DD15 does not want to go on vacation with ex-H
My ex-H has been trying to take our kids on vacation for the last year. The problem is, he doesn't ever ask for input from them including timing. First he booked the trip (Costa Rica) for last August - DD20 and DS18 were a week out from going to college (and his freshman year) and needed the time to get ready, and DD15 was starting high school swim season for her freshman year. So he pays the ticket change penalty and switches to the week of Thanksgiving - that doesn't work for the kids either. Next change is to this June. My older two each have internships and can't go (and don't want to).
DD15 does not want to go alone with him - nothing creepy just that they have very little relationship. My ex-H moved away when we got divorced and has come back to visit a lot meaning he wastes a lot of money and takes her (them) out to lunch and watches her swim meets. Yes, he is trying, in his very limited capacity as a father. He does not know how to connect with her, nor my son, and he has largely destroyed his relationship with oldest DD as it's tough to watch the chaotic way he lives his life and the stupid self-sabotaging choices he makes (not substance abuse or anything like that, just keeps moving to different states, 8+ jobs, a new girlfriend every 3 months, and he's driven himself into debt). He is not a fun person - she says it is awkward and they have nothing to talk about. I can certainly relate to that - I was married to him for 18 years!
And yes, I have my reservations about it even if she wanted to go, seeing as he is not the man I divorced in 2013 and has really changed for the worse - at the time we at least could have mutual respect and be amicable. I too have lost all respect for him; the last straw when he cashed out DD15's college account with the promise he will still pay it. He has no money and can barely pay his half of the older kids' living expenses (they have prepaid tuition packages bought when they were babies, which has worked out great - too bad DD15's is gone 
) So I really don't trust his judgment in general.
Yet, he is the father of my kids and as furious and disgusted as I am that no doubt I will be paying DD's entire college, ex-H would be crushed if he knows she doesn't want to go. He's that clueless that he doesn't seem to notice he has just about zero relationship with any of them and that it is his own fault (and they are all much closer to DH their stepdad). It doesn't seem to be a good option to force her to go - I cannot do that nor would I want to. Should I play the role of evil bitch ex-wife and say I won't allow it, so that instead of being hurt that DD doesn't want to go he can be pissed off at me?
Why are you protecting her
Why are you protecting her from a father she will have to manage the rest of her life???
No, I would advocate honesty
No, I would advocate honesty - DD15 is old enough to tell him herself that she doesn't want to go alone with him - but if she doesn't want to then you should - I imagine she probably might have gone if her brother and sister had been going also? It's bizarre that he didn't check dates were convenient for ALL the kids before booking - who even behaves like that? As things are he's a relative stranger to her and I don't blame her not wanting to go on holiday with him.
But he’s still her father
And as we know here, fathers still deserve a relationship with their kids if they are trying. A parent is still a parent. The custodial parents responsibility is to facilitate the relationship - not solve perceived problems between a mid teenaged daughter and her dad nor keep the kid from her dad.
I wholeheartedly agree that DD should tell her dad if she doesn't want to go, and hopefully start an honest dialogue (and I agree - who just sets vacation dates then goes through so many changes/fees?)
But in the end, he is trying to see his kids, no matter how wrong headed he is. The BM clearly has resentment and disdain towards him, and this could also be rubbing off - even if she's trying to hide it- on DD.
So If her relationship with her father truly bothers DD, then she should talk to him. Not BM.
But who knows? My dad isn't a warm and fuzzy guy, but the few trips I took with him as an adult - even though we have very little in common - have been great in helping us be closer.
It's up to the 15 yr old
It's up to the 15 yr old whether she wants a relationship with her father or not? Nobody "deserves" a relationship with anyone else - it has to be a mutual thing surely. I agree it's the custodial parent's job to facilitate where possible. But my feeling about this particular situation is that who would want to go on holiday, alone, with a parent they've hardly seen in their growing up years? I know I wouldn't have wanted to. A better approach would be for the father to come and stay in the area for a week and have a few outings with his daughter, if he wants to get to know her better.
That’s what I was thinking..
That’s what I was thinking.. why not scrap the holiday and spend a week in town with DD15 instead?
I can’t understand why he’d book the holidays without checking with any of the kids first... I feel anxious just thinking about how much money he’s lost on this already.
Yes I can agree to him visiting her at home
But I'm wondering if there isn't some parental alienation based on the moms disdain for the father.
I don't see a problem with DD working through her relationahip with her father on her own without the BMs involvement. Certainly she can refuse to have a relationship with whomever she wants, but the dad here is trying in his own fashion.
Im not saying DD has to go. But she should be talking to her father about it, not the BM.
Yes, in past blogs, she was
Yes, in past blogs, she was allowing the child to refuse to see her father for a quick dinner, after he drove for 12 hours to see her swim meet because DD wanted to be with friends. There is definitely not a lot of support for their relationship and the kid knows it (as they always do). He hasn't been FOTY but he's tried to keep a relationship with her and that gets dismissed.
You are right, SHE should make the decision and talk to her father - without her mother's input.
Nope, he did this on his own
My ex-H was never much of a dad to her. He barely noticed her existence until she was 8, at which point we divorced and he chose to move out of state. My daughter is not refusing a relationship with him. I have always encouraged her and my other kids to tell their dad what's going on in their lives and to include him as much as possible. There is a big difference between keeping contact and seeing him for an afternoon, and spending a week in Costa Rica with him alone. I do have a problem with trusting him as well. The decisions he has made in particular the last 2 years, have made me question his judgment in general.
And believe it or not, I am not protecting my daughter from having to have a difficult conversation. I'm protecting him from that pain, because he has been suicidal for years and I truly believe that conversation would devastate him.
15 is old enough to decide if
15 is old enough to decide if she wants to go or not.
let her handle it and stay out of it. Maybe dad will let her bring a friend?
i Do get a feeling from reading your post that you don’t want her to go and maybe she knows that....
married for 18 years? But your kids are closer to your new husband? How does that work? I’m curios because my exH (married 15 years)thinks the same about my DD17 that she’s closer to his new wife of 1 year....but he wants that to be the reality so that’s what he manipulates my dd into thinking.
yes they are closer to stepdad
As I mentioned above, my ex-H never had a relationship with either my DD15 or DS18 even before we were divorced. DD20 was a different story. My DH and I have been together 5 1/2 years. So youngest DD was 10 when she met him, over 33% of her life (and 50% of which she probably has memories). She has grown very close to him - he is a great Dad of 4 and having another little girl was very natural to him. DH was, and continues to be respectful of the importance of contact with their father. But it was natural to fill a gap where it existed, and it was not immediate. I would agree that a girl who meets her stepmom at 16, in one year, can't really be that close to her. For my daughter, DH was the one who took her to Home Depot and Michael's craft store then got out his power saw and spent the day with her cutting wood and gluing things for her school Latin project. DH rushed to Ulta Beauty one Sunday afternoon because DD had to have the 'sister James' makeup palate (whatever that is LOL) that was the thing for middle school girls. He patiently helps with homework and endures geometry tantrums, she wants to go grocery shopping with him every weekend, learned the joys (which I don't get) of watching Sunday football, and many more things I could continue on about. The point is, my ex-H never did any of those things, nor with DS. So yes, my daughter is much closer to her stepdad. She barely knows her father, and I don't blame her for not wanting to spend a week with him when one meal is uncomfortable.
As I've mentioned previously
As I've mentioned previously when you've asked about what you and your DD should do in these situations, there is a lot of room for compromise.
DD should be made to set aside time with her father. No, he shouldn't get priority when he slips in and out so easily, but she needs to find a long weekend (Friday-Monday) this summer where she goes with him somewhere. Whether it's a weekend visit at his home or a trip to Disney World, doesn't matter. She needs to come up with a few things she would enjoy and be prepared to present those to her father. She needs to be taught how to tell her dad "sorry, that makes me uncomfortable, but what if we tried this instead?"
And you, as Mom, contact your ex and prepare him for this conversation. Let him know that you won't force her to go with him out of the country for a week, but you do expect her to set aside time for him. He'll need to have that tough talk about what is acceptable with her, but it won't be a week in Cancun so he better just put that out of his head now.
If he is insistent that it's his way or no way, that's on him. But for the sake of your daughter, who will have to grapple with the man you chose for her father for the rest of her life, you need to help build the bridge between them. You don't need to protect DD; you just need to walk beside her as she navigates the situation you helped put her in by choosing your ex as the father of your children.
If only compromise was an option with him...
You are so right. If he were a normal person. He is like a little kid - it's his way or he's taking his toys and going home. If things don't go his way, it's 'forget it! I give up'. Can't do much with that.
I have encouraged them to make time for him, to text him often just to say hi and let him know they are thinking of him, to include them in their lives as much as possible. He does not make this easy.
How can you say this? The
How can you say this? The man has re-booked this vacation 3 times to appease your seemingly spoiled kids? You and your kids don't seem to make it easy either. I remember your prior posts. I have no doubt there is PAS going on here.
I think i am going to put a
I think i am going to put a bit of a different view out there.
I think the girl should go on this trip with her dad. Yes.. I know she might think it's awkward.. and he doesn't know how to connect with her.. But OP says he does come to see her and go to her swim meets.. it appears he is TRYING to be involved in her life. Perhaps a week together without outside influences. (family.. friends.. other commitments) might provide them some time to get past the awkwardness they experience because they haven't spent more than a few hours together at a time. They are still at that stage because they haven't had the time together to forge common ground.
I wouldn't advocate this if you feel your EX is abusive.. or addicted.. or likely to engage in dangerous behaviors or not able to ensure she is safe (passing out drunk etc..)
But, allowing the 15 yo to hid behind OP's figurative skirt from her father.. who she hasn't had time to really learn about.. I think that's wrong.
It's one week. It's a chance for the two of them to potentially have a bond that they can build a better more mature parent child relationship on. Worst case scenario? DD15 has a crappy time.. and refuses to do this ever again. But.. maybe moving her out of her comfort zone is a good way to promote emotional growth as she enters adulthood?
I so so so so so agree.
I so so so so so agree.
Tell your daughter to give
Tell your daughter to give her dad this shot. Maybe one on one they will finally be able to connect and bond. If she doesn't go, she won't know. The trip is paid for, just go. It is one week of her life but the chance to make a major impact for the rest of her life with the relationship she has with her dad.
15 yr olds do not get to make adult decisions. Otherwise they could vote, drive, sign contracts, etc- they have short term brains. Even the smart ones are pretty dumb at 15.
I think the 15 year old
I think the 15 year old should be encouraged to speak to her father, even if it’s to tell him she doesn’t want to go (as long as she’s not ‘scared’ of him).
I think you should ask her again why she doesn’t want to go.
There are a lot of kids that would like to go on holiday and ‘be bored’ with their parents.
I never particularly got on with my mum ( I grew up mainly in a stepfamily environment), I went on holiday with her once when I was 18 years old, she was a completely different person on holiday (she was ‘nice’). - I still don’t get on with her now though.
Sue the POS for stealing the
Sue the POS for stealing the 15yo's college fund. Nail him criminally and civilly with penalties and interest. He wil have to pay for a defense so show him destitution.
POS people should get zero quarter regardless of who they are.
SMH
Thanks Rags!
I will definitely take him to court over the college fund if he indicates he cannot pay, when she starts her college application process. We will see if anything changes in the next 2 years, or if he is even able to continue paying for DD20/DS18. Month by month we never know. But, we each pay the kids directly. It will take a lot for him to face our kids and say he cannot pay anymore, at which point I will have them each contribute a token $2000 per year and I'll pay the rest. If the math doesn't work for him, the math doesn't work. At some point I'm sure they stop giving you credit (would not know...I don't live like that).
We have never been to court except to file our pro se divorce, but I will not let this go. And as long as I'm going for the college fund, there are tens of thousands for kids' medical, swimming, ACT tutors, college applications, dental, etc. Of course it will probably be the case of trying to get blood from a rock, but there is not a chance I'll not hold him accountable. He fully meant it when he said he'd still pay; however, he is one of those guys who thinks good intentions actually count for something when actions say otherwise. Thankfully I am not married to him anymore!!
Your kids won the mom lottery
Your kids won the mom lottery and are fortunate to have you.
As for the dad lottery.......
*unknw*
"And as long as I'm going for
"And as long as I'm going for the college fund, there are tens of thousands for kids' medical, swimming, ACT tutors, college applications, dental, etc.:" Yikes, did he not pay CS for the kids?
CS but not shared expenses
He has paid child support but not the kids expenses he is supposed to split. I will likely let this go - I'm not someone who is going to run to court nor vindictive towards him over that. It is the stolen college fund I have a problem with. If he pays for her college tuition as he *intends* I'm ok. Even if I pay up front and he pays me back over time. But I will not let it go that he stole this money. My point was if it came to me having to take legal action on this, might as well go for everything. I won't know for a couple of years.
Maybe I’m reading all this
Maybe I’m reading all this wrong....but you want money from him but don’t really want your kids around him?
sounds like BM here......I need money money money but please stay away from the kids as much as possible.
thank you :-)
They won the stepdad lottery too! As did your stepson/son!
You said he's been suicidal
You said he's been suicidal for years, does that mean he has a mental illness? Some of the things you've mentioned lead me to believe he has serious issues that maybe aren't dealt with properly? If that's the case, then I do understand your hesitation in sending her on a trip out of the mainland with her father.
Alienation is such a problem on these boards, its hard to see the struggle with protection over PAS. I do wonder at your struggle with protecting him from his bed that he made with the his kids and holding him accountable for the theft of the college funds. How much do the kids really understand about their father? I do think that your daughter does need to be the one to tell her dad what she wants. You might want to have that conversation with her to help her figure out how to say it or find a therapist to help her handle her father. It might be better to have a therapist do it, your anger over the money might get in the way even if you say it won't .
Ex-H has depression, yes
Gimlet - thank you for sharing your story. Congratulations on raising a great daughter in spite of a challenging situation. You are obviously a great Mom
And we are working on the compromise situation - much to my surprise, ex-H mentioned something about a weekend in NY with DD. YES! I encouraged her to do that. I am not sure how he will pay - I told her that I will give her money to "take" her dad out for a nice dinner one of the nights. I am surprised because ex-H sees the world in black and white - to him compromise it not really a concept. So we will see what happens.
Yes, he has depression and is definitely a narcissist/disordered in some way. He has gotten way worse over the years. He is not even close to the man I married all those years ago. There were definitely signs back then, but hindsight is 20/20 of course. I was a lot smarter the second time in choosing DH - he is the most mentally stable, happy and healthy person I have ever met. Ex-H is so bad that he doesn't see there is a problem. He does not recognize patterns or admit that his unacknowledged issues cost him his family and several other relationships after that. My kids are fully aware of his issues - you can't miss it. I never made excuses for him - he was constantly raging at the kids over the dumbest things - I always told them that is his problem not yours. If that makes me PAS Mom (that was when we were still married) so be it. Hell if I was going to allow my kids to be gaslighted or think it is ok to be treated disrespectfully at best, and verbally abused at worst.
I agree they have to find their way with him - they can take him on a limited basis generally as a team (my three have always been a team
). DD15 just doesn't enjoy spending time with him - she is very uncomfortable. However, they all have learned (from me) that he is still their father and they should not just write him off - for example they always get him Fathers Day/Birthday gifts and are very thoughtful in general. They are nice kids. But I'm not going to tell DD her feelings are wrong. Honestly I find myself wanting to protect HIM from the truth - I always encourage them to have a direct conversation whether with a friend, teacher, and their father. I just don't think ex-H could take it if he realized how DD15 feels. Your advice is very good though - I will encourage her to be direct with him about what activities she would like to do for example just not hey Dad I'd really rather spend time with anyone but you - yikes...
A 20yo and an 18yo have aged
A 20yo and an 18yo have aged out from the visitation element of a CO. While the NCP, depending on the State where the CO is active, may still be on the hook for CS.
A 15yo... gets no say. It is dad's time, the 15yo goes as the CO stipulates... whether the 15yo wants to go or not.
My SS graduated from HS at 17 and went on his last CO'd SpermLand visitation after graduation and before his 18th birthday. He called and asked us if he could stay for and additional two weeks. He was not yet 18. My DW could have told him no and that he had to return as scheduled. Instead, she told him that it was his choice.
We were concerned he would buy into their crap and stay in SpermLand after his 18th birthday so my DW did a road trip with her brother to SpermLand to be their on his birthday and more importantly the day after which was when he was supposed to come home. I flew in the day after she recovered the kid and we had a family road trip back home.
SS was very sullen on that road trip for the first couple of days. He had a lot on his mind. He had not made any applications to college, he had no idea what he wanted to do and ..... he had an idea that we had planned the road trip to make sure he came home after his final visiation. Which was not entirely true. We had planned it so that he would have to talk to his mom face to face if he had chosen to stay rather than getting to email her, text her or do it over the phone.
When he asked us about it a couple of days into our road trip/vacation we told him that mostly we wanted a family vacaction together but that we wanted to make sure that his mom was there so he could have a talk with her if he had chosen to not return home. Another half day of sullen silence and he told us "You know, I know where my home is and who my family is. I don't know what I want to do with my life but I know that you are my home base and if I need to talk about things, you will be there to give me your opinions."
8mos later he enlisted in the USAF. Next month will be his 9th service anniversary with the USAF.
When he turned 18 he could have chosen to visit his SpermClan as often as he wanted to, or even to move there. Interestingly he made no effort to visit with them and they have made no effort to engage with him.
Sad really. They were more interested in manipulating and being toxic than they ever were in having a relationship with him. Once they had zero control, they wrote him off. Fortuneatly, he reciprocated and has gone on to a successful life far more notable then the entire history of the SpermClan.
To this day I advise SS to make an effort to maintain contact with them. When we visit my IL clan and he goes with us, he will give them half a day. but sees them only about once every 4-5 years. They make no effort.