolerate mistreatment. No apologies, no guilt.
If anyone has a problem with that, too bad. Remember to position yourself sympathetically - you wish things were different, you wish your husband's daughter could overcome her issues *sniffs and wipes a tear*, you know she's just lashing out because she's mentally unwell, but at this time it's best for everyone if you step back.
As others have advised, maintain boundaries that protect your peace, your home, and your finances. If your DH wants to vent, listen, be noncommital, then change the subject. This is his cross to bear for as long as he chooses to be involved, however most men are avoidant creatures who just want to be comfortable. It may sound like advice from the 1950s, but if you're the one offering a calm home, good food, sex, and validation, it's likely just a matter of time before he steps back from his daughter's drama.
I choose peace.
You are right! Everyone is an adult. I choose to protect my peace and my marriage. DH understands that. I do not feel guilt; my behavior has been above reproach. DH knows that. He always tells me to, "Respond how you choose, I know you don't get in the mud." He's right...I don't get in the mud with anybody.
Thank you, I really like the sympathetic angle. I am going to run with that. If they don't understand, their problem not mine.
Agreed, why are many men avoidant?!
IMHO, you are dealing with
IMHO, you are dealing with this appropriatey. Though I would advise a complete zero tolerance position for anyone who is toxic to you, your marriage, and your mate.
You own her idiot ass, so wear that mantle and rub her nose in her toxicity to the fullest extent possible. Her daddy seems to get it for the most part. I advise you take the bare her ass party as public as is needs to be for anyone and everyone in the mix to not be able to ignore her crap.
Let your DH know that the gloves are now off with his DDs. Both of them. If they are toxic and refuse to behave reasonably then it is time for them to live lives of escalating abject misery. If they are reasonable, they will be treated reasonably, if not... game on.
You have done the work. You are a professional. You know that these people reach a point where they are beyond salvage and it is at that point that anyone and everyone they try to victimize goes zero tolerance and full frontal bring the pain.
This is easy for me to say. I won the parent lottery, and ultimately won the bride lottery, and the Skid lottery. However, I did have a toxic mate experience that ended in divorce. Fortunately that was all short lived and my XW took her toxic road show on to, at last count, two more husbands and had three all out of wedlock spawn. Her eldest and youngest are both cheat babies conceived with a cheat partner while she was married to first me, then Fortune 500 executive geriatric sugar/baby daddy who was her last of several cheat partners during our marriage. Her youngest she spawned while cheating on grandpa sugar/baby daddy. We also battled my SS's toxic SpermClan for 16+ years we lived under the CO. Though that was, on the scale of StepFamily drama, fairly low since my bride was the CP with full physical and legal custody and we never lived within 1200 miles of SpermLand so SS's SpermCLan visitation was limited and long distance. SS-31 is a self supporting adult, a man of character and honor, and a man of standing in his profession and community. His three younger also out of wedlock Spermidiot spawed half sibs by two other baby mamas include #2 who is on the dole, #3 who is in prison, and #4 who is not far behind the inmate.
We stood our ground against the SpermClan toxicity defending SS and our lives, and we held our son (my SS who I adopted at his request) to clear standards of behavior and standards of performance.
You should hold your SKidults to standards that you set, require, and enforce.
Be good to you. You and DH have each other's backs, and partner in defending each other, your marriage, and your home from these toxic failed family SKidults.
All IMHO of course.
Thank you.
Thank you for your reply and insight. I feel I've done a great job maintaining my high standard of conduct where OSD is concerned. As far as exposing her nonsense, that will be forthcoming. DH had already asked me to write down some notes on how this has affected me (and indirectly him); I was able to keep it factual and unemotional. I did tell him I was expecting anger towards me, because it is way easier for the family to maintain denial and blame me for the problem. I'm ready!
I was surprised when DH showed me a podcast this morning with Mel Robbins, featuring Dr. Ramani. It was about dealing with narcissists. I am proud of him for taking a good, hard, long look at his daughter, accepting what he has seen, and educating himself on how to deal with the issues. Funny thing is she started a huge stink 2 weeks ago where she said she was going to "block you and never look back". Yes, that lasted about 3 minutes. He showed me all of the text exchange and asked for help with his reply. He laid down some boundaries which she promptly trod over; her response was a threatening message to me full of accusations, name calling, and threats. (She sent it three times. No response from me. I have blocked her.) Today she just texted saying she was in town and did he want to stop over and get his card and gift? He wanted to know what to do? My response was to remind him that he set appropriate boundaries, she responded with threats to me, and this is her way to smooth things over without owning her bad behavior. Hard pass! Do not fall for the nonsense! I have to remind myself that he does not have the background I have, and setting boundaries is new to him. He has come a long way.
I will admit that I feel like an idiot because I had no idea marrying into a family with adult children would be so difficult. I do not have friends who have had step parents or who have step kids. This is all new to me.
I’m an idiot too!
I too had no idea adult kids could be so difficult and immature.
I actually do have lots of friends in blended family situations with adult kids and all the adult kids I know support their parents finding someone.
I also never knew adult kids needed alone time with parents all the time. I don't really need "alone" time with anyone but my spouse. With my own kids? Other people can be there! With my parents? Yep anyone is welcome. I don't get it!
We should start a club!
Idiots unite! In all seriousness, I is awful feeling like an idiot.
Yes, one would think a person would support their parent's happiness. OSD's addiction and mental illness seriously impair that notion.
Agreed, I don't desire alone time with anyone other than my spouse either.
You are not an idiot for
You are not an idiot for marrying into a failed family dynamic with failed family spawn. Idiots enter into those situations and then do not confront and deal with the toxicity.
You are clearly working with your DH to deal with the toxic failed family weenus lemur that keeps assaulting your marriage, your DH, and you. Stand together and defend that wall against he corrupted issue. Mean is mean. Regardless of who it comes from and mean should never be tolerated.
You are rocking this. Never back down, never give in, never surrender. Ever.
Thank you!
I appreciate your words of support. I am tenacious for sure! If I truly believe in something, I am all in. It is hard being seen as unreasonable though...even though I know it is their problem. I understand that some will never want to "see" the truth, even though they see it.
Do you know who doesn't like boundaries? Those who want to cross them!
So many times I wonder how my husband is the man he is, considering how the rest of his family is so avoidant?
The SKids have no credibility
The SKids have no credibility so why give a shit what they want to tag you with other than the fact that they want to tag you with it. Why does not matter. Destroy their attempt to tag you with a label of being unreasonable.
What is unreasonable is to tolerate their drap. Whoever they think they are.
IMHO.
Go for their throats. No quarter, no mercy. Be classy, be direct, be brutal, and be relentless. The one who never gives up wins. Even when they crawl back under their slime covered rock, be aware and be ready to immediately confront their crap.
Never forget, that on top of zero tolerance, living well is the best revenge. It is living well that continuously rubs their nose in their own toxicity.
Yes!
You are right! Reasonable people know that I am reasonable, I will go above and beyond. Why am I worried about what unreasonable, sick (Yes, sick...alcoholism is a family disease. It impacts everyone it touches to some degree. It is upon the individual to seek help and get healthy.) people think? That is silly! Thank you for the reminder.
As one of my wise and wonderful friends reminds me, "They are playing checkers, you better play chess!" Of course she is right! One can definitely be classy when giving a...smackdown, for lack of a better word. My motto: Kill them with kindness and bury them with a smile.
When I think about it, we really are living our best life. Even though we are dealing with this nonsense. OSD has threatened me with "consequences" if I dare to show up at family functions she is attending. I refuse to sit home and act guilty as if I have done something wrong. I will continue to get up, dress up, and show up. If that makes others uncomfortable, that is on them.Part of me can't wait to see the consequences, it'll be amusing to watch her dig herself a deeper hole. I think she has not yet truly figured out who she is dealing with, I think she has mistaken my kindness for weakness. I did not get where I am at today, personally and professionally, by being weak.
Whily you may be keeping the
Whily you may be keeping the pressure on, make sure that you do not let your kindness give her an inch. These types always take a mile when an inch is surrendered.
For a number of years my DW would default to her true heart of gold kindness. SpermGrandHag would immediately crawl out from under the slime covered rock that the SpermClan resided under at the bottom of their shallow and polluted gene pool and immediately go back to the same depraved manipulative crap that caused DW to rip her throat out last time she plied her toxic crap. It took several cycles of stomping on their throates legally, financially, and socially before my DW decided enough was enough and after that she never lifted her foot from the Hag's throat.
Be kind, but be warry. Tolerate no bullshit.
Be nice, until it is time to not be nice.
Take care of you.
Agreed!
'Be nice, until it is time to not be nice.' This is it!
I can relate
Yes my DH gives SD what she wants for not wanting me around, which is to not bring me with him when he visits.
i feel like that is rewarding her for not being accepting of our relationship.
YES!!!
THIS is what I am talking about! Why reward bad behavior? Scratching my head trying to figure that one out. (I think back to when my kids were young, they had rules with consequences. Nothing harsh, just resonable. They were great kids and they are great adults. I am blessed.)
Wink. Hmmm. Quality parenting raised great adults?
No way!!!
The basics are pretty simple which is why it is so infuriating when SParents who know and have parented successfully dive into a turbulent failed family issue situation. Ill raised, ill behaved, substandard kids. Those who raise good ones are baffled by the nightmare of those who don't.
Standards of behavior, standards of performance, boundaries, and accountability. Pretty simple.
So many make it so hard which is baffling.
Congratulations on your great kids/kidults.
How does your SO align on the difference between the quality of your kids and lack of quality of his?
We only have on. SS is an only in our marriage. Like you did with yours, he was raised with rules with consequences. Nothing harsh, just resonable.
My brother raised his the same way. Ours and his are all self supporting viable adults of character, standing in their lives, careers, and communities. SS's 3 half sibs on his SpermDad's side include one on the dole, one in prison, and one not far behind the inmate.
My DW is the eldest of 4. She is the outlyer in her generation. She is highly educated, professionally employed, and very successful. Her three younger sibs are hand to mouth and raise their kids with less than stellar rules and standards. Most of our nieces and nephews on DW's side are decided unpleasant to spend time with. They are rude, loud, mouthy, and have a decidedly baffling sense of superiority that is entirely unfounded.
Interestingly my ILs all have a common perspective that it is okay to underperform.
Even when they do well in HS and have any number of opportunities, they choose low levels of life opportuntiy rather than the top tier opportunities that they earn with their HS performance. It is as if they run to the lowest level they can. On purpose. Their parents tolerate it and even support it as "they are 18, we raised them to make their own decisions".
We are more the push for performance and maximizing opportunity perspective.
Yes way!
It is indeed interesting to compare notes on how kids are raised and how they turn out! To me, parenting is the most important job I will ever have; since my kids are now 24 and 25, the dynamic has changed. I taught them the best I could through word and deed and I know their life choices are up to them. Of course, I am always here when they need me. But I do not butt in!
DH has noticed some differences between our kids, but I do not bring it up.
I have done a lot of research about the effects of "permissive" parenting, which is fairly common. Negligent parenting is even worse. I have concluded that many are just not cut out to raise healthy, productive citizens of the world we live in today. I have also concluded that many are excellent parents whose kids struggle, and the opposite is also true. Raising kids is tough! Blessings to all who give their best effort!
Ours is 31 pushing 32. He
Ours is 31 pushing 32. He won the mom lottery. I won the DW and the SKid lottery. We are a month from our 30th anniversary. Our son (I adopted him when he was 22 at his request and have been his dad from when he was a toddler), is a man of character, honor, and standing as an adult, in his profession, and his community.
Becoming a parent is the one eternal decision anyone can make. Once you have a child, you are a parent for eternity. That role never ends. Regardless of when kid milestones are. Even kidults need parenting occassionally.
I'm 60 and my parents bring the parenting upon occassion even now. Anything from support to letting the wind out of my sails to a kick to my pushing Sr citizen age kidult backside.
You are blessed.
That is pretty amazing that your SS wanted you to adopt him...that speaks volumes!
I Feel Your Pain
I must admit, I love your poo analogy and laughed at that. How funny, Trudie. Love it.
And I 100% understand what you're saying about still seeing his toxic daughter. I feel the same way about that. I don't think that people who are toxic and crazy deserve any time and/or attention given to them. I said this to DH, if your kids do grow up to be these toxic people, do you even still want them around? And his answer was yes. I guess for me, it'd be a hard no. I feel that once his job as a parent is finished (and that is when the kid reaches the age of 18), then the relationship will be like any other adult relationship and it would require a two-way street, whereby both adults put in equal amount of effort, and show equal amount of respect to one another and also respect to their partner. You don't necessarily have to like and admire their partner, but you do have to respect them and consider their feelings.
I, for one, is a person who chooses my relationships carefully. When I was young I had a best friend who was toxic, she would never stop comparing the two of us, between our looks, education, background, what I wear, what I drove and what I can afford. She would always compete and always seek admiration from others and she won't ever stop. We were friends for maybe nearly 10 years. Eventually we had a big argument and we never patched it up. In hindsight, I thought we would never be friends moving forward anyway, and I was glad in a way to get rid of her, because she was really exhausting to be around. The argument was a shame, and maybe it didn't have to end that way, but I'm glad it ended because it actually gave me a chance to meet other friends. Since then I became really good friends with this other lady, who is nothing like her. And I really now cherish my friendship with her, and it truly woke me up as to how friendships should be, and definitely it shouldn't be the way it was with that other girl.
Point is, I work hard in choosing which relationships I get to keep as an adult, and people who are toxic, crazy, manipulative, etc. don't get to be around me, and I select my circle carefully. I get that his daughters are his kids, and will always be his no matter what, but I agree with you that I wouldn't necessarily be in touch with them if that's how they are, because why should you be keeping a relationship where you cannot be respectful of the other person? My SDs are so manipulative and entitled, and everything has to always be about them. They never care about how my DH and I truly are; they only ever use us, and they talk trash about us the minute we don't do what they want. They're just like their mother and her side of the family. They all act like as if they are the queens and princesses and deserve men and other people to be falling on their knees and to be begging them to be blessed by their presence. It is ridiculous and gross the way they act, and the way they're taught to act.
I would never encourage relationship between my DH and SDs and in fact I am constantly telling him how crazy they act so that he wakes up and smell their poos LOL. I truly feel for you. I don't have an answer, but I do emphatise with you. If you do find out what the answer is one day, please do let me know!
It's all about the poo!
Thank you for your reply and insight. I included the poo analagy in my note to DH's family; he questioned if I should take it out, but I wouldn't. I wanted to break it down, spell it out, and make it easy for them to understand! I realize now, more than ever, how deep the denial is. Alcoholism is a family disease. The family needs treatment for recovery just as the alcoholic does. It is on each individual to obtain help for themselves.
Thank you for understanding how I feel about him seeing OSD. I think it is hard for many to understand. I don't believe in rewarding bad hehavior. Period! DH has finally set boundaries regarding her behavior and expectations to be met for them to have a relationship. So far she has ignored both the boundaries and expectations. In his words, "She is digging a deeper hole." I am proud of him for standing up to her and sticking with it. We have discussed that it is up to her to mend the relationship. Or not.
Agreed, it is so important to choose wisely when we let others into our inner circle. Family should not get an automatic free pass. I have asked DH, "Would you tolerate this from a friend? Why do you tolerate it from your daughter?" Loyal family and friends are a blessing to be cherished.
I really do wish I had the answers...I have learned there are so many who are hurting....
The parent/child
relationship is very different than other adult relationships. It can be twisted and warped and unhealthy but it includes a connection unlike any other. I'm not saying it's more important than other adult relationships but it can't be lumped together with other adults relationships.
Yes!
You are so right! Do you think that's why the unhealthy dynamics are so difficult to deal with? Because it's easier to pretend everything is great?
If anything, ignoring it is more difficult than addressing it.
I have lived this lesson in many areas of my life.
When I was young I lived this lesson in school. I worked far harder earning an F than I ever did earning an A. The constant tension of attempted self delusion, avoidance, hiding it, and the lies both active and of omission. I learned this in grade school, I learned in HS, I learned in Undergrad. I would reset and succeed in between but when I would backslide, the lesson was ready to beat me into clarity.
I have lived and learned it in my career.
I have lived it in marriage. The 2.5years of hell of my first marriage lasted an eternity. The 30 years of a life of adventure and love for the ages together with my incredible bride has gone by in a blink of an eye. Not that we have not had challenges and problems. We certainly have. But, we did not ignore them, we defeated them together. Sooner rather than later. Which is why they were never a significant interferance in .... us.
Addressing the problem is far easier than ignorning it IMHO. Ignoring it lets it linger, fester, and it rarely goes away. Often ignoring it just lets the problem grow.
IMHO of course.
Agreed.
In the short term, ignoring can be easier...but not long term. I agree, ignoring issues leads to festering and eventually blow-ups...not at all healthy behavior. All people/families have a level of dysfunction, whether one chooses to own it or not. The 2 big questions are: 1. How severe is the level of dysfunction? and 2. What is being done about it? Unfortunately some are unable to handle the truth. Sad, because confronting our truths (ugly or not) leads to growth and isn't that what life is about? Learning, growing, and showing up as our best self!
It is about the journey of continual refinement
It is about the journey of continual refinement of living well, happily, confidently, and with a focus on never abandoning being our best for ourselves, our mate, and our marriage. Kids, etc... can either get on board or get run over.
The freight train of living lives of continual goodness. Those who want to play well get on board, those who don't play on the tracks and are obliterated as their toxicity gets them turned in to train track road kill. Their choice.
I know subtlety is not my strong suit.
100%
You are not subtle...and that's okay. I do agree!
no win!
two very adult childre living in a miilion dollar gouse paying no expenses! My partner wants me to move thre!!...I own my own house...its becomming a real issue...i am 71....dont i deserve my own space...helives 95 % of time in my home...his kids live in the mansion!
Tell him sure. You will move
Tell him sure. You will move to his mansion when his spawn are gone and he provides you with proof of their gone-ness and a documented legally binding defense against their return.
I have no relationship with
I have no relationship with my SD. Her behavior, while bad, has been nothing like your SD's. Still, she is no longer welcome in our home, but DH does go to see her maybe 2x a year. I am ok with that even though I have told DH that if anyone in my family "disapproved" of him and had behaved in the same manner, that person would be out of my life. (I am welcome--using the term loosely--in SD's home, although I have never been; she knows DH has limits and she doesn't want to fully jeopardize their relationship, which is partially based on cash grabs). I have lower tolerance for nonsense and stronger boundaries than DH.
I know DH loves his toxic daughter, as I'm sure your DH loves his.. I believe he views her as the cute little elementary school age girl she was when he last lived with her (he acknowledges that who she was is what has stuck with him). I have no control over that. So, while he sees the person who views me as "the enemy" a couple times a year, I am just happy that I don't have to deal with her--because I can't and won't. Also to note is that when my DH visits/spends time with his kids, he gets drained, often disappointed, and is always happy to rush home. I imagine that is the same with yours. Can you wait this out and see if your DH just grows tired of toxic SD? Can he limit visits with her? I'm wondering if her BS will eventually drive him away, but I know you can't count on that.
Thank you.
I appreciate you sharing this, I can see parallels in our situations. Clearly I have no relationship with OSD either and thankfully (DH is 100% on board) she is not welcome in our home. I believe home is one's personal oasis and it must remain a safe place. I am curious, by "go to see her", does that mean a lunch or does your husband travel and stay with her? Does this involve him footing the bill? I am curious to understand how this works. (Please forgive me if my questions are too much.)
I think you have hit on a very valid point...the vision of these problematic adults as cute little girls, but not seeing them as they are today. I have pointed this out to DH...she has not been that cute little girl for 25 years! (SIL said she was a problem out of the womb! She will be 35 soon.) He knows, but it is tough and I understand that. I also understand that we need to see people for who they are and not for who we want them to be. Sometimes I think he is relieved, in a sense, that he no longer has contact with her like he used to. He has been weary of OSD for a long time. He has told me he did not like her in his home and he would hide valuables. (His pointed out the other day that his mother is not comfortable with OSD is her home either, "I need to remind her of that.") Like you mentioned, being in her presence is an emotional drain. OSD likes to guilt trip him with "you have deserted me" even though he has repeatedly told her the change in their father-daughter relationship is due strictly to HER behavior...both to me and to him. She doesn't have the capacity to understand that disrespecting me and our marriage is also disrespecting her father. (She actually does not acknowledge me as a person, or as her father's spouse.) I can't remember the name of the member here who mentioned something to the effect that we are the ones who offer a happy home, companionship, and all the rest that a marital relationship entails. That is such a great point! We have a great marriage, are compatable, and we are committed...in this I am blessed!
I am curious, by "go to see
Both skids live in another state. If we had lived in the same area, I would not be married--or married to someone else. So, yes, DH travels to see the skids. I think he stayed at SD's house once; otherwise, he stays in a hotel. And then, of course, he takes the whole crew out to dinner. He also goes grocery shopping with SD when visiting, so if SD cooks, it's because DH buys the food. Once the compound is established ( SD, SSIL, their kids, BM, and SSIL's parents have all moved to a rural area and intend to buy a large piece of property and build houses--because they are very cultish and have strange beliefs), DH said he will not be visiting onsite. He will have to meet SD and kids elsewhere. I don't know how that will work since SD keeps popping out a new baby every year.
Wow
Thank you for sharing, that is really interesting. Maybe this compound will mark a big change with the visiting? It sounds like to lot to tolerate for you.
A lot to tolerate would be
A lot to tolerate would be them coming here (it would be intolerable). I think SD has been to our home maybe 6 times in 18 years, and half of those visits were well over a decade ago (she was the most problematic skid). SS has probably been in our home twice as often, but his behavior strangely grew worse the older he got. I only went their way when SD got married. Anyway, this arrangement suits us well and has become the norm for us. I also like the occasional (rather, rare) "single woman" time when I can get it: quiet house, movies, spa visits, uninterrupted GF time. I can rent out my husband for surrogate dad skid visits! *ROFL*
I get this.
It would be intolerable for me as well to allow OSD in our personal space; I am so thankful this is not an issue. I'm glad your arrangement works for you, this is a win! It would also be a win to rent out your husband...one must pay for those spa visits!
My reading tells me that many times step kids become worse as adults. I find that really interesting and I wonder how functional they are in the rest of their life?
Lol. The compound/retreat!
My parents have proposed the same thing. Rags-Fork. Think Southfork ranch from the Dallas TV show.
Though that vision was never more than mom, dad, me and my family, my brother and his. No discussion of extended family or ILs.
I can see how someone would not be comfortable with that. My SIL being one who has made it clear that won't happen with my brother's participation. Fortunately she never got the opportunity to inject that tension because with us and them being Expats after mom and dad retired things just did not go in that direction. Mom and dad are Octogenarians (mom turns 80 in Dec, dad is pushing 82) so a property purchase and building a family retreat to everyone's standards and dreams would be more than any of us, including mom and dad, would want to put them and us through.
Interestingly mom and dad basically got the mini version of Rags-Fork. All 4 of their GKs consider my parents home their home. Even now that they are all in their 20s and 30s. Our son (nearly 32), niece (recently 30), nephew (28) and nephew (22) all consider the GP's home to be their family home. My SIL does not openly express distaste for that, but... it is tangible under the fabricated smile surface. The house is large, 6br, 4ba, in the woods without the acreage. So, everyone has their room and space, unless everyone is there in which case one of the GKs joins their parents in a room.
Can anyone legitimately and
Can anyone legitimately and truly love a toxic person? Even if they are your child?
I don't see how that is legitimately possible. Worse, I think that someone claiming that is the case is lying to themselves and everyone else.
IMHO and thoughts of course.
Maybe....
I think perhaps the answer may be that you love them, but you may not like them? I think a lot also boils down to guilt and obligation.
Unconditional love does not
Unconditional love does not mean unconditional acceptance of crap behavior.
IMHO addiction in an adult should not be allowed to impact the family relationships and lives of others.
The addicted adult pulls their head out and stops that crap or they are shunned and expunged from the family dynamic. Absulutely pain and heart break remains, but it has to be moved to the past ASAP along with the addict. It stays there fading.
For a decade and a half+ we (STalk) have watched the second, third, fourth, fifth, dozenth+ chance club over and over and over again destroy the lives of good people because the good people will not purge the toxic from their lives and insist on sarificing themselves to a forelorn hope for someone who gives a shit about no one including themselves.
Why let a characterless addict ruin any life other than their own?
My childhood BFF's eldest is a mentally ill hobo traipsing around Mexico, Central and South America. He is fluent in multiple languages, a graduate of a premier business school and a medically retired military veteran. His mom, dad, and brother finally had to let him go. He knocks on their door every X years, stays a few days to a few weeks, then drives back south in his buy it at the border for cash beater, crosses the border and walks about Latin America. They know that he is gone and know that at some point he will not be back and they more likely than not will never know what happened to him in the end.
They live a wonderful life. They have done everything they can for him, they have grieved, and they and their well son hug and welcome him when he shows up, and then get back to life. Not an addiction situation but a situation where he will not medicate per the Docs. He has a Military disability retirement, and is not a financial burden. Not that they would allow that even if he did not have his retirement. He would be institutionalized or he would be where ever he was without resources. They reached the point where he is loved but not allowed to ruin their lives.
They will not destroy their lives and the life of their younger adult son.
Addicts make choices and one of those choices has to include either fixing their shit or being gone. Like gone, gone. I put T-2 diabetics in a similar category though not in the gone gone club. Addiction and T-2 while diseases, are also choices.
So, they have a choice, be symptomatic, or not. If you choose symptomatic, you choose gone gone as an addict,
I know, not empathetic but poor choices should not ruin the lives of others when you are ostensibly an adult. If someone has a treatable disease and chooses to forego the treatment, specifically addiction, nope.
And... when I am out and about and dinner conversation in the surrounding background floats the word "diabetic" and I take a glance that the person is going on about their diabetes and they are herfing down a pile of pasta, I am not particularly accomodating to people who are killing themselves while complaining...... that they are killing themselves.
People who have a choice and continually choose to kill themselves I have no use or tolerance for. I do not have that choice. I don't get to stop my disease so people who have the blessing of choice, damned well better make the right one. Though suicide is a choice. For adults, they can choose what they wish, but they should not be allowed to suck others down the toilet with them.
Grrrrrrr!
And other angry noises.
All IMHO of course.
Ugh!
There are 2 ways to break the cycle of addiction...quitting or an early death. Scary but true. Sadly, addiction and mental illness go hand in hand. I feel for your BFF's family. That has got to be so hard to grieve someone while they are living. You bring up a good point with illnesses that people choose to ignore, it is often the same result...an early death. One has to wonder why they do not love themselves enough....
This is a tough one! I agree with what you are saying, if a person can not uphold the basic minimum requirements for a functional relationship (and you have clearly communicated those requirements to them) I understand letting go. Of course there will always be those who are able to make positive changes in order to restore the relationship and this is great. Of course there will always be those who are unable. These are the people who I am unable to give space in my life. I'm not cold and heartless, I just know my worth, my limits, and what I deserve. I deserve as good as I give...and I'm a giver.
When I think about family and friends I know, most lean towards dishonest harmony as opposed to honest conflict. Conflict opens the door for growth. Most people are not comfortable with conflict and remain stuck. Why is this? It's not 'easy', it's 'uncomfortable', they are scared of others' reactions, etc. So they will put up with nonsense to keep the peace. It's not really peace though.
Agree 100%
I completely agree with you both Trudie & Rags. Sometimes we gotta cut ties with people who just cannot help themselves and we gotta refuse to be dragged down with them. Rags, would you say that goes with toxic people too? Because in my dictionary, that does. Anyone who is a self-inflicting toxic person, does not IMO deserve sympathy... The problem (I think) is that there are many adults who aren't capable of taking responsibilities of their own actions, perhaps due to their parents being soft when they were young? Parents never holding them accountable? I don't know. But I know many adults who always act like as if bad things just happen to them, when in fact, they are the ones who started doing those bad things and cannot help themselves from doing it. Most often it is also a self-perpetuating cycle. I believe as adults we all have a choice, we are all capable of helping ourselves and strive to be better. Most particularly if we live in a first-world country and wasn't brought up in poverty. Everybody has a choice.
And your last paragraph, Trudie, regarding dishonest harmony, is so spot on. 100% I agree with that. My in-laws' family is EXACTLY like that. My MIL once posted on Facebook something like, 'A family doesn't have to be perfect, but they just have to be together'. No, they don't have to be together if they hate each other. She LOVES the idea of a family being together, that picture-perfect family. DH and I often say that my MIL just wants 'cardboard cutouts' people in her life and events. She would be so very devastated if my SDs can't make it, but the thing is, even when they do come along and make it, most of the time my in-laws' family wouldn't even talk to them. The 2 of them often end up sitting on a corner talking to themselves or talking to us, and no one will really come and talk to them (maybe they also don't want to socialise much, but whatever). My MIL also has this unreasonable expectation that you should ALWAYS want to attend a family gathering, no matter how you feel or how busy you are, she doesn't care. Most of the time I end up attending it even though I don't feel like going, just to avoid having to have an excuse. And my DH is so anti-confrontational, he has trouble drawing boundaries. And given they're my in-laws, I don't feel like being confrontational to them, so I just keep them at arm's length most of the time. My ILs are also terrible at drawing boundaries, they will say yes to doing something even though they don't want to, and after they do it, they just complain and sook. I think my DH gets his anti-confrontational behaviours from them, and he is also poor at drawing boundaries because of them. For me, if I don't want to do something, I will just say no, I'm not doing that.
With my family, I can be more honest. If I don't feel like attending, I won't come. If I don't feel like visiting, I won't come. And they don't guilt-trip me like my ILs.
I completely understand your comment about the 'dishonest harmony', and that is just exactly it. That's how my ILs are. I think that it is so unhealthy. And I personally think that once your job as a parent is finished and you've raised your kid/s to the age of 18, then the relationship should be two-way and everyone in it should show respect for one another. There is no longer an obligation to support and/or tolerate one another if there is no mutual respect. I have seen so many families breaking apart because of this lack of respect. I personally don't quite value family as much as other people do, I value my moral standards, self-respect and dignity more than anything, and I won't ever let other people tell me otherwise, whether they are family or not. I think that doesn't always make sense to other people, but I think many people here get it. Thank Pete.
I value my moral standards,
THIS!!! Then we get the "how dare you!" (normally nonverbal) reaction(s). No. How dare YOU, mf!
Thank you all also for bringing up phony civility and dishonest harmony. Perfect descriptions of what so many of us have experienced.
YEP
Phony civility and dishonest harmony are definitely my favourite words now. LOL
And yeah, 100% with that 'how dare you?'
As adults, I strongly believe we all have choices about who we keep in our circle. Anyone who is disrespectful, toxic and manipulative are definitely not ones to be kept. There's the saying 'you can choose your friends but you can't choose your family' is somewhat true, but you can still choose whether that family (member) is staying or going. IMHO I would never feel guilty for cutting out family member/s who are disrespectful, toxic and manipulative... Life is too short to be wasting your energy worrying about people like that, no?
Permissive parenting...
...I think this is what you are describing in your first paragraph. The horrible thing is that one does not often realize it until it is too late. In our efforts to be 'nice' and make things easier on our kids, sometimes we create monsters who think the world owes them a living and they have a rude awakening upon entering the workforce and 'adulting". This is a fascinating topic of research that I have dabbled in.
Your MIL's views are pretty common. It is understandable that you would keep them at arm's length. I think about my mom's relationship with her MIL, they truly loved each other. My mom always said that grandma was more of a mother to her than her own mother. They had mutual respect and a true friendship. THAT is what I would like to have with my MIL, I don't think she has the capacity for that though. So, like you I keep her at arm's length and am respectufully polite. Do you think that the younger generation is changing and are more true to themselves? I really hope so!
Facebook! I am not a fan! Often it is a highlight reel and not a true depiction of one's life; the mushy posts are what people wish their lives really were and what they want others to believe. My therapist and I have talked about this; she has some really interesting observations. If you are living well and are truly happy, is it really necessary to broadcast? I understand that for some it is. I would rather move quietly through life, why give others the opportunity to want to bring you down? Jealousy is an awful beast.
Agreed! Once adulthood is reached, 'adult' expectations should come into play. I do think people here 'get it'! It is nice to discuss things with people who understand, it somehow makes the issues more tolerable and I now realize I am not alone. I am so thankful for this community...my heartfelt gratitude to you all!
Good Insight Again
Good insight again, Trudie, I have never heard of permissive parenting, but you learn something everyday! I find that these younger generations (my SDs generation) are the worst in terms of suffering from permissive parenting. Maybe not all of them, but a majority of them certainly do.
Parents are adopting the 'gentle parenting method' and whilst there are good aspects of it, I find that it really blurs the lines of the roles of parents. I don't believe it is a parent's job to be their child's best friend. It is a parent's job to bring up their child up to be a decent human being in society, so if they are out of line, it is a parent's job to talk them through what they did wrong, and apply consequences as required. Parents these days resist from applying consequences or even pressures on their children, they think that just giving them heaps and heaps of unconditional love and attention will make their children better people. BM used to say to DH to not pressure SD18 in her study for fear of her killing herself (I don't know where she's got that idea from because SD18 never appeared to be depressed or has any other mental health issues). I personally think that certain expectations, rules and common human decencies should be expected of children who are age-appropriate. SD18 was in HS and wanted to do engineering, so we encouraged her to study and aim high and we also enrolled her in some tutoring programs (with her agreeance). We would remind her to study whenever she stayed with us but it wasn't like we were overbearing or anything. Apparently BM thought it was too much. Whatever.
Perhaps your expectation of how your relationship with your MIL should be really set you up for failure, if that makes sense. Because your mum had a great relationship with her MIL, you thought that maybe you'd have the same. But unfortunately most MILs don't get along that well with their DILs, so I personally am just glad that at least my MIL doesn't absolutely loathe me LOL. My MIL is lovely in many aspects; she was weary at the start but she has now grown to accept me, but her expectations of what a family unit should be can be quite overbearing and tiring at times. And my DH comes from a big family so there are lots of mouths and gossips. They are all OK at arm's length and I intend to do just that, be nice to everyone, keep it a little on the superficial side, talk as necessary, but not getting too close to anyone and risk jeopardising any of the relationships there. I have never voiced what I think of my SDs to them, and I personally don't think that MIL wants me to bitch about her granddaughters anyway. I don't quite have any expectations of my DH's family besides to just be courteous, so I'm generally fine with being arm's length to them. The only need I have to be close with anyone is only with my DH (is that a little sad? LOL).
I'm on Facebook quite a bit, I don't post much but only share other people's posts... I agree that you don't really need to share anything there, and of course it is all only a 'face'.
Same as you, I'm very glad to have found this forum. It has been very helpful and it is good to know that I'm not the only one who feels that way and that I'm not a stepmonster for the things that I have boundaries with...!
Why?
Why do MILs not get along with their DILs? This is a choice. It's a choice I will not choose, I love my son too much to create difficulties in his life...his girlfriend makes it easy, she is so sweet. As for me, I am at the point now where I do not expect anything different. I make sure to wear a smile, always act polite and respectful, and keep them at arm's length. When it's all said and done, I am the one who got the prize...my husband! And I know he feels the same way! In spite of all the familial poo, we are blessed and for this I am thankful!
Oh yes. THe facade of the
Oh yes. THe facade of the happy quality family when that family is anything but.....
The facade is just a polished turd. They polish, polish, and polish some more. They get nothing more than a shiney pile of shit as their dishonestly harmonic "happy quality family".
Brilliant stuff Trudie. I plan on adopting it liberally. Thanks for the Dishonest Harmony Vs the Honest Conflict concept. Great stuff for sure.
Oh no...
...I fear I am surrounded by 'polished turds'! Thank you, sometimes one needs a good laugh!
Dishonest Harmony
What a great way to describe the phony civility that often exists in step relationships.
I've lived it, and will never choose that soul sucking path again.
Never.
Yes!
Honest conflict all the way!
I completely agree with your position on this.
Your statement (below) is the critical success factor. Though I did change one element. Earned and require replacing deserve.
I'm not cold and heartless, I just know my worth, my limits, and what I have earned and require
Deserve is IMHO akin to entitled and both deserve and entitled lately tend to be words usurped by those who have not earned what it is they are claiming to deserve or that they are claiming to be entitled to.
Yes!
Thank you, this is powerful and a great reminder! Interesting how one word can have such an impact in the meaning and perception of a statement.
Lol. I heard what you meant.
When people of quality reference deserve and entitled it means something entirely different than when those words are used by people who are not of quality.
Just a balance point, not a judgement. Okay, it is a judgement. Far be it from me to prevaricate that I am judgemental.
I knew of OSD's issues and
I knew of OSD's issues and was prepared to love her. How could I not? She's my husband's daughter.
Naivete and the Hope-ium pipe often ascribe some mythical love to people entirely unworthy of it. They don't earn it. No one should waste anything of themselves on them. Regardless of whose spawn they are or whose family they may be.
Sadly, far too many parents sacrifice their own lives on kids who are beyond salvage and many Sparents sacrifice themselves on the altar of Sparental martyrdom to a mates failed family and failed family progeny in a forelorn hope that if only.........
I do not recommend it for either the BPs of these kinds of people and for sure do not recommend it for the next mate of someone who is a retread from a failed family marriage. Unless... the new mate has very strong boundaries with their own new mate and clear, firmly defined and defended standards of behavior for any kids in the mix (yours, mine, or ours kids), any Xs on either side, any and all ILs with zero tolerance for any crap from anyone else in the mix.
Anything less, is far more likely than not to allow and even facilitate a bunch of crap no one wants to experience.
IMHO of course.
Agreed!
So interesting that you would bring this up! I feel silly about my original aspirations as I have now learned otherwise. I initially was loving, even when she was dishing up nonsense. Next, I acted not loving, but neutral...distant, but polite. After OSD's latest antics I will be nothing. I'm done...and it's my nature to be REALLY DONE when I'm done...as in OVERDONE! I am not willing to practice dishonest harmony, especially for a person who lacks intellectual and emotional intelligence. Nope...peace out!
Agreed!
So interesting that you would bring this up! I feel silly about my original aspirations as I have now learned otherwise. I initially was loving, even when she was dishing up nonsense. Next, I acted not loving, but neutral...distant, but polite. After OSD's latest antics I will be nothing. I'm done...and it's my nature to be REALLY DONE when I'm done...as in OVERDONE! I am not willing to practice dishonest harmony, especially for a person who lacks intellectual and emotional intelligence. Nope...peace out!