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OT/ Do you feel that things are changing for woman?

queensway's picture

For weeks now everyday more and more woman are coming out with their stories about sexual harassment. It is shocking to me how many men got away with this for so long. Woman lost jobs for speaking out against them. Woman lost their self esteem while holding on to jobs they needed. My hope is that this is a real turning point for woman. What do you think? Am I being to optimistic.

Comments

BethAnne's picture

I hope so but changing systematic and endemic problems does not happen in weeks. Changing behaviors and attitudes of multiple generations of people will not take weeks. We will see how this plays out and what lasting changes there are, as with all things there will be small token changes but not as much as the media will hype.

princessmofo's picture

As good as all this has been to draw into light the climate of sexual harassment, I still feel we have years and years of work on our hands. This behavior is nothing new. Many men in power have exploited their subordinates, both men and women, for years. I can personally attest to at least six different occasions over the years, with different employers, where I was subjected to sexual harassment. The problem is this has become so commonplace that many people still take a "ah, who cares" approach to it. It's sad, but I like to think that perhaps there is hope.

Merry's picture

I do hope this is a change, and that more women will come forward and more women will stand up to harassment and assault. Women have learned to deal with the "boys will be boys" attitudes and behaviors, feeling bad about ourselves while men laughed at the "jokes" they made and bragged about their real or imagined sexual prowess.

I hope we're seeing a turning point in this, hope it's not just another news cycle.

Dovina's picture

It is a turning point for women. I think more women feel stronger to stand up and report sexual harassment.
Men and women in power for so long have abused this power to torment others. IMO people in power, are seeing that repercussions can and will happen. This will keep some awful behaviors in check. Lets hope anyways.

witch.hazel's picture

I really hope so. An example is being made of these men now that they've found out they may have gotten away with it for years, but that time is over. People are encouraging others to speak out, and that probably has many sexual abusers who have not been outed yet in a state of fear and worry. I hope so ... and in the future men will need to think twice before engaging in sexual abuse or harassment.

What I want next is equal pay in the workplace.

queensway's picture

Thanks ladies for your comments on this matter. I was just wondering what you all thought. Seems like we are all hoping for a change. It is long over due IMO.

Merry's picture

I agree with this. I will add that women haven't spoken up because they haven't been heard or believed. The woman somehow caused the unwanted attention by what she wore, where she was, or she must have been flirting, or she must have been drinking, or she was asking for it. Or, simply she can't take a joke. Victim blaming at its finest. And women, at least my generation of women, were taught how to deal with it internally and told to keep quiet because that's just the way things are. Men's sexually charged behavior has been dismissed for centuries. I hope that door is finally closing.

There is safety in numbers. And even in numbers, these women are still being ridiculed in some sectors with the very things I mentioned.

ProbablyAlreadyInsane's picture

Something else you can add in is that some women genuinely feel like it's their fault or they're the ones that did something. I know in a LOT of cultures it's taboo for that to happen... So then when something does happen it leaves the woman/girl feeling ashamed with themselves... Or like they're the ones who have done something wrong.

I know a while back a woman was kidnapped and raped for MONTHS... I read a book she wrote years later and something she mentioned was that the hardest thing for her was she felt dirty, and like it was her fault and she was the one who had done something wrong... She didn't talk about all of it for a while because she had so much inner conflict!

However one not to mention, is as always there are probably some narcissists out there claiming it just for the attention... Which ruins it for everyone else.

ESMOD's picture

I am 52 and have seen a lot of change during my lifetime. societal norms and accepted practices have changed quite a bit.

I also am a bit pragmatic in my view and get a little uncomfortable when some people start equating relatively minor interactions with flat out rape. There are also certain factors that can cause all sorts of shades of gray and in many cases, things aren't going to fit all neatly into one box or another. Certain actions or behavior may be accepted under certain circumstances but wrong in others.

Certainly the fact that when I was 16 and working in a restaurant, my 24 year old boss hitting on me and me dating him could have been viewed by some as an adult in a position of power taking advantage of a 16 year old "child". To be honest, I didn't feel victimized at the time. I didn't feel pressured or that the age range was somehow out of bounds. In hindsight... dating your subordinate and an underage one at that was probably unwise and I guess there is something that could be a bit off about him doing that (though we were living in europe on an army base, so the number of eligible girls for him to date was probably smaller).

Or maybe it was situations where I was treated differently by my management.. like the time my counterpart was given a bigger raise because "he was married an had a family".. Or other times where biases that resulted in my not getting promotions as quickly etc.. as other men in my position had. Now this is anecdotal of course and perhapse they deserved it more, but I never had kids so you can't blame the issue of "women take time off for families so businesses take that into account".

I have certainly had to deal with men who seem to not look above my chin in the workplace or seem to spend more time "chatting" with me than they seem to do with other coworkers..

So, while I have seen it and experienced it, I still feel that for the most part, I have not had my professional life defined by abuses though I have had my own experiences with it at work and in my personal life.

I do to a certain extent see some of that goes on as being dependent on the power dynamic, the amount of willingness for the recipient to be the object of attention or affection.. and so many other things. Biologically, men are wired to pursue women and generally more to pursue multiple women. Women are wired to prefer men who will stick around and provide for them and the resultant offspring. Do those aspects of our makeup disappear when we enter the door to work? I think that over time, we have gotten better at recognizing what is acceptable "at work" behavior. That doesn't change the fact that people will still interact at work and that leaves open the possibility of attractions and all the other messy human emotions.

I think what is more striking about what is coming out now is the tacit approval so many men had from both men and women to be PREDATORY... which goes well beyond telling someone you like their dress or that you like their new hair cut.

The casting couch is not a new phenomenon.. neither is the "gold digger" that will on the other end of the spectrum use their assets to get what they want. And, in between there are all sorts of variations that go from being asked out unwantedly to actually physically assaulted without your permission. (the bartender that grabbed my chest while we were taking pictures at spring break for example).

So, do some women "ask for it".. hate to blame the victim, but I DO see many women who dress in ways that I would say are very provocative in a work environment. Are they asking to be abused? maybe not, but they certainly hope to be noticed I am guessing. If not, perhaps wearing a skirt longer than your finger tips and looser than a 2nd skin might be better mmmkay? If you look in the mirror before work and say "I look hot".. change. Yes, I know even women who dress modestly have issues, but if you are looking for that attention, you just might get it in ways you are not expecting. Doesn't make it right.. but it may be predictable.

So, I can see how sometimes people are confused by signals and misunderstandings erupt. But, in many of the more egregious cases out there.. it seems that a lot of men are tone deaf to the fact that if they are in a position of power over someone and they ask that person on a date.. or for a "favor" that the person may acquiesces because they feel intimidated or because they feel they will lose their job etc.. if they don't do it.

I think in corporate america, we have a bit better oversight in many cases with more training and awareness of these pitfalls. I guess the media and entertainment folks are a bit behind on that front.

strugglingSM's picture

I hope that highlighting the fact that this is a systemic issue will be the first step to change. My one concern is that I think it's easy to make all of these things about individuals (e.g. Weinstein, Spacey, Moore, etc) and in doing so, overlook the broader systemic issue.

I suspect there are a lot of men out there who are all too happy to point fingers at the most egregious cases and say "look at them, I'm not like them", but then still make lewd or derogatory comments towards their female coworkers or to subtly undermine the women around them because they feel rejected or threatened. I suspect there are still a lot of men who think to themselves "it was just a joke" or "I didn't mean it that way" or "this is all a misunderstanding" and if those beliefs are allowed to persist, I fear nothing will really change and once all the initial shock and horror has blown over, more men will go back to crossing the line from joking to harassment to assault.

Acratopotes's picture

I'm waiting for the men to come forward for the same issues.....

We had a woman in the office who was guilty of this, making crude comments etc.... but then it was fine..... but if the roles where reversed it would've been an issue?

I'm sorry but things seems to be going out of hand now, I'm convinced that some of these woman are making an issue of nothing, there was the issue with Adam Sandler, who's a touching person, when he talked to a woman he touched her knee, immediately every one screamed sexual harassment and this lady, who's knee it was, laughed and said WTF I did not feel uncomfortable, it's the way he is stop this crap....

I had a boss, if he talked to you he had to touch your arm, shoulder, he would come and stand next to you at your desk and sort of rested his arm around your shoulders, I never felt any danger, or uncomfortable with him doing this, thus to me it's not sexual harassment. I know men , who becomes very touchy feely after the third drink, in SO's family who will try and pinch you.... or grab your boob, he's brother did it once and I smacked the living shit out of him, in front of every one..... now he leaves me alone and calls me a bitch, I don't care, keep your paws off me, I'm not your wife... I have a contractor that gives me the creeps just by the way he looks at woman, but if he looks at my boobs instead of my face, I will tell him... when you are done checking out my tits can you please concentrate on the work issue....

so why aren't woman standing up for themselves, why do they think by sleeping with power guys they will get somewhere in life and now 30 years later they complain, cause that did not help them.....when some one tells you the meeting is in my hotel room, how can you be so stupid to think it's going to be anything else then sex, never in life has any meetings being concluded in hotel rooms with only 2 people...or any auditions... if a film boss tells you my hotel room, you know what's going to be expected from you... why still go...

ESMOD's picture

"the meeting is in my hotel room, how can you be so stupid to think it's going to be anything else then sex, never in life has any meetings being concluded in hotel rooms with only 2 people...or any auditions... if a film boss tells you my hotel room, you know what's going to be expected from you... why still go..."

In a way, there is a bit of a double standard. No one is blaming the women out there that are using their sexuality to get what they want.. only blaming the guys that may have taken advantage of that dynamic. It almost becomes a chicken/egg thing. Would the women have done it if the men hadn't been swayed by it? I am not trying to "blame the victim".. but there certainly ARE women that are absolutely fine with making the trade of their "assets" for access to power, money, film roles.

And.. it does seem that there have been men (and boys) who have also been victimized as well by both men and women so in the end, a lot of it boils down to a lot of people taking advantage of people who have less power.

fairyo's picture

Invading someone's personal space is an issue for both men and women. When I was a young woman sexual innuendo and harassment was a given, you just had to put up with it however creepy it made you feel. I was told I only got my first job because I wore a mini skirt to the interview and had good legs. I felt a little flattered by this, and could easily have used it as a tool for future success, however the few years I spent working in that office completely creeped me out, and the incidents (which could be seen as quite mild) were too numerous to list here. Eventually I left because office work was not for me.
I was brought up to have the utmost respect and regard for my own body- but I knew lots of women who were not and saw their feminine wiles as a means to advancement, which I felt was completely wrong.
I am glad these women have spoken out- they tried to get ahead in a male dominated world by giving in to the demands of predatory men. Not all men are predators of course, and women are equally capable of exploiting men, but that is not the issue.
We should be teaching children to respect and value their own bodies, regardless of gender, and respect other people's bodies in turn.

Aniki-Moderator's picture

I find it sad that so many were (and still are) too frightened to name or even confront their predators. Hopefully, the candor of those able to come forward and talk about their horrific experiences will give courage to others.

Despite being 52, I was lucky enough to have forward-thinking parents who raised me to be strong and independent. When I was 20, I had a male manager who made unwelcome sexual advances and I told him in no uncertain terms that it was completely unacceptable. That didn't stop him. A couple of days later, he actually had the audacity to grab my arse. His mistake. I whirled around, grabbed him by the shirt front, slammed him up against the wall, and told him that if he EVER touched me again he better call the ambulance first. I reported him to the other manager (also male) who reported it to HIS boss. The jerk was fired before the day was over.

Sadly, not all women are physically capable of defending themselves. I wish EVERYONE would speak up - regardless of gender - without fear of reprisal. I know men who have been sexually harassed by women AND other men - 2 were sexually assaulted - and I am the only one who knows.

BethAnne's picture

Reading these posts shows just how much further things need to progress. It is depressing. This will change little except expose the victims who come forward to press scrutiny and a lifetime of being told that they shouldn’t have been so naive or that they were not really assulted ‘that’ badly and just wanted publicity. Even when multiple people tell stories so similar about the same person it is the victim who must be at fault.